Why is Christianity loosing the cultural war ?

Gay marriage is actually social regression. Hopefully, one day you will understand it.

I don't think I could ever understand interfering with two consenting adult's choice to associate with one other or sharing the civil rights enjoyed by other consenting adults.

Frankly, that baffles me.

I hope I never understand the mindset needed to perpetuate that state of affairs.
 
Netti, your response is so shallow. That is typical. When faced with some serious information, you just brush it away.
Monthly variation is attitudes is hardly "serious information." The general trend over the past 5 years has been in a direction opposite of what you seem to want to believe. It has been in the direction of increased tolerance.

I realize that you could not care less about the natural right of children to a father and a mother.
My opinions have nothing to do with it. The issue is whether you can support your arguments. In light of Trayce Hansen's ideological polemics, you might be interested in actual research findings. Parents' sexual orientation is irrelevant to child development.
http://www.teach.virginia.edu/files..._children_of_lesbian_and_gay_parents_cdps.pdf

Also, I was unable to find a single scholarly reference to Trayce Hansen's "research" in Google Scholar.

Have a nice day.
 
Someone remarked that the reason the Commandments were given was to clarify that people would not be able to keep them.
I have heard people say that, however it may actually be a rumor. We have this quote from Paul: "...as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law blameless."(Philippians 3:6) Paul, a mere man, was able to keep the law.
 
You already have the right to marry.
No I do not. The right to marry consists of the right to marry the person I love, not who the state would choose for me instead: the Supreme Court was entirely explicit about what the "right to marry" consists of in Loving v. Virginia (rejecting the argument that black people already had the right to marry, as long as they only married other black people).
You do not have the right to redefine marriage for everybody else
I am not changing YOUR marriage in any way whatsoever: unless it is impossible for you to be happily married unless you know that you are inflicting deprivation on someone else, in which case that is too bad for you, because it is beyond your right.
You have no right to violate the human right of children to a father and a mother by inscribing it into the marriage law.
The alternative for those children would be NO parents at all.
 
No I do not. The right to marry consists of the right to marry the person I love, not who the state would choose for me instead: the Supreme Court was entirely explicit about what the "right to marry" consists of in Loving v. Virginia (rejecting the argument that black people already had the right to marry, as long as they only married other black people).
The rejection of interracial marriage promoted the division/separation and valuing one race over the other. It was totally wrong
With same sex "marriage it is the opposite. Marriage brings the 2 halves of humanity, the masculine and feminine gender of together for the sake of their children unless they are unfertile
You are comparing sex and color of skin. There are major differences between the sexes and the genders. You are equate the differences between a black man and a white man to the differences between a man and a woman.

I am not changing YOUR marriage in any way whatsoever: unless it is impossible for you to be happily married unless you know that you are inflicting deprivation on someone else, in which case that is too bad for you, because it is beyond your right.
Yes you are creating a counterfeit of what marriage is and has been. You do not want to hear it and keep repeating that it does not affect anyone else does not make it true

You are hijacking this institution and just do not have the confidence to create your own... and for good reasons

bob x;204198 The alternative for those children would be NO parents at all.[/QUOTE said:
Inseminating a lesbian with a for sale sperm of an unknown man is depriving that child of his history, his lineage. Having two women thinking that they can be a father is utterly nonsense.
 
Since civil marriage between same sex partners is a legal matter, it might be interesting to examine the issues from a legal perspective. Earlier this year the Iowa Supreme Court overturned the state's ban on same-sex marriage based on a Constitutional analysis that emphasized equal protection of the law.

It was helpful to me to review the court's response to claims to the effect that hetero couples provide the best upbringing for kids: "These opinions, while thoughtful and sincere, were largely unsupported by reliable scientific studies." This conclusion is is consistent with my own brief review of the research evidence, some of which actually shows that child upbringing provided by same-sex couples is less conflicted and more evenly distributed than hetero couples. In particular, lesbian couples' child rearing practices have been found to be superior to those of hetero couples. (See Parenting and child development in "nontraditional" families by Michael E. Lamb)

Further, the Iowa court notes that assumptions about the advantages of a hetero upbringing are flawed: "If the marriage statute was truly focused on optimal parenting, many classifications of people would be excluded, not merely gay and lesbian people." Consider the high rates of child abuse among hetero couples. It's ignored by RW activists against same sex-marriage. Generally speaking, I would add that there is so much wrong with traditional hetero marriage that it is borders on absurd for anyone to suggest that this is the standard same sex couples should be held to. For one thing, based on the high rates of divorce, we know that traditional marriages are unstable. While the notion of a traditional family has intuitive appeal, the fact is: it's not workable for many reasons that have nothing to do with a legal recognition of same sex marriage.

