Why is Christianity loosing the cultural war ?

[bob x]

Can we try and avoid outright accusations of lying, please? I'm sure there are less confrontational ways or disagreeing.

No, not in this case.
"Disagreeing" is a term that is used about questions of opinion. The contents of legislation are a matter of public record, and his statements were flatly falsehoods. The term "mistake" could be used if he was unaware of the falsity of his statements, but he has been made aware, and continues to propagate falsehoods intentionally and maliciously.

 

[soleil10]

No, not in this case.
"Disagreeing" is a term that is used about questions of opinion. The contents of legislation are a matter of public record, and his statements were flatly falsehoods. The term "mistake" could be used if he was unaware of the falsity of his statements, but he has been made aware, and continues to propagate falsehoods intentionally and maliciously.

How can you say, every word I wrote is a lie ?
For instance, you were not aware of the final version of the law and did not know about the rule of evidence. Meanwhile you kept accusing me, it was not there and You did not even apologize when it was posted.

You did no disagree with my point about Canada.

I am correct when I write that the congress refused to define sexual orientation. This open the door to protecting many strange behaviors

Sexual orientations are listed in the APA's "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders," Fourth Edition, Text Revision (Washington: American Psychiatric Association, 2000), pp. 566-582 (DSM-IV), which is used by physicians, psychologists, social workers, nurses, and psychiatrists throughout the U.S. It is considered the dictionary of mental disorders.

Among those sexual orientations being protected by S.909 (and HR1913) are these:
Apotemnophilia - sexual arousal associated with the stump(s) of an Amputee
Asphyxophilia - sexual gratification derived from activities that involve oxygen deprivation through hanging, strangulation, or other means
Autogynephilia - the sexual arousal of a man by his own perception of himself as a woman or dressed as a woman
Bisexual - the capacity to feel erotic attraction toward, or to engage in sexual interaction with, both males and females
Coprophilia - sexual arousal associated with feces
Exhibitionism - the act of exposing one’s genitals to an unwilling observer to obtain sexual gratification
Fetishism/Sexual Fetishism - obtaining sexual excitement primarily or exclusively from an inanimate object or a particular part of the body
Frotteurism - approaching an unknown woman from the rear and pressing or rubbing the penis against her buttocks
Heterosexuality - the universal norm of sexuality with those of the opposite sex
Homosexual/Gay/Lesbian - people who form sexual relationships primarily or exclusively with members of their own gender
Gender Identity Disorder - a strong and persistent cross-gender identification, which is the desire to be, or the insistence that one is, or the other sex, "along with" persistent discomfort about one’s assigned sex or a sense of the inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex
Gerontosexuality - distinct preference for sexual relationships primarily or exclusively with an elderly partner
Incest - sex with a sibling or parent
Kleptophilia - obtaining sexual excitement from stealing
Klismaphilia - erotic pleasure derived from enemas
Necrophilia - sexual arousal and/or activity with a corpse
Partialism - A fetish in which a person is sexually attracted to a specific body part exclusive of the person
Pedophilia - Sexual activity with a prepubescent child (generally age 13 years or younger). The individual with pedophilia must be age 16 years or older and at least 5 years older than the child. For individuals in late adolescence with pedophilia, no precise age difference is specified, and clinical judgment must be used; both the sexual maturity of the child and the age difference must be taken into account; the adult may be sexually attracted to opposite sex, same sex, or prefer either
Prostitution - the act or practice of offering sexual stimulation or intercourse for money
Sexual Masochism - obtaining sexual gratification by being subjected to pain or humiliation
Sexual Sadism - the intentional infliction of pain or humiliation on another person in order to achieve sexual excitement
Telephone Scatalogia - sexual arousal associated with making or receiving obscene phone calls
Toucherism - characterized by a strong desire to touch the breast or genitals of an unknown woman without her consent; often occurs in conjunction with other paraphilia
Transgenderism - an umbrella term referring to and/or covering transvestitism, drag queen/king, and transsexualism
Transsexual - a person whose gender identity is different from his or her anatomical gender
Transvestite - a person who is sexually stimulated or gratified by wearing the clothes of the other gender
Transvestic Fetishism - intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving cross-dressing
Urophilia - sexual arousal associated with urine
Voyeurism - obtaining sexual arousal by observing people without their consent when they are undressed or engaged in sexual activity
Zoophilia/Bestiality - engaging in sexual activity with animals

To protect a "sexual orientation" under S.909 (and HR1913) - while leaving that term undefined -- is to protect this whole range of bizarre sexual behaviors. It is to normalize by federal law what are still considered to be mental disorders (paraphilias) by the American Psychiatric Association.

 

[wil]

Are you saying that Christianity is loosing the cultural war because of me ?

It is both your perception of the world and its issues and the world's perception of your thoughts on these issues.

Yes I believe it is a segment of honest G!d fearing Christians that see problems at every turn, that if they can't find a problem look under a rock for one or create something to complain about that cause the rest of society to look at them and say....why, why would I want to join a group like that...and this same group has driven folks away from their congregations looking for something else.

