Why is Christianity loosing the cultural war ?

By legalizing same sex marriage, we are rendering our most sacred institution, marriage, meaningless in the official eyes of the government .
I fail to see how expanding the definition of marriage to include SS couples would make marriage meaningless. Likewise, legal recognition has an effect as far as effectuating legal rights, but I fail to see how this would "ultimately destroy marriage as an institution" (your terms).

The amendment of a legal definition of marriage has no relevance to the viability of a marriage, which involves and depends on the partners involved to make it work.
 
im sorry Soleil. but someone has to say it.

Why dont you concentrate on your own marriage before you rubbish someone elses. Whether they be same sex, or otherewise. Also, having children out of wedlock happens, whether you agree with it or not!!! I doesnt mean that the children concerned grow up less educated, loving or "in gods image". What would you prefer......Only legally, christian couples (married) are allowed to procreate and reproduce? Would that be better for you ? ......



Doesn't Scandanavia have one of the lowest crime rates as well?
 
By legalizing same sex marriage, we are rendering our most sacred institution, marriage, meaningless in the official eyes of the government
<...>
Out of wedlock birth were 5% 50 years ago. They are now 40%.
Let's see, just what does same sex marriage have to do with the out of wedlock birth rate? The fact that out of wedlock births have risen without there being same sex marriage cancels your argument that same sex marriage will make marriage meaningless. You will have to do better than that.
 
Out of wedlock birth were 5% 50 years ago. They are now 40%. We are following the Scandinavia model which is now 80% out of wedlock. They have ss nuptials for almost a decade.

Marriage is practically dead there.

And yet Scandinavian countries are famous for their stable society, low crime rate, strong healthcare, and a whole slew of other positive social indicators.

Here's a question for you, Soleil - how would you rank the following in order of importance as issues that need tackling, with the most urgent first?

- world peace
- tackling poverty
- addressing famine
- mortality rates among Third World children
- homosexuality
- marriage
 
The point I am making in my post is that Christianity does not seem to have a family salvation theology. I did cover some of the facts earlier..
Without such a theology, a vision that include the growth of the individual, the formation of his/her family and how it is crucial as a preparation for their next life as a whole is missing.
Without it all everything has temporary value, is individual and does not include the eternal.

That is where I would start.
Matthew 12
46 He (AV) was still speaking to the crowds when suddenly His mother and brothers were standing outside wanting to speak to Him. (AW) 47 Someone told Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to You." [m]
48 But He replied to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, (AX) He said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven, that person is My brother and sister and mother." (AY)
 
The red states or states that vote Republican have the highest divorce rate, teen pregnancy or pregnancies out of wed lock. I feel Republicans are more of a threat to my marriage than gays. Should they be banned from Church?
 
The red states or states that vote Republican have the highest divorce rate, teen pregnancy or pregnancies out of wed lock. I feel Republicans are more of a threat to my marriage than gays. Should they be banned from Church?
Namaste Soma,

Is that true? I'd love to see those stats...

Of course red states is a misnomer...in general it the 'country' is red and the cities are blue when you look at the county by county map (large counties that go blue are mostly reservation land)
2008_Election_Map_small.jpg
 
Last edited:
Doesn't look like that chart wouldn't hold much scrutiny. I'm afraid the county by county would completely reverse the trend....look at Nevada for example, top of the divorce heap...and if one were to research that would be in both of the blue counties and all the red ones would be lower down...

Tis what I dislike about bias, finding just the right info to supposedly prove your point...no one is ever interested in facts...just proving their side right.
 
We are following the Scandinavia model which is now 80% out of wedlock. They have ss nuptials for almost a decade.

Marriage is practically dead there.

Sorry to inform you that according to the most recent studies the numbers show that heterosexual marriage looks pretty healthy in Scandinavia, where same-sex couples have had rights the longest. In Denmark, for example, the marriage rate had been declining for a half-century but turned around in the early 1980s. After the 1989 passage of the registered-partner law, the marriage rate continued to climb; Danish heterosexual marriage rates are now the highest they've been since the early 1970's. And the most recent marriage rates in Sweden, Norway, and Iceland are all higher than the rates for the years before the partner laws were passed. Furthermore, in the 1990s, divorce rates in Scandinavia remained basically unchanged.

