Bolivian Glacier Disappears

[citizenzen]

So you admit that this more about energy than the environment?

The problem is the greenhouse effect. The solution is finding an alternative to fossil fuels.

The problem within the problem: fossil fuels produce a tremendous amount of energy at relatively low cost. It will be very difficult to wean us off the stuff.

 

[Avi]

So you admit that this more about energy than the environment?

Energy and the environment are inextricably linked. This has been the case since the invention of the internal combustion engine (surprise !! ) in the early 1900's.

I actually see a potential positive coming out of this dilemma. I think new industries could be spawned from this problem which could provide solutions to both the energy and environmental sides, but first the problem needs to be acknowledged and understood !!

From my point of view the sad thing is that industries, particularly large ones, like tobacco, automotive and oil, usually try to cover up and protect their businesses before they ultimately have to admit their problems. We have seen this scenario repeat over and over. Remember Dow and the breast implants ? Remember Union Carbide and Bhopal ? Remember NASA and the Challenger ? Russia and Chernobyl ? Nothing new, human nature is not easily changed.

 

[seattlegal]

The problem is the greenhouse effect. The solution is finding an alternative to fossil fuels.

The problem within the problem: fossil fuels produce a tremendous amount of energy at relatively low cost. It will be very difficult to wean us off the stuff.

And just how is this carbon-trading scheme, which is obviously designed to keep green energy prices high, going to achieve this?

 

[citizenzen]

And just how is this carbon-trading scheme, which is obviously designed to keep green energy prices high, going to achieve this?

Sneaky... trying to switch the argument to focus on one proposed approach at dealing with the problem. Nobody here as suggested the problem will be "solved" by the method you suggest.

There is no one solution. Like most issues, we'll try throwing a number of things against the wall and seeing which ones stick... just like we normally do. As we increase our understanding of the problem we'll refine the methods used to counter it.

 

[iBrian]

SG, just a quick question - do you believe that humanity is having no affect on the earth and its climate due to emission of so-called Greenhouse Gases?

 

[seattlegal]

SG, just a quick question - do you believe that humanity is having no affect on the earth and its climate due to emission of so-called Greenhouse Gases?

I don't know how much of an affect it has. However, I see many human-caused pollution concerns that we know are causing harm that are out of the spotlight due to this CO2 hubbub. I can see the highly politically and emotionally charged nature of the CO2 question, and I know that these things can easily lead to biased sampling fallacies (either consciously manipulated and/or subconsciously screened out of conscious recognition) when it comes to scientifically investigating the matter. People will see what they want to see. When these things happen, sound science becomes vulnerable to error, or downright fraudulent falsification of data in order to protect a cherished belief/cause. Of course, there are those out there who will use the emotional and political charge attached to this matter to further their own ends. I see plenty of evidence of that connected to this CO2 controversy, but not much real, testable evidence that proves that increased CO2 causes (keyword) global warming. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that an increase of atmospheric CO2 is an effect (keyword) of warmer ocean temperatures, but not as strong causal mechanism.

 

[shawn]

The biggest absorber of CO2 would have been (has been in the past) the oceans with all their plant life, but due to pollution that has been slowly killed off.
Our polluting ways are a problem and do need some kind of remedy.
I have heard of sound ideas for alternative energy (dense plasma focus fusion for one, based on boron as a source material) but greed on the highest levels has prevented these ideas from going very far.

 

[citizenzen]

...but greed on the highest levels has prevented these ideas from going very far.

When the people lead, the leaders will follow.

Perhaps we have not given our leaders enough reason to get behind a solution... or to even acknowledge that the problem exists.

 

[citizenzen]

I just happened to be on National Geographic's website and completely by accident ran across this article about a remarkably well preserved mammoth calf. Since we had been talking about "flash-frozen" mammoths I found it interesting to read how this one managed to remain so well preserved.

"At the end of the autopsy, while Fisher and his colleagues were suturing up her little body, he also had a revelation about her peculiar smell. His mind at last relaxing after the intense effort of the past three days, he suddenly remembered his experiment with the draft horse and the smell that its bloated chunks of flesh, naturally pickled by lactobacilli, emitted as they bobbed on the surface of the pond. Lyuba had the same smell. Finally, her superb state of preservation made sense. She had literally been pickled after she died, which protected her from rot once her body was exposed again, thousands of years later. The lactic acid produced by the microbes also could have caused the odd bone distortion and muscle separation that Fisher had noticed during the autopsy, and perhaps even encouraged the formation of vivianite crystals by freeing phosphate from her bones."

The full article can be found here: Ice Baby for anybody interested.

Sorry for rubbing it in.

 

[seattlegal]

I just happened to be on National Geographic's website and completely by accident ran across this article about a remarkably well preserved mammoth calf. Since we had been talking about "flash-frozen" mammoths I found it interesting to read how this one managed to remain so well preserved.