(of course this is my perception, and something I have to work on. As I cannot see the benefit in this attitude, but my belief system says it is all good)

They say Mother Theresa didn't look at a starving or dying baby and see a starving or dying baby, she held in her hands a child of G!d, the image of G!d, the manifestation of G!d. She looked beyond the beauracracy of local and national gov'ts and the church and one on one honored and cared for the individual that was in front of her.

I think if we quit worrying about who married who, who's doing who, and learned to see G!d, see the Christ in everyone, if we put on the mind of Christ as called to do, we'd slow down on the judging, and whining, and work on our own growth....and the world would come to our door to support our endeavors.

 

[wil]

If this is a list of disorders did you notice that heterosexuality is one of them?

Yes it is the norm, but in the US Obesity is also the norm...sooo interesting.

This list either relegates heterosexuality to the level of disorder or releases the rest from them!

 

[soleil10]

If this is a list of disorders did you notice that heterosexuality is one of them?
Yes it is the norm, but in the US Obesity is also the norm...sooo interesting.
This list either relegates heterosexuality to the level of disorder or releases the rest from them!

You cant really say that. This is just a small section listing sexual orientations according to this APA organization. It is extracted from within a larger book that I do no have.

In any case it shows how stupid our Congress is to create a select class of hate crimes based on sexual orientations. It is the same with redefining the centuries old institution of marriage without creating a different name for it. It violates the right of others by force and creates total confusion. Now marriage can be anything. Any group with different sexual preference can claim marriage under the pretext of equal right.

If the state does not care what marriage is and lump whatever arrangement into a legal framework, then lets not complain later.

Personally me and my family will be in an other land.

 

[wil]

If the state does not care what marriage is and lump whatever arrangement into a legal framework, then lets not complain later.

Personally me and my family will be in an other land.

Hopefully the state does care and will insure that all of our citizens have equal rights and benefits.

hmmm where are you going to move? I think you'll find you'll have to go to some quite controlled country like Saudi Arabia to find folks that you can see eye to eye on on limiting gay rights. We are behind the world by far in this regard.

I remember talking to Vietnam Vets who came back with pictures of SVA soldiers walking hand in hand downtown Saigon, each with automatic weapons in the other hand, nobody blinking an eye. (accept the amazed Americans)

 

[soleil10]

It is both your perception of the world and its issues and the world's perception of your thoughts on these issues.
Yes I believe it is a segment of honest G!d fearing Christians that see problems at every turn, that if they can't find a problem look under a rock for one or create something to complain about that cause the rest of society to look at them and say....why, why would I want to join a group like that...and this same group has driven folks away from their congregations looking for something else. (of course this is my perception, and something I have to work on. As I cannot see the benefit in this attitude, but my belief system says it is all good)

They say Mother Theresa didn't look at a starving or dying baby and see a starving or dying baby, she held in her hands a child of G!d, the image of G!d, the manifestation of G!d. She looked beyond the beauracracy of local and national gov'ts and the church and one on one honored and cared for the individual that was in front of her.

I think if we quit worrying about who married who, who's doing who, and learned to see G!d, see the Christ in everyone, if we put on the mind of Christ as called to do, we'd slow down on the judging, and whining, and work on our own growth....and the world would come to our door to support our endeavors.

Wil, overall I can agree with your reasoning. I myself try to balance between becoming a better person, building an healthy family and community and dealing with the larger picture because, I do not live in a vacuum.

There are good reasons to be frighten by many of the negative developments in this country, to become bitter or sarcastic or resentful. Still it is not bad to resist trends that will have very bad consequences on the society and future children.

Everything is a balancing act. For instance the same churches that are accused to be anti-gays are also caring for a great % of AIDs patients. It is too simple to label them as bigots and homophobe. That is not the whole picture. Of course there is always a small % of extremists that create unbalance and disruption.

 

[soleil10]

Hopefully the state does care and will insure that all of our citizens have equal rights and benefits.

This so called "equal rights and benefits" argument missed completely the point I was making on my post.

We saw what 50 years of the "Me" generation mentality did to this great nation.

What we sow, we harvest.

 

[wil]

For instance the same churches that are accused to be anti-gays are also caring for a great % of AIDs patients. It is too simple to label them as bigots and homophobe.

A great % of AIDs patients.

I'll call you on that. Please provide your statistics so we may determine what a 'great %' is.

 

[wil]

This so called "equal rights and benefits" argument missed completely the point I was making on my post.

We saw what 50 years of the "Me" generation mentality did to this great nation.

What we sow, we harvest.

Isn't the me generation a result of the pendelum swing from the 'do as I say not as I do' generation? Aren't they offspring of the 'greatest' generation? Who do you blame? The teachers or the students?

 

[soleil10]

A great % of AIDs patients.I'll call you on that. Please provide your statistics so we may determine what a 'great %' is.

As an example, I have heard from a catholic bishop giving a speech during the prop 8 protect marriage campaign that they (catholics) were taking care of close to 1/3 of Aids patients.

This is one denomination.

 

[soleil10]

Isn't the me generation a result of the pendelum swing from the 'do as I say not as I do' generation? Aren't they offspring of the 'greatest' generation? Who do you blame? The teachers or the students?