Parenthood within marriage is still the norm—most cohabitating couples marry after they start having children. In Sweden, for instance, 70 percent of cohabiters wed after their first child is born. Indeed, in Scandinavia the majority of families with children are headed by married parents. In Denmark and Norway, roughly four out of five couples with children were married in 2003. In the Netherlands, a bit south of Scandinavia, 90 percent of heterosexual couples with kids are married.

In Denmark, from 1980 to 1989, the number of unmarried, cohabiting couples with children rose by 70 percent, but the same figure rose by only 28 percent from 1989 to 2000—the decade after Denmark introduced its partner-registration laws—and then stopped rising. From 2000 to 2004, the number has increased by a barely perceptible 0.3 percent. The fact that rates of cohabitation and nonmarital births either slowed down or completely stopped rising after the passage of partnership laws shows that the laws had no effect on heterosexual behavior. Furthermore, the change in nonmarital births was exactly the same in countries with partnership laws as it was in countries without. The eight countries that recognized registered partners at some point in the decade from 1989 to 2000 saw an increase in the average nonmarital birth rate from 36 percent in 1991 to 44 percent in 2000, an eight percentage point increase. Among the EU countries that didn't recognize partners (plus Switzerland), the average rate of nonmarital births rose from 15 percent to 23 percent—also an eight-point increase.

No matter how you slice the demographic data, rates of nonmarital births and cohabitation do not increase as a result of the passage of laws that give same-sex partners the right to registered partnership. To put it simply: Giving gay couples rights does not inexplicably cause heterosexuals to flee marriage.

For more see: Gay marriage: for better or for ... - Google Books

Plus see this article
Maryland Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Gay Marriage - washingtonpost.com

Question: Prof. Eskridge, I have not read your book on the purported effects of same-sex marriage in Scandinavia, but just this morning Washington Post's own "truth squad" debunked Sen. Sam Brownback's claims that gay marriage is the cause of 80 percent of the first-born children in northern Europe being born out of wedlock. Care to comment?
William Eskridge Jr.: Yes, Senator Brownback's claim is not based on solid empirical evidence.

Prof. William N. Eskridge of Yale Law School has written extensively about the legal and political basis for how states treat sexual and gender minorities. His most recent book, written with Darren Spedale, is "Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse?," an examination of the long-term results of legal same-sex partnerships in Scandinavia.
 
Matthew 1246 He (AV) was still speaking to the crowds when suddenly His mother and brothers were standing outside wanting to speak to Him. (AW) 47 Someone told Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to You." [m] 48 But He replied to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, (AX) He said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven, that person is My brother and sister and mother." (AY)
These scriptures show that Jesus was misunderstood and rejected even by his own physical family. Jesus' family did not understand his mission despite all the signs and visions they received. Jesus was still known as the *******'s son of a carpenter. Even John the Baptist was asking form jail if Jesus was the one to come.
Jesus is making a point that people who are one in heart with him are closer to him that his own physical family members.
God wanted to establish His lineage on earth through Jesus who was sinless and had the Godly seed.
From Genesis through revelation, God hope is to establish a sinless family where He can dwell
 
The point I am making in my post is that Christianity does not seem to have a family salvation theology. I did cover some of the facts earlier..
Without such a theology, a vision that include the growth of the individual, the formation of his/her family and how it is crucial as a preparation for their next life as a whole is missing.
Without it all everything has temporary value, is individual and does not include the eternal.

That is where I would start.
Salvation is on an individual basis. (John 5:16-30, esp. verses 21, 28-29)
The temporal family is temporary. (Where do you think the word temporary came from?
from etymonline.com
temporal http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=temporalc.1340, "worldly, secular," later "of time, terrestrial, earthly" (c.1375), "temporary, lasting only for a time" (1382), from O.Fr. temporal, from L. temporalis "of time, temporary," from tempus (gen. temporis) "time, season, proper time or season."

temporary (adj.) http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=temporary1547, from L. temporarius "of seasonal character, lasting a short time," from tempus (gen. temporis) "time, season." The noun meaning "person employed only for a time" is recorded from 1848.
Jesus reflects and relates this in the following scripture.
Matthew 12
46 He (AV) was still speaking to the crowds when suddenly His mother and brothers were standing outside wanting to speak to Him. (AW) 47 Someone told Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to You." [m]
48 But He replied to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, (AX) He said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven, that person is My brother and sister and mother." (AY)
The temporal family is temporary, and salvation is on an individual basis. That is how it is. Get over it.