In the US, about one third of families with kids under 18 are single-parent families. There is simply no reason to believe that continuing to glorify heterosexual legal privileges in marriage and denying legal recognition for same-sex marriage would have any impact on this.

The court goes on to note that the child rearing argument is overstated and too broadly applied:
The ban on same-sex marriage is substantially over-inclusive because not all same-sex couples choose to raise children. Yet, the marriage statute denies civil marriage to all gay and lesbian people in order to discourage the limited number of same-sex couples who desire to raise children. In doing so, the legislature includes a consequential number of “individuals within the statute’s purview who are not afflicted with the evil the statute seeks to remedy.”
The court concluded that a ban on same sex marriages provides no obvious benefit for kids. It's not apparent "how the best interests of children of gay and lesbian parents, who are denied an environment supported by the benefits of marriage under the statute, are served by the ban." The court adds that denying legal recognition for same sex marriage "does not benefit the interests of those children of heterosexual parents, who are able to enjoy the environment supported by marriage with or without the inclusion of same-sex couples."

The court concluded that gays and lesbians be granted"full access to the institution of civil marriage." The court's reasoning seems fairly compelling to me and leaves little doubt that child rearing aspect of the argument against same sex marriage bespeaks a belief among some that constitutional principles matter little and should be put on the back burner. The court obviously disagrees:
...Civil marriage must be judged under our constitutional standards of equal protection and not under religious doctrine or the religious views of individuals.
It can be argued that gays should have the same rights as nongays on Constitutional grounds. No matter how elaborate, op-ed pieces and untested theories about the benefits of traditional marriages won't add much of anything to the disposition of what is ultimately a legal matter. Polemics will only give the impression of being irrelevant chatter serving to sidetrack the issues, which are legal in nature.

For your interest, here's the Iowa state Supreme Court opinion:
http://www.judicial.state.ia.us/Supreme_Court/Recent_Opinions/20090403/07-1499.pdf
 
Your topic can be answered on a couple of levels. What interests me first is the allusion you make to the encratism of the earliest church. There was indeed a strong theme of rejecting marriage and family life as a preferred state, for various reason. In fact, modern scholars have been finding more evidence of this tendency, shown by in early Christian monasticism and writings. There's also a pre-Christian Jewish encratic sect that probably influenced Christ.

Some tension between the two lifestyles must have continued, but the big shift towards family values (as we might say) perhaps occurred after the conversion of Constantine in the 300s. At that time, church governance was ceded over to Roman aristocrats increasingly, and people with titles, important family names, and big estates, were less supportive of giving pre-eminence to the earlier apostolic ideal of the unmarried disciple who could be wholly devoted to the Lord.

Ever since then, Church governance and teachings have often been closely linked to national, ethnic and imperial considerations. Wise kings support strong and stable families who produce good offspring to do the labor and fight the wars. State-sponsored churches preach strong morals.

For most of Christian history there has been a remarkably good balance between allowing a role for the 'encratic' unmarried priest (men who don't want women anyway could go and serve God), and the positive morals of marriage (in which divorce and remarriage were strongly discourage until only the last few generations). This balance ensured good family life.

Today we have an entirely new assault of forces. Liberalism, which first came along around the time of Napoleon, noew enables non-Christian and anti-christian values to innundate everyone with seductive depictions of immoral, amoral, licentious, lawless conduct. At the time of the 18th cent. American and French Revolutions, anti-clericalism and anti-christianity became fasionable. This has increase, more or less, ever since.

Today, Christian clergy and opinion leaders have also been somewhat seduced by morally relativized ideas, or they have felt they had no choice but to 'go with the flow.' Otherwise, they would lose their flocks to more libertine teachers.

This was all prophesied (in the Didache and elsewhere) and is happening as was foretold. The root cause, I believe, is a ruinously false, Protestant-era doctrine pitching lawlessness as the complement to 'sola fide.' Protestantized Americans, including catholics, have succumd to this false antonomianism. But in truth, Christ did not come to abolish the Law but to 'fulfill,' meaning to 'perfect' and to spiritualize to a higher degree. Unfortunately, this concept of His perfect Teaching was replace by the notion that Christ took the law and nailed it to the Cross.
 
