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Shibolet
Guest
Great conclusion! Indeed, Jesus was not a god but a Jew intoxicated with God. That's the same word Nietzsche used with reference to Baruch de Spinoza: A Philosopher intoxicated with God.
Great conclusion! Indeed, Jesus was not a god but a Jew intoxicated with God. That's the same word Nietzsche used with reference to Baruch de Spinoza: A Philosopher intoxicated with God.
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Shibolet
Guest
You are totally mistaken by confusing the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with Zeus the father of demigods. Jesus was a man; a Jewish man. He died indeed but he did not resurrect. Resurrection is not in the agenda of Judaism. (Isa. 26:14; Job 10:21; II Sam. 12:23)
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Shibolet
Guest
Can you prove it? If you can't, let me know and I will prove that he is dead.
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
So if resurrection is not, in your opinion, true then he died? To me that means there are more possibilities than just 1 as you have prescribed.
1. He died. Romans got it right, God enlisted Jesus' prophet-hood for only 3 years.
2. He did not die, Romans placed the wrong man on the cross, and Jesus hid alive for 3ish days (another discussion on the ish part) and did reveal himself after the weekend to his apostles whose story got changed over the next few decades. He then ascended to heaven to await his time for second coming
3. Same as 2. but he lived in self exile hidden from even his family and friends until his natural or unnatural non recorded death happened.
If it is number 2 that is real, then from a Jewish perspective, what makes Mouhammed not possible to be the final messenger before the Messiah's return and establishment of the messianic age? I'm not asking you to accept my POV, just asking does it not seem possible?
Jesus was one of the elohim. The jews didnt recognice him, he was michael the archangel.
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
And how did you arrive at this idea?
Are you indicating it is within the realm of your Muslim belief that Jesus will return? as the Mahdi?
All of these assumptions are based off of not considering Philippians 2.
Here's 14 verses/passages that indicate he is God.
1. John 1:1
2. Revelation 22:13
3. Matthew 28:18
4. John 8:58
5. Zechariah 11:12-13 (See Matthew 26:14-16)
6. Isaiah 7:14
7. Zechariah 9:9 (See Isaiah 44:6 & Matthew 21:1-9)
8. Matthew 14:33
9. Mark 14:5-12
10. John 5:23
11. John 14:8-9
12. John 20:28
13. Revelation 1:8
14. Matthew 28:9
You can make a lot of claims about the Bible: But you need to ask if it works within the context if everything. Jesus saying he wasn't God doesn't fit within the context of all of his words and Philippians 2.
Here's 14 verses/passages that indicate he is God.
1. John 1:1
2. Revelation 22:13
3. Matthew 28:18
4. John 8:58
5. Zechariah 11:12-13 (See Matthew 26:14-16)
6. Isaiah 7:14
7. Zechariah 9:9 (See Isaiah 44:6 & Matthew 21:1-9)
8. Matthew 14:33
9. Mark 14:5-12
10. John 5:23
11. John 14:8-9
12. John 20:28
13. Revelation 1:8
14. Matthew 28:9
You can make a lot of claims about the Bible: But you need to ask if it works within the context if everything. Jesus saying he wasn't God doesn't fit within the context of all of his words and Philippians 2.
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
I think you are stuck on this Mahdi thing. The Hadiths where the Mahdi is mentioned are considered weak by most Islamic Fiqh (schools of thought). Even if someone were to take this Hadith, your question can be answered as no. The Madhi is supposed to be a man whose position in the Islamic world will be to defend it against the great evils. Jesus(PBUH) will return to assist the Mahdi (fulfilling the prophesy of the Messiah (PBUH) fighting to restore the correct religion thing, shib please help me out with this one) from Judaic texts. After this Mouhammed (PBUH) will return (or not depending on differing thoughts), but Jesus' (PBUH) followers (Christians and Jews who hadn't accepted him as a prophet or messiah) will be informed that Islam is the correct religion and Jesus (PBUH) will live the rest of his life as a normal man practicing Islam, (or as a corrector of people's deeds as he did as a prophet, or working to create the prescribed Messianic Era).
The general consensus however, is that Jesus (PBUH) will return and confirm Islam is correct, and all the true Muslims, and former Christians/Jews, will be led by him to defeat the Evil that corrupts the world (think Revelation, but with a happy ending).
Again I welcome any of the other Muslim posters to comment or refute what I say.
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
But why doesn't he say it? Is he trying to confuse people. Seems in the Torah God was very interested in people knowing who he was. If Jesus (PBUH) is God (aka the Creator, YHWH, Jehovah, Allah), why not just say it, especially after he was sentenced or after the supposed crucifixion. To save people like Thomas who did not believe he had come back and needed physical proof. Kinda weird he would be telling his "Chosen people" on the day of Judgement "Haha I tricked you. Too bad you didn't believe me when I came as Jesus because you listened to what I said before. Now you are all going to HELL!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"
Where does this general consensus come from? You mean most Muslims believe that Jesus will return??? Why??? HOW??? Do prophets return? or are you saying reincarnation?? So confused.
Lol...love literalists who don't believe.... too funny.
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
Yes most Muslims agree is what consensus comes from. This is similar to the various denominations of Christianity being because groups find so and so to be true. A prophet will return (possibly 2 depending on the source. Although Mouhammed (PBUH) died, so I don't think he will return personally). No reincarnation. Jesus didn't die, He ascended (same as Christianity on that one), and Allah knows when the world is ready for Jesus' return.