These scriptures show that Jesus was misunderstood and rejected even by his own physical family. Jesus' family did not understand his mission despite all the signs and visions they received. Jesus was still known as the *******'s son of a carpenter. Even John the Baptist was asking form jail if Jesus was the one to come.
Jesus is making a point that people who are one in heart with him are closer to him that his own physical family members.
Indeed.
God wanted to establish His lineage on earth through Jesus who was sinless and had the Godly seed.
In the mundane, fleshly way? Says who? Says you?
From Genesis through revelation, God hope is to establish a sinless family where He can dwell
Again, in the mundane, fleshly way? I don't agree. It's speculation at best, and contrary to the above scripture from Matthew 12. It clings to the flesh, rather than embracing the Spirit.
 
Sorry to inform you that according to the most recent studies the numbers show that heterosexual marriage looks pretty healthy in Scandinavia,
Janz, I think you should always compare the findings of a gay author who has a self interest with others. There is so much propaganda hidden behind titles, institutions etc.

Here is an excerpt about Sweden from "the future of marriage in America (Rutgers university). The study is updated every year. In any case. the issue is the spread of the free sex culture which include homosexuality, divorces, a decline in religiosity etc...

Sweden has one of the lowest marriage rates in the world. If current trends hold, only about 60 per cent of Swedish women will ever marry, compared with over 85 per cent of their US counterparts. Fifty years ago the figure was 91 per cent for Sweden and 95 per cent for the United States.
Cohabitation

Instead of marriage, cohabitation is increasingly popular in Sweden. By contrast, the United States has a lower rate of cohabitation than all but the predominantly Catholic nations of southern Europe. About 28 per cent of all couples in Sweden are cohabiting, versus eight per cent of American couples.
A number of factors contribute to the high rate of cohabitation in Sweden. Religion is weak, and the moral and cultural taboos against partners living together have disappeared. In addition, government benefits are given to individuals regardless of their relationships or family arrangements. Spousal benefits in such matters as health care simply do not exist. And all income tax is individual.
For its part the United States stands out for having the world's highest divorce rate. The risk of a marriage ending in divorce in the United States is close to 50 per cent, compared with about 40 per cent in Sweden. This difference can be explained in part by the high levels of ethnic, racial and religious diversity in the United States, all of which are associated with divorce. By contrast Sweden has a highly homogeneous society. And, of course, people who cohabit but don't marry won't have to divorce.

Swedish cohabiting couples do, however, break up in large numbers. It is estimated that the risk of breakup for cohabiting couples in Sweden, even those with children, is several times higher than for married couples.
Moreover, the Swedish divorce rate has been growing in recent years, while the US rate has been declining. So, overall, given the increasing convergence of divorce rates, and the instability of cohabiting couples, the family breakup rate in the two nations is actually quite similar, Popenoe concludes.
One significant difference between the two countries regards the percentage of children living with their biological parents. The number of births outside marriage is higher in Sweden, 56 per cent, than in the United States, 35 per cent. Even so, more children in Sweden live with their parents.



This happens because the extramarital births in Sweden are mostly to cohabitating couples, while in the United States they are to young, non-cohabitating mothers.


The high breakup level of relationships in Sweden, the report comments, "is testimony to the fragility of modern marriage in which most of the institutional bonds have been stripped away - economic dependence, legal definitions, religious sentiments, and family pressures - leaving marriage and other pair- bonds held together solely by the thin and unstable reed of affection."
The big losers in this trend, the report continues, are the children. In both Sweden and the United States studies show that children from broken families have two to three times the number of serious problems in life.
 
heehee, I know you don't like me to point out the obvious but it appears you don't know what color the kettle is.
It is good to rely on good research


Stanley Kurtz (National review) partial article

February 28, 2006, 8:10 a.m.
No Nordic Bliss
There’s no refuting the claim that same-sex partnerships harm marriage.


