Fear in the God Fearing

[Paladin]

p.s. your theory of projection is nothing new, nor is it necessarily valid.

What do you think of Terror Management Theory, specifically Mortality Salience?

 

[wil]

I've been to worship services at various denominational churches and have never heard a message that seemed to provoke fear. Apart from OT references to a vindictive G-d (that noone has quoted), I'm not sure what the substance of this thread it.

You've missed out on hell and damnation? No fire and brimstone preachers telling you the sins of reading about Buddha or Krishna? Try a good evangelical or Southern Baptist...

I remember the preacher in Alaska calling up one of the Deacons and then removing his deaconhood and ostracizing him because he saw his car in front of a bar..a den of inequity...

And then the ever classic..."What if you are wrong?" "You better declare Jesus your lord and saviour or you'll burn in eternity"

You weren't married in the church...well then your not married and after you do get married by a priest you'll need that ******* son christened/baptised....

Here in the states fear based churches are common... less than they used to be but they are out there.

Repent ye sinners...we are all unworthy...

 

[c0de]

What do you think of Terror Management Theory, specifically Mortality Salience?

A clear and simple example which would contradict their position is the existence of the phenomenon of suicide. All these theories which rely on the basic foundation: that a person's mortality is uniformly an exhibitor of anguish ignore the examples of anguish via existence. They just assume that everyone wants to live, and life is always better then death.

Personally, my biggest complaint with the concept of "existential anguish" is how warped this idea has gotten through time. Everyone assumes that existential despair came about in philosophy through a contemplation of death. But in fact, it came about through a contemplation of life! It is often forgotten that the whole idea of "existential anguish" was born in the hearts of men of faith, not men of disbelief as is often assumed these days.

Atheists think they have some monopoly on despair... and this, I find adorable.

 

[Paladin]

A clear and simple example which would contradict their position is the existence of the phenomenon of suicide. All these theories which rely on the basic foundation: that a person's mortality is uniformly an exhibitor of anguish ignore the examples of anguish via existence. They just assume that everyone wants to live, and life is always better then death.

Personally, my biggest complaint with the concept of "existential anguish" is how warped this idea has gotten through time. Everyone assumes that existential despair came about in philosophy through a contemplation of death. But in fact, it came about through a contemplation of life! It is often forgotten that the whole idea of "existential anguish" was born in the hearts of men of faith, not men of disbelief as is often assumed these days.

Atheists think they have some monopoly on despair... and this, I find adorable.

LOL! I thought the emo kids had a corner on this.

Interesting response, thank you, I hadn't really considered that angle. My Daughter has written her thesis on Terror Management Theory in Relationships. I need to read more of her paper (66pages) and I do see some credence to the idea that one can cleave to religion to avoid existential angst.
Considering your take on it though, I imagine it really does take a certain personality type. I have seen those who have suffered panic attacks because of this kind of anguish, and I find personally the thought of death to hold certain...curiosities, layers of response ranging from the thought of freedom to sentimental remembrances to anxiety and even exhilaration.

Obviously a broad brush approach to talking about it all is inappropriate.

 

[c0de]

LOL! I thought the emo kids had a corner on this.

don't even get me started on them emos man

I do see some credence to the idea that one can cleave to religion to avoid existential angst.

That is the whole problem, the whole idea of "existentialism" was originally associated with the many dilemmas of existence, not the possibilities of non-existence as it is thought of today (which is by definition liberating! contrary to what it is presented as, proof: check the thread on this very forum titled "nothing"). Think about it, if a person dies and becomes nothing, then what the hell do we have to worry about? Nietzshe was basically an idiot (a plagerizing one, at that). The guy peaked into what a real "abyss" would be like and turned tail and ran.

The real existentialists came before him, Kierkegaard for example, and Dostoveyeski... these same thinkers who the atheists think are their heroes, were always gearing themselves against their nihlistic tendencies. Because ultimately, it is the atheist who uses atheism as an escape to avoid existential angst, not the real believer.

Sometimes, seriously man... I think I'm living in bizarro world or something.

 

[Snoopy]

OK, all except you, hero.

Chris

Er, and me. And I'm not a hero. Maybe speaking in the "we"...?

Fear of death is not inevitable, death is.

s.

 

[path_of_one]

Fear of death is not inevitable, death is.

s.

Ditto.

"Death is just another path... one that we all must take."

