Why is Christianity loosing the cultural war ?

[Thomas]

Thomas, before I comment, I need to ask you what you define by "nuptial mystery"

The Mystery of the Bridegroom and the Bride, which runs throughout Scripture.

Matthew 9:15, Matthew 25, which treats of the wise and unwise virgins, the coming of the Groom, and the Last Judgement, (see also Mark 2 and Luke 5), John 2 and Apocalypse 18.

One of the most telling verses is as follows, and this is John the Baptist talking:
"He that hath the bride (Church), is the bridegroom (Christ): but the friend of the bridegroom, who standeth and heareth him (John the Baptist), rejoiceth with joy because of the bridegroom's voice. This my joy therefore is fulfilled."
John 3:29.

St Paul in Ephesians 5 gives a precise teaching on the Bride-Groom / Church-Christ analogy.

+++

I am not trying to be disrespectful but honestly based on what you are saying. Jesus' mother would be his wife. The church also is the wife of Jesus who is the bridegroom.

Yes ... that is what Scripture says. The problem is, Scripture speaks in analogy, and there is a tendency to treat analogies as facts. One has to discern the spirit that illuminates the letter. The Fathers go to great lengths to 'explain' this, understanding that a Mystery, as such, can never be fully explained.

This is exactly my original point, without a clear theology of the family (salvation)...

No, that's a complete and utter error — salvation is not through the family, salvation is through Christ alone.

There is so much confusion about this within Christianity itself.

The Greek term for 'heresy' is from the verb 'to choose' — and what you're doing is classic heresy: You've chosen one aspect, and emphasised it to the exclusion of all else, so much so that message has become completely distorted. The family has nothing to do with salvation — Christ's self-sacrifice on the Cross is the Redemption of a fallen humanity, everything else is subsidiary to that.

There is so much confusion about this within Christianity itself.

No, the Christian community is generally quite clear on the fact that 'Jesus saves' — I do believe you've got the wrong end of the stick in this case.

Thomas

 

[bob x]

The emphasis on family loyalties above all else is very strong in East Asian cultures; not that it isn't found elsewhere, but what Sun Myung Moon is teaching is really Confucianism, grafted on top of Christianity, to the considerable injury of the Christian message.

 

[soleil10]

The Mystery of the Bridegroom and the Bride, which runs throughout Scripture.

Ok, now I know what you mean. I am familiar with the concept of the church being presented as the bride. I had never seen it describe with the words "the nuptial mystery"
Thanks for the list of verses. I do not have such list summary list on the subject.

No, that's a complete and utter error — salvation is not through the family, salvation is through Christ alone.

I have not said that salvation is not coming through the Messiah. You do not understand the point that I am trying to make

The Greek term for 'heresy' is from the verb 'to choose' — and what you're doing is classic heresy: You've chosen one aspect, and emphasised it to the exclusion of all else, so much so that message has become completely distorted.

I wish that after 2000 of Christian history you would not use the H word to qualify someone else position. Jesus himself was called an heretic in his own time.

The family has nothing to do with salvation — Christ's self-sacrifice on the Cross is the Redemption of a fallen humanity, everything else is subsidiary to that.

Here again, you do not understand the point I was trying to make. The state of the Christian family is in serious moral decline. Look at all the statistics. I am suggesting that the existing Christian message has something to do with it. Some serious introspection needs to be done

 

[seattlegal]

The emphasis on family loyalties above all else is very strong in East Asian cultures; not that it isn't found elsewhere, but what Sun Myung Moon is teaching is really Confucianism, grafted on top of Christianity, to the considerable injury of the Christian message.

Whoa! That makes things really clear!

{I really don't know a whole lot about Sun Myung Moon's church, but from what Soliel's posts have said, I would say that it is more like Confucianism trying to disguise itself as Christianity. Dismayed that Christianity doesn't have the "family theology" to stretch and cover the Confucian hierarchical model of Ren, he strives to make one up in order to make a "full mask," rather than a partial mask.}

I would think that the Christian ideal of there being "no slave or master" would really be incompatible with Confucianism. You leave your "hierarchical status" at the door in Christianity, which runs counter to the most basic tenets of Confucianism, imo.