Now that we've learned about the Swedish drive to abolish marriage and recognize polyamory (see "Fanatical Swedish Feminists"), and about the demise of marriage in the Netherlands (see "Standing Out"), let's take a look at an important attempt to refute my arguments on Scandinavian marriage. In 2004, Yale Law Professor William Eskridge, Attorney Darren Spedale, and Sweden's Ombudsman for Sexual Orientation Discrimination, Hans Ytterberg, published "Nordic Bliss? Scandinavian Registered Partnerships and the Same-Sex Marriage Debate." (For brevity, I'll refer only to first-author Eskridge.) Understanding Eskridge's criticisms will tell us much about the meaning of same-sex marriage.


Against Marriage

The most revealing thing about Eskridge's paper is that it goes beyond a mere defense of registered partnerships to offer a full-throated endorsement of Swedish parental cohabitation. Having a Swedish government official as a coauthor emphasizes the point.

But Eskridge goes further and criticizes me for treating Sweden's 56-percent out-of-wedlock birthrate as a problem. "[Kurtz] uses the term 'out-of-wedlock births' in a consistently disparaging manner," complains Eskridge. This, says Eskridge, means "fetishizing one institution" (i.e. marriage), at the expense of the perfectly legitimate Swedish practice of parental cohabitation. Is there anything wrong with the fact that so many Swedish children are raised by unmarried couples? "Of course not," says Eskridge. Eskridge defends Swedish parental cohabitation by pointing to a study that found Swedish children suffering when raised by a lone parent, but doing better when raised by either married or cohabiting parents.

Eskridge neglects to mention that this equivalence between married and cohabiting parents applies only as long as the couples stay together. But cohabiting parents break up at two to three times the rate of married parents, which in the long run means more kids raised by lone parents. This problem of family instability is my main complaint about parental cohabitation. Yet Eskridge doesn't refute the point; he ignores it.
So while Eskridge offers a passing good word for marriage, he is actually deeply hostile to the idea of marriage as the preferred setting for parenthood. Eskridge endorses a Swedish system that has effaced virtually every legal distinction between marriage and cohabitation. Sweden is actually the model for America's most radical anti-marriage activists. So the "conservative case" for gay marriage is looking awfully dead right now.
Misrepresentations

Having ignored my critique of parental cohabitation, Eskridge goes on to egregiously misrepresent my causal framework. Eskridge claims that I consider Sweden the best and clearest example of the negative effect of same-sex marriage. False. Norway is the clearest Scandinavian example of the negative effects of same-sex partnerships (as I've repeatedly noted), and the Netherlands is the most important European example. Eskridge goes into high dudgeon over my supposed inability to acknowledge that many factors contributed to martial decline in Sweden, well before registered partnerships were introduced in 1994.

Yet I've repeatedly noted the importance of multiple causal factors and pre-existing marital decline. That's exactly why I concentrate on Norway and the Netherlands rather than Sweden and Denmark. Gay marriage had more effect on Norway and the Netherlands because there was "more marriage" left to undermine when gay marriage came around than in either Sweden or Denmark. There's no way Eskridge can even claim to refute me without looking at Norway and the Netherlands. Yet he spends all his time on the two countries where marriage had declined the furthest even before gay marriage was introduced (while pretending I don't understand that point).

Does this mean same-sex partnerships did nothing to contribute to Swedish marital decline? Not on your life. In "The Marriage Mentality" I showed how same-sex partnerships are pushing Sweden toward recognition of triple and quadruple parenting. And in "Fanatical Swedish Feminists," I showed how Sweden's same-sex partnerships have opened the way for a drive to abolish marriage and recognize polyamory. Eskridge talks about "nordic bliss." Read "Fanatical Swedish Feminists" and you'll see a nordic nightmare. When it comes to "slippery slope" issues, the impact of same-sex partnerships on Sweden is quite strong.