But in truth, Christ did not come to abolish the Law but to 'fulfill,' meaning to 'perfect' and to spiritualize to a higher degree. Unfortunately, this concept of His perfect Teaching was replace by the notion that Christ took the law and nailed it to the Cross.
Namaste and welcome F2m!

I read thru the rest with interest, but the above lines I can resonate with...
 
In particular, lesbian couples' child rearing practices have been found to be superior to those of hetero couples.
Here we go. One of the tenant of Homofacism.

, the Iowa court notes that assumptions about the advantages of a hetero upbringing are flawed: "If the marriage statute was truly focused on optimal parenting, many classifications of people would be excluded, not merely gay and lesbian people."
Here we go. The follow up from Kinsey who mislead America in 1948 with his phony and despicable research published as "sexual behavior of the human male". He is the father of the so called sexual revolution who has brought so much destruction to the family. By the way he was a closeted homosexual who knew that it was necessary to damage traditional marriage before pushing an homosexual agenda.

the high rates of child abuse among hetero couples. It's ignored by RW activists against same sex-marriage. Generally speaking, I would add that there is so much wrong with traditional hetero marriage that it is borders on absurd for anyone to suggest that this is the standard same sex couples should be held to. For one thing, based on the high rates of divorce, we know that traditional marriages are unstable. While the notion of a traditional family has intuitive appeal, the fact is: it's not workable for many reasons that have nothing to do with a legal recognition of same sex marriage.
More tenants of Homofacism.

The people who have worked to destroy the American family with no fault divorces laws, the constant promotion of promiscuity, condoms based education and single parenting a la Michael Jackson are the same people who are promoting single sex nuptial. What a coincidence ?

They even blame the breakdown of the family on others !!!

They cant stand those who promote fidelity and sexual relation only within marriage.

Good luck Netti. You are a hard core gay activist pushing your stuff hiding behind some legal argument that equality of the individual means that single sex nuptial is equal to marriage.

Hoops, I forgot. You wrote that it was superior. Sorry
 
Namaste sunshine,You seem much more up on this than the rest of this.Since you are so versed, can you please illumine us with your list of tenants.
Wil, I do not have much interest in continuing this one sided conversation.

I just had to respond to what Netti posted. It was so ludicrous.
 
Namaste Soleil,

Which was ludricrous, Netti's post or your response?

And you define this discussion as 'one-sided'?

No wonder we have such issues, what dictionary are you using?
 
Namaste Soleil,Which was ludricrous, Netti's post or your response?And you define this discussion as 'one-sided'?
No wonder we have such issues, what dictionary are you using?

Wil You need to find someone else to argue with or to pick on.
I am done
 
Here we go. One of the tenant of Homofacism.
Feel free to sling the slogans. What I was referring to was actual research evidence. It may be flawed, but at least there are some facts to consider. If I may, I would like to remind you that you have offered no research evidence at all for your more outlandish claims about parenting and child development.

Here we go. The follow up from Kinsey who mislead America in 1948 with his phony and despicable research...
Do you think it's better to try to mislead people with no research at all, which is what you've been doing here?

Btw, you totally missed the point. The Iowa Supreme Court's position is that many conventional couples are not qualified parents simply by virtue of being male/female couples, which seems to be your only criteria for developmentally optimum parenting.

More tenants of Homofacism.
This might explain why you have no interest in research evidence: Slogans are enough for you.
What a coincidence ?
Any evidence of a causal relationship?

They even blame the breakdown of the family on others !!!

They cant stand those who promote fidelity and sexual relation only within marriage.
Who are "they"?

Hoops, I forgot. You wrote that it was superior. Sorry
Where was that?

Good luck Netti. You are a hard core gay activist
Actually my role here is been to introduce some common sense into the discussion. I see you're not taking to it too well. :D:D:D
 
Wil You need to find someone else to argue with or to pick on.
I am done
Perception is always an interesting thing...as of this time 354 posts...98 or 28% of the posts are yours... 29 or 9% of the posts are mine.

Sorry you felt picked on by me and but I'm not apologizing for the fact that I didn't let your statements of the tenants of homofascism and the end of civilisation as we know it go without comment.

G!d is good. G!d is everywhere. All is good.
 