"At the end of the autopsy, while Fisher and his colleagues were suturing up her little body, he also had a revelation about her peculiar smell. His mind at last relaxing after the intense effort of the past three days, he suddenly remembered his experiment with the draft horse and the smell that its bloated chunks of flesh, naturally pickled by lactobacilli, emitted as they bobbed on the surface of the pond. Lyuba had the same smell. Finally, her superb state of preservation made sense. She had literally been pickled after she died, which protected her from rot once her body was exposed again, thousands of years later. The lactic acid produced by the microbes also could have caused the odd bone distortion and muscle separation that Fisher had noticed during the autopsy, and perhaps even encouraged the formation of vivianite crystals by freeing phosphate from her bones."

The full article can be found here: Ice Baby for anybody interested.

Sorry for rubbing it in.

Yeah, I linked to and commented on that article in post #49 of this thread.

 

[citizenzen]

Yeah, I linked to and commented on that article in post #49 of this thread.

Well then... double sorry for rubbing it in.

 

[Avi]

Despite some comments about Obama on a parallel thread, he has shown real leadership in his comments about global warming, cap and trade and Kyoto:

On November 17, 2008 President-elect Barack Obama clarified, in a talk recorded for YouTube, that the US will enter a cap and trade system to limit Global Warming.[49]

Ref: Emissions trading - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And, here is another Obama quote about Kyoto:

When the Kyoto Protocol was put forward, the United States opted out of it, as did China and some other countries--and I think that was a mistake, particularly because the United States...has been the biggest carbon producer. China is now becoming the biggest carbon producer because its population is so large. And so we need to bring an international agreement together very soon.

It doesn't make sense for the United States to sign Kyoto because Kyoto is about to end [in 2012]. So instead what my administration is doing is preparing for the next round, which is--there will be discussions in Copenhagen at the end of this year. And what we want to do is to prepare an agenda both in the United States and work internationally so that we can start making progress on these issues.
​

Ref: Obama Challenged on Climate During Turkey Trip : TreeHugger
​

 

[citizenzen]

Despite some comments about Obama on a parallel thread, he has shown real leadership in his comments about global warming, cap and trade and Kyoto:

I'm waiting for a little leadership in his actions. The is some progress in today's news...

Obama Drafts California to Raise Fuel Efficiency

If the proposal is enacted, by 2016 the fleet average requirement would be 35.5 miles per gallon, said the official, who declined to be named. Currently the CAFE standard is 27.5 mpg for cars and 24 mpg for light trucks.

The 35.5 mpg standard would be achieved four years earlier than under the current CAFE law, which requires a 35 mpg standard in model year 2020.

=============================================

But, you'll have to excuse my lack of enthusiasm over this rather meager improvement.

 

[Avi]

http://www.reuters.com/article/mnCarbonEmissions/idUS256433619320090519
If the proposal is enacted, by 2016 the fleet average requirement would be 35.5 miles per gallon, said the official, who declined to be named. Currently the CAFE standard is 27.5 mpg for cars and 24 mpg for light trucks.

The 35.5 mpg standard would be achieved four years earlier than under the current CAFE law, which requires a 35 mpg standard in model year 2020.

That is a great example of leadership change with a huge impact. With hybrids currently able to do 45-50 mph and Toyota having over 15 years of experience making these vehicles, it is such a logical approach. Of course Bush would have never thought of it.

 

[seattlegal]

Well then... double sorry for rubbing it in.

It's alright.

 

[Janz]

I'm waiting for a little leadership in his actions. The is some progress in today's news...

Obama Drafts California to Raise Fuel Efficiency

If the proposal is enacted, by 2016 the fleet average requirement would be 35.5 miles per gallon, said the official, who declined to be named. Currently the CAFE standard is 27.5 mpg for cars and 24 mpg for light trucks.

The 35.5 mpg standard would be achieved four years earlier than under the current CAFE law, which requires a 35 mpg standard in model year 2020.

=============================================

But, you'll have to excuse my lack of enthusiasm over this rather meager improvement.

I am still confused why everyone is clapping over this. My hubby is still driving his 1993 Suzuki Swift and it gets 40-50 mpg with over 200,000 miles on it. We paid $ 8,000 for it and then it disappeared from the market. SUV's and gas guzzling fancy pick up trucks were all the rage. Now those same people are drooling over the Swift but still can't buy a new one. It has been a great commuter car because we live in a county where public transportation is a joke and no such things as bike trails or lanes for that matter. You risk your life if you ride your bike on these roads with no shoulders..esp since the yahoos around here take pride in clipping bike riders with their pick up trucks. For those of you who love vulgar libertarian government where taxes are low, services poor and you can't count on law enforcement for your own personal safety; El Paso County in Colorado is the place for you.

I digress..but as long as Americans think it is their god given right to drive Hummers, glaciers will keep melting.