But that's not all. The Swedish out-of-wedlock birthrate continued to rise after passage of registered partnerships in 1994, and there's good reason to view registered partnerships as a contributing factor in that rise. As we saw in "Fanatical Swedish Feminists," Swedish legislation removing the final remaining differences between registered partnerships and marriage (e.g., the right to state-funded artificial insemination), made a point of treating marriage, registered partnerships, and mere cohabitation alike. So instead of highlighting marriage's privileged status as a site for parenthood, partnership legislation is communicating the message that marriage is no different from cohabitation.
 
University of Leicester Produces the first ever World Map of Happiness
The 20 happiest nations in the World are:
1 - Denmark
2 - Switzerland
3 - Austria
4 - Iceland
5 - The Bahamas
6 - Finland
7 - Sweden :)
8 - Bhutan
9 - Brunei
10 - Canada
11 - Ireland
12 - Luxembourg
13 - Costa Rica
14 - Malta
15 - The Netherlands
16 - Antigua and Barbuda
17 - Malaysia
18 - New Zealand
19 - Norway
20 - The Seychelles

Other notable results include:
23 - USA :(

Looks like the Scandinavian countries have got it goin' on!
 
It is good to rely on good research

So why have you extensively quoted an opinion piece, rather any studies to back up your claims - to which you were called out for a long time ago on this thread?
 
University of Leicester Produces the first ever World Map of Happiness
The 20 happiest nations in the World are:
1 - Denmark
2 - Switzerland
3 - Austria
4 - Iceland
5 - The Bahamas
6 - Finland
7 - Sweden :)
8 - Bhutan
9 - Brunei
10 - Canada
11 - Ireland
12 - Luxembourg
13 - Costa Rica
14 - Malta
15 - The Netherlands
16 - Antigua and Barbuda
17 - Malaysia
18 - New Zealand
19 - Norway
20 - The Seychelles

Other notable results include:
23 - USA :(
Looks like the Scandinavian countries have got it goin' on!

Surely it must be the Seychelles as no.1 [maybe the top 5 are good liars;)!]
 
So why have you extensively quoted an opinion piece, rather any studies to back up your claims - to which you were called out for a long time ago on this thread?

^ I agree..Stanley Kurtz is not exactly an objective commentator. Plus Soleil 10, the Unification Church and the teachings of Sun Myung Moon are extremely biased. I respect your beliefs and I support your right to follow your religion (no matter how wrong I think those teachings are). However, what I don't support is your right to force the rest of the country to follow the teachings of Moon. If you are going to attack Spedale and Eskridge "as gay authors who has a self interest." Well then, Moon is someone who believes he is the Messiah of the Second Coming and that his family is the first true family in all history. Talk about self interest. Moon also supports what I call true religiofascism where his religion is married to the state and he is King.

For more see:
The Real Sun Myung Moon
Hail to the Moon king - Salon.com

I don't know how you know that Spedale and Eskridge are gay or not, but their research and book Gay Marriage: for Better or for Worse?: What We've Learned from the Evidence show that (1) there is no "slippery slope" - 17 years of de facto gay marriage in Scandinavia has NOT led to any calls for polygamy, group marriage or the like and (2) allowing same-sex couples to marry does NOT harm the institution of marriage - in fact, more heterosexual couples are getting married now, and less are getting divorced, than before there was gay marriage.

"Eskridge and Spedale illuminate with remarkable even-handedness a debate that tends to generate more heat than light. They provide a cogent analysis of conservative arguments that same-sex matrimony threatens conventional marriage, and argue persuasively that enabling same-sex partners to marry may actually strengthen that beleaguered institution."--John Podesta, former White House Chief of Staff, currently President and CEO, Center for American Progress.

The sooner we get religion out of the public sphere and into the private sphere the better our nation will be. I, for one, find that America is moving toward enlightenment. To me, marriage is a private contract between 2 consenting adults and the government needs to get it's nose out controlling who can marry. I don't need a stinkin' marriage license issued by the state to be legally married. In fact in the USA, we have common law marriages that can bypass the state.
 
Back
Top