Feel free to sling the slogans. What I was referring to was actual research evidence. It may be flawed, but at least there are some facts to consider. If I may, I would like to remind you that you have offered no research evidence at all for your more outlandish claims about parenting and child development.
Do you think it's better to try to mislead people with no research at all, which is what you've been doing here?
Btw, you totally missed the point. The Iowa Supreme Court's position is that many conventional couples are not qualified parents simply by virtue of being male/female couples, which seems to be your only criteria for developmentally optimum parenting.
This might explain why you have no interest in research evidence: Slogans are enough for you.Any evidence of a causal relationship? Who are "they"?
Where was that?Actually my role here is been to introduce some common sense into the discussion. I see you're not taking to it too well. :D:D:D
Whatever research I provided was discredited automaticaly by you.
You may want to read the research on "the future of the family in America" provided by Rutgers university.
It clearly explain what "secular individualism" is and the change in our culture.

Denying the family which is the Purpose of God's Creation is the same as Denying God. Since the image of God is a family, and God’s exact image is the sexual union of a man and a woman, ss nuptials is of the same seriousness as that of Communism denying God.
This also explains the vehement opposition of homosexual activists to bringing any religious discussion to bear on their actions, unless it is supportive of their viewpoint.

Those promoting same sex nuptials want to replace God’s ideal of the family with their own viewpoint. They are mutually exclusive, just like God-denying Communism cannot co-exist with God-affirming Democracy; the goal was to destroy the God affirming democracies through the dialectic principle of conflict and destruction. In the case of homosexual unions, the goal is to destroy God affirming marriage.

One of my friend had the experience with his nonprofit being kicked out of DC schools and also not supported by DC politicians. Instead of coexistence, which is what they want the sleeping masses to believe, they vehemently oppose anyone promoting traditional marriage, especially if they have a God-centered viewpoint. Since this viewpoint is a threat to their own viewpoint, it must be eliminated. Again, there is nothing “equal” about same sex union “equality”. People are equal but ss nuptial is obviously not equal to marriage.

People have to understand that it is a threat to the very foundation of society. Homosexual activist want to eliminate traditional marriage. We need to expose this truth.
 
The most vocal activist against same sex marriage have destroyed their traditional marriages with affairs. I am married and I am not threatened by homosexual activist. My children have never been threatened. I don't think people oppose people promoting traditional marriage because most people are involved in such a marriage. I think they oppose Hypocrites who profit from fear, hatred and separation. We are the United States.
 
The most vocal activist against same sex marriage have destroyed their traditional marriages with affairs. I am married and I am not threatened by homosexual activist. My children have never been threatened. I don't think people oppose people promoting traditional marriage because most people are involved in such a marriage. I think they oppose Hypocrites who profit from fear, hatred and separation. We are the United States.
What you said...

And this is not about Gays or Christianity. It's about people who put people on their shield, in order to force compliance to their way of thinking, and they dare to justify it by their faith, or their rights...
 
Today we have an entirely new assault of forces. Liberalism, which first came along around the time of Napoleon, noew enables non-Christian and anti-christian values to innundate everyone with seductive depictions of immoral, amoral, licentious, lawless conduct. At the time of the 18th cent. American and French Revolutions, anti-clericalism and anti-christianity became fasionable. This has increase, more or less, ever since.

Yes, liberals are to blame! We probably caused all these good conservative Christians to stray...
• Mark Sanford, South Carolina Governor
• John Ensign, Nevada Senator
• Larry Craig, Idaho Senator
• David Vitter, Louisiana Senator
• Mark Foley, Florida Representative
• Newt Gingrich, Georgia Representative
• Ted Haggard, New Life Church Pastor
• Rush Limbaugh, Radio Personality
• Jim Bakker, Televangelist
• Neil Bush, Brother of G. W. Bush
• Jimmy Swaggart, Televangelist
• Bill O'Reilly, TV Personality
• Strom Thurmond, South Carolina Senator
• Bob Packwood, Oregon Senator
• Donald Lukens, Ohio Representative
• Robert Allen, Florida Representative
• Jim Gibbons, Nevada Governor
• Don Sherwood, Pennsylvania Representative
• Ed Schrock, Virginia Representative
• Dan Burton, Indiana Representative
• Dan Crane, Illinois Representative
• Ken Calvert, California Representative

The more complete list of American republican sex scandals.
 
Yes, liberals are to blame! We probably caused all these good conservative Christians to stray...
The list on both sides is quite even.
The decline in the culture affects all. You did not get the points made in my post.
 
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