Gandalf in TLOR

LOL- had to throw in a nerdy reference. Don't even know if I'm quoting correctly.

 

[Netti-Netti]

You've missed out on hell and damnation? No fire and brimstone preachers telling you the sins of reading about Buddha or Krishna? Try a good evangelical or Southern Baptist...

I did miss those. Based on your home decor and your presence here, they obviously didn't get through to you!

 

[Paladin]

That is the whole problem, the whole idea of "existentialism" was originally associated with the many dilemmas of existence, not the possibilities of non-existence as it is thought of today (which is by definition liberating! contrary to what it is presented as, proof: check the thread on this very forum titled "nothing"). Think about it, if a person dies and becomes nothing, then what the hell do we have to worry about? Nietzshe was basically an idiot (a plagerizing one, at that). The guy peaked into what a real "abyss" would be like and turned tail and ran.

The real existentialists came before him, Kierkegaard for example, and Dostoveyeski... these same thinkers who the atheists think are their heroes, were always gearing themselves against their nihlistic tendencies. Because ultimately, it is the atheist who uses atheism as an escape to avoid existential angst, not the real believer.

Sometimes, seriously man... I think I'm living in bizarro world or something.

Did you know it was Soren's birthday today?
And yes, you are living in a bizarro world, where did you think you were going to end up?

Actually, staring into the abyss can be refreshing

 

[Paladin]

Ditto.

"Death is just another path... one that we all must take."

Gandalf in LOTR

LOL- had to throw in a nerdy reference. Don't even know if I'm quoting correctly.

Fixed...

 

[c0de]

Did you know it was Soren's birthday today?

Interesting... so he was born on 05/05 1813..

1+8=9
1+3=4

9-5= 5 !!

(lol, just kiddin')

And yes, you are living in a bizarro world, where did you think you were going to end up?

So... is this the same as that "earth prime, infinite crises..." whatever???

I guess I should keep an eye out for Superboy Prime then yea.. that dude was sick!

Actually, staring into the abyss can be refreshing

yea, kinda like hittin' the reset switch on your PC after like a month... theres always that moment when you're not completely sure if its gonna boot back up (lol)

 

[dailogue is the best]

I think I do understand you. I can follow your reading and interpretation, your justification for giving it value. Do you really need Allah to be a decent person, to stop you lying, stealing, cheating, hurting etc?...

Well, Toa, God says:

[91:7] The soul and Him who created it.
[91:8] Then showed it what is evil and what is good.
[91:9] Successful is one who redeems it.[91:10] Failing is one who neglects it.

You may be proud of saying that you can do without refering to God, but let me say to you, Tao, that it is God who created in you those feelings of knowing the right from the wrong, either you admit it or not. Nothing exists by itself.

God created in us the criteria to show us the right from the wrong. It is natural and innate in us. It is God 's creation..

I need Allah because I cant know Him, and not love Him...I cant know Him, and ignore Him...I am a submitter/Muslim...I am with Him in moments of my joy or sadness...

I am just a man. An ordinary man. I will live my life and die then probably be incinerated, (though I would prefer a burial at sea, and to feed a few lobsters, crabs etc). I have a large extended family, my genetic heritage is as assured as anyones. I have produced two children, my biological emperitive has been met. I have loved often yet never hated. I have begged, borrowed and stolen. I have given, selflessly, and been brought to justice. I have helped some whom it has been within my ability to help, and others I have passed by. I am no 'saint' but I am also an infrequent sinner by any but the most judgemental standard. I do not need religion to be a reasonably good and very ordinary man.

What can I say, Tao. You are not created in vain, brother. You are created for a purpose. The purpose of religion, Tao, is not to make you an ordinary man...The purpose of religion, Tao, is to make you connect that creator...to transcend you material status, and to know that your life doest stop in a grave..It is your body who stops, but your spirit gets free, Tao, and meets Him...What have you prepared for the meeting, Tao?! a complete denial without any trying to know?!!

Enjoy the amazing poem about death from Alghazali:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MBhVoTmTGU&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=7MBhVoTmTGU&feature=related

 

[17th Angel]

The purpose of man is to live his life.... Not waste his life.

...The purpose of religion lol... Oh that's "fresh".