Literalist? I believe in a literal aspect of it. The Bible is a book consisting of several books written by men about a man they greatly admired, from teachings by several generations before writing them. You are telling me there is a reason the apostles didn't write the Gospels? and that when they did their teachings, their full complex meaning was implemented on the next person who was able to keep the story completely correct without a group of people to remind each other of the words used? And in all that, the people who actually follow what this amazing book says is not actually following the meaning because the real meaning isn't what it clearly states? I cannot grasp your line of thought. If the literal aspect (except for the parables which are generally quite clear) isn't there, Is it not a book meant to deceive? God gave us logic so that we would be fooled into hell? That doesn't sound right...
A Cup Of Tea
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So this is your summary of Christian belief?
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
I think you are reading too much literalism into my statement. I think Christians can believe whatever they want. So much in fact there are hundreds if not thousands of denominations. For what I wrote to be a "summary" of their beliefs it would mean it applies to all Christians, which it cannot based on some groups not believing Jesus (PBUH) as God, some that don't even believe literal Son of God, some that believe he died for all sins, some that say he died as a sacrifice for all who want to use it to wash away sins they confess.
My point in this discussion is simply that the literal aspect of the Bible doesn't make logical sense If the only commandment to be followed is believe Jesus (PBUH) is God. Jesus (PBUH) never proclaims he is God, so if he is, he has an intention to hide it from those who would act as Timothy and demand proof or at least a statement of affirmation after he denied it so many times before. The Bible has many passages where Jesus (PBUH) distinguishes himself from God. My belief is that many Christians hang on to these beliefs because they are told that is the way it is. A trait not limited to Christianity.
One must remember.....the Bible makes sense to Christians....the Torah to Jews, the Quran to Muslims...
Saying another's beliefs or spiritual book doesn't make sense is.....obvious. If it made sense to you, you'd be a member of that belief system and not another.
Being surprised that others don't believe the same as ourselves is equally ludicrous.
Interfaith discussion....
Saying another's beliefs or spiritual book doesn't make sense is.....obvious. If it made sense to you, you'd be a member of that belief system and not another.
Being surprised that others don't believe the same as ourselves is equally ludicrous.
Interfaith discussion....
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
I think my situation might be a little different than most you would give this advice to. I lived most of my life as and among people who believed Christianity. I am simply stating that there is a logical error in the literal aspect. To which I personally do not believe can be resolved with what someone is told by a non-scriptural source (ie a pastor, priest etc.) I am not saying it is wrong, I'm saying it is unlikely that the authors would leave out nor that Jesus (PBUH) would not see it necessary for Jesus (PBUH) to proclaim he is God, if he was in fact God. I remember the First commandment (according to KJV english translation) "I am the Lord, Thy God. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me". Of course there is more to it, but here God is very direct. Why does he get so skiddish about proclaiming it on earth. Especially when he is accused of Blasphemy? Couldn't he just proclaim "OK I am God, The Creator." or after his "resurrection" say "Go unto all people and tell them I am the God, Creator, YHWH. Worship me!" And "Mouhammed (PBUH) who is to come in 300ish years is going to proclaim something none of you should believe." just for good measure.
Hi BigJoeNobody –
Funny indeed. That's not a commandment in the Bible.
Actually He does, more than once, but reading the NT from a 20th century mindset, people tend to miss what's being stated implicitly and in some cases explicitly. His audience were in no doubt, which is why they tried to stone Him, more than once.
Nah...it is the same...I know a number who have converted from various religions....enoug to see it go both ways to and from Christianity, Judaism, Islam...
When the one book no longer works for YOU...YOU move on to other belief systems....when one is exploring and finds another text or another belief system resonates more....they consider moving on, or move on.
No difference. the Quran NOW works for you, resonates with you, fits your paradigm, as the bible does for me. I can't say for certain the bible will always be my goto book, or Jesus's always be the teachings I follow.
But for both of us....they are now....just as something else may have been in the past.
When the one book no longer works for YOU...YOU move on to other belief systems....when one is exploring and finds another text or another belief system resonates more....they consider moving on, or move on.
No difference. the Quran NOW works for you, resonates with you, fits your paradigm, as the bible does for me. I can't say for certain the bible will always be my goto book, or Jesus's always be the teachings I follow.
But for both of us....they are now....just as something else may have been in the past.
A Cup Of Tea
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You aren't that special really, you are one person who don't understand. Either you don't have the necessary knowledge/understanding or you are just smarter then all the Christians who haven't figured out that Islam is correct. Which do you think it is?
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
The "smarter then (than**) all the Christians" would denote the idea that I see Christians as not smart or dumb, therefore a negative view. That isn't what I'm saying. Not realizing the faults or able to make sense of them isn't being dumb, it is simply unconsidered by most Christians (just because I know it will come up... THAT I KNOW! ... that being said I was 1 of them.) There are Christians who have thought of these things and have at least some kind of answers to them, to the point they still believe. And then there are people (larger part) who just live with "it ain't perfect, but I'll believe the parts I want to." These tend to be those weak on knowledge and faith and morals (talking purely Christian morals not generic western or societal morals) Although wil seems very defensive, I don't think he is any less smart than I. And I'm sure he has worked through the issues I have presented, same with Thomas and any other Christian here. I simply am bringing up the questions through statements of how I see it. If they can explain, that's great. If they want to leave it alone, fine also.
So I'll do the very basic version of what I stated earlier.
How come Jesus (PBUH) doesn't come out and openly say He is God and to worship him?
How come he denies so many times being God, if he really is?
How come his charactaristics of being indirect with his statements is completely different from those presented in the OT?
How come he didn't warn of someone coming that would speak of his greatness, but not call him God that would come to encompass a large portion of the world's population?