 

[soleil10]

The married man is divided, between the world and the Lord, according to Paul:1 Corinthians 732 I want you to be without concerns. An unmarried man is concerned about the things of the Lord—how he may please (V) the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the things of the world—how he may please his wife— 34 and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is concerned about the things of the Lord, (W) so that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the things of the world—how she may please her husband. 35 Now I am saying this for your own benefit, not to put a restraint on you, but because of what is proper, and so that you may be devoted to the Lord without distraction.

Are you saying that it is better not to marry ?
Is it still the message Christianity want to promote today ?
Is family building, secondary to singleness ?

The scripture says self-control is a fruit of the Spirit. You haven't said anything about the Spirit here. (Are you more concerned about the flesh?)

The spirit shoud be subject over the body. That is what I am saying

I would say subdue or replenish the earth, rather than dominate. Dominion was in regard to the animals. (flesh) (Genesis 1:28)

I have no problem with that

Genesis 4
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you furious? (D) And why are you downcast? [c] 7 If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it." (E)The individual, and that individual's behavior, is paramount here. The individual doing right would lead to acceptance. It was the individual's "fallen countenence" that lead to dysfunction in the family. (Not to mention the call for revenge--more dysfunction.)

Yes, startng from Eve, the Adam, then Cain, then....then.....etc
​

 

[soleil10]

The emphasis on family loyalties above all else is very strong in East Asian cultures; not that it isn't found elsewhere, but what Sun Myung Moon is teaching is really Confucianism, grafted on top of Christianity, to the considerable injury of the Christian message.

I really have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[bob x]

I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Fish can't figure out what the word "water" means.

 

[Thomas]

Thanks for the list of verses. I do not have such list summary list on the subject.

No problem.

I have not said that salvation is not coming through the Messiah. You do not understand the point that I am trying to make

It seemed to link salvation with the family — that is not the case. Salvation comes through the Messiah to the community — Christianity is realised vertically, and horizontally: through love of God and neighbour. The family is an aspect of this, but it is not 'it'.

I wish that after 2000 of Christian history you would not use the H word to qualify someone else position. Jesus himself was called an heretic in his own time.

Well, more accurately a blasphemer, not a heretic. In fact He accused others of heresy, check out his disputes with the Pharisees.

The state of the Christian family is in serious moral decline.

I would say the state of the family is in serious moral decline, and some Christian families get drawn into that decline. The decline is outside Christianity, not a product of it. The idea of a 'personal religion' as being something which each individual determines for himself is such a case.

Look at all the statistics. I am suggesting that the existing Christian message has something to do with it.

Well you need to identify where Christian doctrine attacks the idea of the family.

Some serious introspection needs to be done

Well I cannot speak generally, but in Catholicism Pope John Paul II 'pioneered' the resurgence in family values, his 'Theology of the Body' is the landmark of his theological position, and it's all about the family, which we see attacked on all fronts. I think 'traditional family values' are being corroded on all fronts, and catholicism is fighting a stand against it. The media only ever reports it bias on that issue.

Pope Benedict XVI hits at society as such, and his letters on social justice are excoriating critiques of the modern anti-family and essentially anti-human values.

I think, in that regard, Christianity is losing the war because secularism panders to the more salacious appetites of the culture and ridicules its traditional values.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

It seemed to link salvation with the family — that is not the case. Salvation comes through the Messiah to the community

The smallest units of the community is the individual and the family. You cannot reach the community without passing through the family level

— Christianity is realised vertically, and horizontally: through love of God and neighbour. The family is an aspect of this, but it is not 'it'.

Everybody has a father, a mother, brothers, sisters, grand parents and in-laws. That is the central unit of society. Neigborhoods and nations are made of families. Family is the basic school of love. Family is not just an aspect of it. It is the central aspect.

Well, more accurately a blasphemer, not a heretic. In fact He accused others of heresy, check out his disputes with the Pharisees.

Ok so lets say that religious history is full of bloodshed based on the misuses of the H word.

I would say the state of the family is in serious moral decline, and some Christian families get drawn into that decline. The decline is outside Christianity, not a product of it. The idea of a 'personal religion' as being something which each individual determines for himself is such a case.

Statistics show that when comparing family breakdowns, like divorce, pornography, abortions Christians are no doing better than others. Those are known facts. The state of the Christian family is in serious decline too.

Well you need to identify where Christian doctrine attacks the idea of the family.