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

For everyone who says they are not afraid of death: uh, I honor the fact that you believe that, and I'll take your word for it. But, a person doesn't know what they've repressed, and I would venture the thought that if fear of death isn't the driving force behind human evolution I don't know what is. What drove us to develop more and more elaborate defensive structures? What drove us to invent more and more devastating weapons systems? What drives us to lock the doors and windows at night before we go to sleep? It doesn't necessarily have to be fear of one's own death, how about the fear of losing one's children, or spouse, or parents?

Chris

 

[wil]

For everyone who says they are not afraid of death: uh, I honor the fact that you believe that, and I'll take your word for it. But, a person doesn't know what they've repressed, and I would venture the thought that if fear of death isn't the driving force behind human evolution I don't know what is. What drove us to develop more and more elaborate defensive structures? What drove us to invent more and more devastating weapons systems? What drives us to lock the doors and windows at night before we go to sleep? It doesn't necessarily have to be fear of one's own death, how about the fear of losing one's children, or spouse, or parents?

Chris

Having buried my mother and father in law, my dad, my sister, three cousins, one that died with her three children in a house fire...plenty of grief to go around. But I don't walk in fear, of my death or of my children or my mothers or my sisters.

 

[c0de]

But, a person doesn't know what they've repressed, and I would venture the thought that if fear of death isn't the driving force behind human evolution I don't know what is. What drove us to develop more and more elaborate defensive structures? What drove us to invent more and more devastating weapons systems? What drives us to lock the doors and windows at night before we go to sleep? It doesn't necessarily have to be fear of one's own death, how about the fear of losing one's children, or spouse, or parents?

You need to let go of that which is not permanent... The harder you hold on, the more violent the separation.

 

[c0de]

^^ im pretty sure that is a quote im subconsciously paraphrasing from somewhere...

 

[path_of_one]

You need to let go of that which is not permanent... The harder you hold on, the more violent the separation.

That is also what I would say. Fear is based on my attachment to a sense of permanence that does not actually exist.

When I accept my own impermanence, and all those around me, then I am free. I can enjoy every moment for what it is, and not worry that it will not last.

Evolution may drive our body, but I believe the human spirit (or mind, if you would rather call it that) is capable of transcending our instincts. We are able to train our bodies and brains to react in certain ways. The Buddha, the Christ... we have teachings that assist us in doing this. I have found Buddhist teachings most useful in this endeavor, as they are more detailed.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

It is often forgotten that the whole idea of "existential anguish" was born in the hearts of men of faith...

That's a good point.

Here's a quote:

He who is educated by dread [anxiety] is educated by possibility...when such a person, therefore, goes out from the school of possibility, and knows more thoroughly than a child knows the alphabet that he demands of life absolutely nothing, and that terror, perdition, annihilation, dwell nest door to every man, and has learned the profitable lesson that every dread which alarms may the next instant be fact, he will then interpret reality differently, he will extol reality, and even when it rests upon him heavily will remember that after all it is far, far lighter than the possibility was.

Kierkegaard, Dread, p. 140

Schooled by dread. That's an interesting way to put it. And SK had in mind, I think, a complete surrender, a total facing up to impotence and dread in the process of, essentially, dying to self in a very Pauline sense.

Atheists think they have some monopoly on despair... and this, I find adorable.

Thanks, I enjoyed that!

Chris

 

[ciberpy]

I see individuals who speak against having fear, or against judgmental preaching, but that also judge and speak against trusting and placing faith in people as a necessary virtue to follow... or for themselves claim a virtue in moderating others. The fear of death is there even as it is undesired and denied. Perhaps in a lesser form: the fear of having property stolen, dishonored agreements, being raped, being lied to, placed in hell, having off topic threads, etc... but that is a concern of a day to day loss. An entity that guards their door with threats of violence may likewise suggest that others are living with an existential angst, but the action and the claim are disjoint. The degree of faith placed in others is a bit of a shibboleth... a facet of the golden rule. The discriminator is real, tangible, and within one's own power.

I see two similar tones in the word 'fear': 1. to be afraid, and 2. to trust and follow. On the one hand people do not place faith in others because they are afraid of what could happen. On the other hand people can submit and place faith in each other despite the required uncertainty or lack of control in it. There is a potential for hell in any relationship. There are choices of how to navigate the pit of fear. Being afraid is not exactly a bad thing... gambling, or taking risks without an estimation or a fear of consequence is a very fast way to ruin. Experimenting with drugs for example does not exactly lead a person to living longer.