 

[shawn]

Even if we didn't exist the glaciers would still melt.
We just wouldn't be around to raise a ruckus about it.

 

[Avi]

I am continuing to do some literature review of recent peer review work and I am sorry to report that the story is becoming more serious than previously believed. It appears that we are in for continued loss of glaciers, sea level rise, additional carbon dioxide release, loss of Amazon rainforest, and approaching the "tipping point" :

GLOBAL WARMING:
Projections of Climate Change Go From Bad to Worse, Scientists Report

COPENHAGEN--Meeting 2 years after the most recent report of the authoritative Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), some 2000 scientists delivered a consistent if not unequivocal message here last week on the state of Earth's warming climate. "The worst-case IPCC projections, or even worse, are being realized," said the event's co-chair, University of Copenhagen biological oceanographer Katherine Richardson. Emissions are soaring, projections of sea level rise are higher than expected, and climate impacts around the world are appearing with increasing frequency, she told delegates in the opening session of the 3-day meeting.

The meeting's 58 sessions were grouped into three general themes: physical climate science, prospects for mitigation, and impacts and adaptation. On the prognosis for the climate system, Richardson warned that there's "no good news." Some scientists criticized how the 2007 IPCC report addressed the loss of the world's ice sheets, because it explicitly omitted calculations of the movement of glaciers, which at the time was poorly understood (Science, 9 February 2007, p. 754). Two years later, the picture is clearer. Konrad Steffen of the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences in Boulder, Colorado, said that the loss of Greenland ice was accelerating, with the speedup of the glaciers contributing up to two-thirds of the loss.

Another question left unanswered by the last IPCC report was whether the Antarctic ice sheets were losing mass. University of California (UC), Irvine, glaciologist Eric Rignot said that more recent data from satellites and field studies "very clearly" show that the ice sheets are shrinking. Rignot said the accelerating movement of glaciers in Greenland and Antarctica would, on the current trajectory, lead to sea level rise of 1 m or more by 2100--flooding coastal residents around the world. New modeling work presented by Jonathan Bamber of the University of Bristol, U.K., showed that a complete disintegration of the Greenland sheet would require a 6°C rise in global temperatures, double the conventional wisdom. But before the audience could digest what sounded like a rare piece of good news, Bamber added that a 15% loss to the sheet would translate into a 1-m rise in sea level. "[That] is a horrendous prospect whichever way you cut it," Bamber told Science.

Scientists know that warming temperatures could unlock this carbon, making the yearly effort to cut the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide "that much tougher" in the coming decades, Field says. Modeling of carbon frozen in soils remains primitive, he said. But new findings from field studies suggest that a type of soil known as Yedoma sediments could be especially problematic because it decomposes easily and 30% of its emissions are methane, a potent greenhouse gas. Plus, he said, scientists have been unable to find evidence for the hypothesis that some natural carbon sinks like forests may be increasing their ability to take in CO2 as the planet warms.

A number of sessions examined the frightening possibility that warming temperatures could trigger catastrophic tipping points, such as the loss of the Amazon rainforest through drought, which would create a vicious feedback. For example, modelers from the U.K.'s Met Office presented new data showing that even a global cessation of greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 could lead to a loss of up to 40% of the Amazon rainforest. "We thought we didn't need to worry till we got to 3°C of warming," says Pope (see graphic). Tim Lenton, an Earth systems scientist from the University of East Anglia, U.K., describes the change in looking at deforestation as going from "high-impact, low-probability events [to] high-impact, larger probability events." Atmospheric scientist Allan Gadian of the University of Leeds, U.K., says that the model "lacks credibility" because it fails to reproduce the current climate. But Chris Jones of the Met Office says the model closely replicates 20th century Amazon rain patterns.

Ref:
Science 20 March 2009:
Vol. 323. no. 5921, pp. 1546 - 1547
DOI: 10.1126/science.323.5921.1546

 

[shawn]

Years ago people would joke about how if breathing could be taxed they would do it.

Well, we know that J.P. Morgan discontinued funding to Tesla's wireless power distribution technology as (to quote Morgan) "where will I put a meter".
He wanted to make sure people weren't getting power without paying for it.

I see this whole carbon fiasco as nothing more than a means to an end.
That being, setting precedent on taxing biologically necessary gases.
If the globe continues to heat up, then sealed in cities, both underground and underwater aren't improbable.
Residents will then also have to pay for gases they use and emit.
This carbon tax business is the precedent setter for such future scenarios.

If it will get people to cut down on the pollution which we create, then the fiction and hype surrounding such a ploy is then somewhat justifiable.
Although I do not condone the usage of such duplicity, I now expect it at every turn.
Maybe some good can come from it, but it does set the stage in a questionable fashion.

 

[shawn]

Just wanted to post another global warming update.
Looking outside today....what do I see.....?
SNOW
Explain that.