Here again, you avoid the point of my post. When every one feel they are a victim and then demand rights by trampling the right of others, it is totally immature.

Redefining marriage by force by disregarding what it means to others under the pretext of equality is wrong.

Violating the human rights of children through irresponsible divorce, irresponsible single parenting and ss marriage is a total violation of the equal rights of others.

When the gain/result/profit is smaller than the investment or the action, it is a loss for the greater good.

The idea that consensual adults can do whatever they want is a very bad idea and a wrong principle to live by.

If I pollute, it affect the whole earth, if I steal and cheat, it affect the whole society

If I mess up my family, it will cost to my community.

The accumulation of all our individual sins become a collective condition for larger consequences.

 

[Snoopy]

Any organisation (religious or otherwise) that discriminates against people on the grounds of (for instance) sexual preference or gender for no genuine reason is likely to “lose a cultural war” in a society where people are relatively free to think, speak and act as they wish (within the law). Quite simply, in the year 2009, more and more people refuse to be a part of such organisations and will, if prompted criticise them. People look at such organisations and dismiss them as anachronisms. No female clergy? No gay clergy? Outright opposition (or implied) to females and gays? I think about, ooh, fifty percent of the population are female. I wonder why they don’t think such blatant and indefensible discrimination is acceptable?

s.

 

[seattlegal]

and it still appears to me that your answer to the title of your thread could very well be in the mirror.

Are you saying that Christianity is loosing the cultural war because of me ?

James 1
19 My dearly loved brothers, understand this: everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger, (P) 20 for man's anger does not accomplish God's righteousness. 21 Therefore, ridding yourselves of all moral filth and evil excess, humbly receive the implanted word, which is able to save you. (Q) [e] 22 But (R) be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 Because if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his own face [f] in a mirror; 24 for he looks at himself, goes away, and right away forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer who acts—this person will be blessed in what he does. (S)
26 If anyone [g] thinks he is religious, without controlling his tongue (T) but deceiving his heart, his religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before our [h] God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows (U) in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world. (V)

​

Looking intently into the perfect law of freedom and persevering in will lead to being blessed in what you do? (Do you think losing this so called "culture war" fits that description?)

 

[soleil10]

Any organisation (religious or otherwise) that discriminates against people on the grounds of (for instance) sexual preference or gender for no genuine reason is likely to “lose a cultural war” in a society where people are relatively free to think, speak and act as they wish (within the law). Quite simply, in the year 2009, more and more people refuse to be a part of such organisations and will, if prompted criticise them. People look at such organisations and dismiss them as anachronisms. No female clergy? No gay clergy? Outright opposition (or implied) to females and gays? I think about, ooh, fifty percent of the population are female. I wonder why they don’t think such blatant and indefensible discrimination is acceptable?
s.

Snoopy, your are combining two completely different issues.
Men and women while different are complementary by God's design and equal in love.

Same sex Nuptial and marriage are not equal . In terms of world view and God's design for humanity they are opposite even if there is a huge propaganda campaign to brainwash us about it.

As I wrote before, Christianity does not have a family salvation plan and for this reason there is great confusion. The basic unit in heaven is the family, not the individual.
Christianity could not move to the family level because the first family fell and Jesus (second Adam) could not marry and bring God's lineage on earth.

God has only one lineage not 2. God is oneness not twoness.

In Christianity, especially Catholicism, it was recommended to be celibate because someone could reach a higher spiritual level as an individual than by having a family. Most of the saints are single people. Jesus himself died as single man, a bachelor on the cross.

I would not use the problem some Xstian denominations have with equal opportunity for women to justify homosexuality. The bible is overwhelmingly on the side of a man and woman becoming one even if there are many attempts to rewrite the overall plan of the bible to fit ssa.

 

[Snoopy]

Snoopy, your are combining two completely different issues.

Well, without repeating myself, I was only trying to suggest an answer to the question posed in your OP. I agree that the answer does indeed lie in the mirror.

Same sex Nuptial and marriage are not equal . In terms of world view and God's design for humanity they are opposite even if there is a huge propaganda campaign to brainwash us about it.

It is not propaganda, it is about simple, clear-sighted acceptance of reality. Some people are gay. End of. Whether any particular group / society / faith want to have an "issue" with that is another matter; but it is a good enough example of why this “cultural war” is being lost, IMO.


s.

 

[wil]

Jesus himself died as single man, a bachelor on the cross.

Any idea where that is written? Or are we following the assumptions of others?

 

[iBrian]

Ah, soleil, so you're also against what married couples do behind closed doors as well?

 

[soleil10]

Ah, soleil, so you're also against what married couples do behind closed doors as well?

I have no idea what you mean. Anything we do is transparent to God. It is recorded in our spirit too

 

[soleil10]

Any idea where that is written? Or are we following the assumptions of others?

Do you dispute that Jesus was a single man when he was crucified ?

Jesus has often been referred as the bridegroom.

John 3:28-29

28"You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, '(A)I am not the Christ,' but, 'I have been sent ahead of Him.'
29"He who has the bride is (B)the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice So this (C)joy of mine has been made full.