I will respond to this in a separate post

Well I cannot speak generally, but in Catholicism Pope John Paul II 'pioneered' the resurgence in family values, his 'Theology of the Body' is the landmark of his theological position, and it's all about the family, which we see attacked on all fronts. I think 'traditional family values' are being corroded on all fronts, and catholicism is fighting a stand against it. The media only ever reports it bias on that issue.
Pope Benedict XVI hits at society as such, and his letters on social justice are excoriating critiques of the modern anti-family and essentially anti-human values.

Thomas, I am looking for names of Canonized Catholic saints during the last 200 years that are married and parents. Can you let me know some names ?

I think, in that regard, Christianity is losing the war because secularism panders to the more salacious appetites of the culture and ridicules its traditional values.

Yes, secular individualisn is a major problem

 

[Thomas]

The smallest units of the community is the individual and the family. You cannot reach the community without passing through the family level.

You don't have to be a member of a family to be a Christian, the community is the family — otherwise those without families would be ruled out.

Also God takes priority over the family —
Matthew 10:37
"He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me."

Matthew 12:46-49
"As he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him. And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee. But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren."

Remember that Christ is talking about adoption into the 'Divine Family' one might say ... everything on earth — the human family — is, or rather should be, ordered according to heaven ... your argument puts family before God.

Family is the basic school of love. Family is not just an aspect of it. It is the central aspect.

There, you see, you put the family over God. God is the source of love, and thus takes priority. Where does love come from? Not the family, because there is love apart from family, and there are families without love — most marriages in history were towards material benefit, love was something you worked at ... Love is divine gift.

Yes, secular individualism is a major problem

It is the major problem.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

You don't have to be a member of a family to be a Christian, the community is the family — otherwise those without families would be ruled out.

Once again, the community is made of families. Community is the exended family. Everyone is born from parents. God said, it is not good for man to be alone
Religion came about because of the human fall. It is the hospital for sinners to be redeemed. It is not the original Kingdom of God.

Also God takes priority over the family —Matthew 10:37
"He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me."

There is no question that becoming one with God as an individual in order to create God's centered family is the first step in growing to maturity and being able to bear fruit (Gen 1:28)

Matthew 12:46-49"As he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him. And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee. But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren."

Jesus was rejected and misunderstood by his own family. They even thought he was crasy. Jesus had a very miserable childhood even after his parents and relative received personal vision of who he was. Even John the Baptist send his own disciples, while in jail, asking Jesus if he was the one to come. He had also lost the vision he had received earlier. People who believed in him became his spirituals children and family. Jesus came to graft us a the wild olive branch to the tre of life

Remember that Christ is talking about adoption into the 'Divine Family' one might say ... everything on earth — the human family — is, or rather should be, ordered according to heaven ... your argument puts family before God.

Genesis 2:24, Mark 10:7, Matt 19:5 Ephesians 5:31 clearly indicate that man should become one flesh with his wife. This is the next step after becoming one with God as an individulal. We find God in our spouse and are not created to be single.
A&E fell in this regard and their marriage as our first ancestors was not blessed by God. Jesus himself could not marry. His own parents did not understand their responsibility in finding him a bride. The marriage of the lamb did not happened and was postponed until his return.
This is why celibacy often became promoted in Christianity until now. Christianity, Catholicism especially put priesthood above married life but it is not the original request of God in the bible. Ultimately everyone needs to become one flesh. The couple is the image of God, not singleness.

There, you see, you put the family over God. God is the source of love, and thus takes priority.

I am not putting the family before God. It is the opposite. God wants us to experience parental love. Since God is a Parent Himself, it is part of our growth to become closer to Him. The best way to experience God's love is through a God centered family.
Without the human fall, the love between Adam and Eve and their family should have become the model for their descendants. Their children would have experienced God's love through their parents.
Since God is invisible, Adam and Eve were the physical body of God on earth. They unfortunately became our fallen parents.

Where does love come from? Not the family, because there is love apart from family, and there are families without love — most marriages in history were towards material benefit, love was something you worked at ... Love is divine gift.

Jesus came as the second Adam to restore and recreate the original heavenly family where God can dwell. Since Adam and Eve, we are carrying the original sin and as Jesus said, we do the will of our father, Satan. Humanity is working back toward God from the servant of servants, then adoptive children. The ultimate destiny is to be God's own children.

We should not confuse the original plan of God in genesis with the restorative path back to him shown in the bible. What you are describing is part of that path and not the original plan.

You are talking of a spiritual community on the path to the Kingdom, not the Kingdom. The kingdom of heaven on earth was supposed to be the extension of Adam ideal family. It is not a community of individuals friends. St Paul described marriage as a distraction from God because fallen men are not spiritually matured for God centered marriage.

Through a God centered family, we learn to love mankind. I can see a senior citizen as my own grandfather, or a mother as my own mother. The Kingdom of God is the extension of the family. Is not it the responsibility of Christianity to teach God's ideal ?

The 3 dimensions of love are experienced in the family as a child, as a spouse and as a parent.Fully maturing our love is necessary as a preparation for our life in the spiritual world. It is part of God's plan. God is the ultimate source of love but the different dimensions of love has to be experienced for our spirit to grow.

Catholicism instituted celibate priesthood in the 11th century but St Peter was married. I read recently that 150,000 had left in order to be married. Here in America, the Catholic church has paid billions because os sexual scandals. I believe that we are in the last days and the rules of restoration are changing. God's centered marriage is part of spiritual growth and building the kingdom.

 

[nativeastral]

Yes, secular individualisn is a major problem

maybe need to take a look at the salvatory individualism of christianity

It´s Secular Because It´s Christian: Europe Seeks its Identity Card

 

[soleil10]

No, that's a complete and utter error — salvation is not through the family, salvation is through Christ alone.
The Greek term for 'heresy' is from the verb 'to choose' — and what you're doing is classic heresy: You've chosen one aspect, and emphasised it to the exclusion of all else, so much so that message has become completely distorted. The family has nothing to do with salvation — Christ's self-sacrifice on the Cross is the Redemption of a fallen humanity, everything else is subsidiary to that.

Thomas, I would like to emphasize that when I speak of the family I am really speaking about Love. The family is the school of love. When God is at the center such family, he wants to dwelve there. Of course that love can be extended all the way to the whole society.

When we read "God so loved the world that He gave his only son, love is the central word of this verse.

 

[Thomas]

Thomas, I would like to emphasize that when I speak of the family I am really speaking about Love.

Ahhh. That rather changes things.

Let me refer to your original post then ...

As a whole, Christianity is not projecting and teaching a clear hopeful theology of the family on earth and in heaven. The ideal is not represented by the family.

I would refer you to Pope John-Paul II's "The Theology of the Body", widely regarded as a jewel of his pontificate.

So the Catholic Church for is is projecting that teaching, but you can't ram it down people's throats, whereas secularism and our materialist-consumerist culture panders to the 'appetites of the flesh' as it were, and the chimera of 'personal freedom'.

Thomas

 

[bob x]

Thomas, I would like to emphasize that when I speak of the family I am really speaking about Love.

And yet when you speak, you lead off with expressions of Hatred.

 

[soleil10]

And yet when you speak, you lead off with expressions of Hatred.

I can always improve my writing but please do not hate me for standing up against the constant propaganda on homosexuality, the agenda to make it acceptable and the intolerence against those like me who do not agree and stand up for their conviction.

 

[bob x]

I can always improve my writing but please do not hate me for standing up against the constant propaganda on homosexuality, the agenda to make it acceptable and the intolerence against those like me who do not agree and stand up for their conviction.

You are fighting against the agenda to make MY EXISTENCE acceptable.

 

[citizenzen]

I can always improve my writing but please do not hate me for standing up against the constant propaganda on homosexuality, the agenda to make it acceptable and the intolerence against those like me who do not agree and stand up for their conviction.

Soleil,

Let me put that on a T-shirt...

The intolerance
of the intolerant
is intolerable!

​

Or maybe you prefer...

I'm intolerant as Hell
and I'm not going to
take it any more!

​

$9.95. 100% cotton. Small to XXXLarge. Made in America by illegal immigrants who are denied potty breaks.

Order yours today!

 

[soleil10]

You are fighting against the agenda to make MY EXISTENCE acceptable.

Bob, I am sorry to say that this is a very manipulative statement.
I disagree with the agenda of redefining what marriage means.
I believe homosexuals acts and behaviors as many others are unGodly and a poison for the future generations.

To go from the word behavior to existence is a "play the victim" tactic.

 

[bob x]

soleil10, I am what I am; I am as God made me. To say that if I find happiness in my life it is "poisonous" to you is absurd and hateful. Leave me alone, and I will leave you alone.