Why is Christianity loosing the cultural war ?

Well, it's an interesting debate from the standpoint of conservative culture. Social conservatives who want to invoke some kind of divinely inspired agendan connection with their opposition to SS marriage would appear to be in conflict with Constitutional principes as well as out of touch with Christian principles.
Matt. 19:4,?5:[Jesus] said:Did you not read [at Genesis 1:27; 2:24] that he who created them [Adam and Steve] from the beginning made them male and male and said: For this reason a man will leave his father and his father and will stick to his husband, and the two will be one flesh?

Netti sell your theory to God and Jesus.

It is above my pay grade
 
Speaking of war and I know CZ linked us to an article regarding the tragic assassination of Dr. George Tiller. I personally believe that this was an act of domestic terrorism and I am shocked that Tiller was murdered in his house of worship.

Here are some interesting thoughts from Frank Schaeffer, son of Francis Schaeffer, an evangelical pro-lifer leader who in the early 80's wrote the book, A Christian Manifesto.
Frank has now repented of his former involvement with the Christian Right pro-life movement so I think that his article has some revealing insight.

" My late father and I share the blame (with many others) for the murder of Dr. George Tiller the abortion doctor gunned down on Sunday. Until I got out of the religious right (in the mid-1980s) and repented of my former hate-filled rhetoric I was both a leader of the so-called pro-life movement and a part of a Republican Party hate machine masquerading as the moral conscience of America.

In the late 1970s my evangelical pro-life leader father Francis Schaeffer and Dr. C. Everett Koop (who soon become Surgeon General in the Reagan administration) went on the road with me taking the documentary antiabortion film series I produced and directed ( Whatever Happened to the Human Race?) to the evangelical public. The series and companion book eventually brought millions of heretofore non-political evangelical Americans into the antiabortion crusade. We personally also got people like Jerry Falwell, Ronald Reagan and countless Republican leaders involved in the issue.

In the early 80s my father followed up with a book that sold over a million copies called A Christian Manifesto. In certain passages he advocated force if all other methods for rolling back the abortion ruling of Roe v. Wade failed. He compared America and its legalized abortion to Hitler's Germany and said that whatever tactics would have been morally justified in removing Hitler would be justified in trying to stop abortion. I said the same thing in a book I wrote (A Time For Anger) that right wing evangelicals made into a best seller. For instance Dr. James Dobson (of the Focus On the Family radio show) gave away over 100,000 copies."

He goes on to say:

"Angry speech has become the norm in American religion from both the right and the left. Words are spoken which -- when taken seriously -- lead directly to violence by the unhinged and/or the truly committed.

When evangelicals on the right call President Obama a socialist, a racist, anti-American, an abortionist, not a real American, and, echoing the former Vice President, someone who is weakening America's defenses and making us less safe, the logical conclusion is violence. If you take these words literally you might pull the trigger to "make America safe" and/or free us from communism or to even protect us from -- what some "Christian" leaders claim -- Obama as the Antichrist."

And then he offers an apology.

Frank Schaeffer: How I (and Other "Pro-Life" Leaders) Contributed to Dr. Tiller's Murder

I am sooo tired of listening to the rants of extremists who think that our culture is being attacked by evil satanic forces. This type of speech only fuels the fear and I have personally seen what that fear can do..it is very scary to witness and when such teachings hits you over the head like a two ton gorilla, it is also very hard to walk away from your faith community. I admire Frank Schaeffer for doing so and for writing about these experiences.
Namaste Jamarz,

Thanx for posting this, it warms my heart as folks see the light. The author is correct, I was at many peace rallies where folks were shouting kill Cheney or some such nonsense...sometimes they just don't get it. Peace is peace, you don't fight for peace, no such thing as war to end war.
 
I am sooo tired of listening to the rants of extremists who think that our culture is being attacked by evil satanic forces. This type of speech only fuels the fear and I have personally seen what that fear can do..it is very scary to witness and when such teachings hits you over the head like a two ton gorilla, it is also very hard to walk away from your faith community. I admire Frank Schaeffer for doing so and for writing about these experiences.

Amen, Jamrz.

Neither side wins these battles. All we do is bloody each other and prolong the agony.

I'll try to cool my rhetoric and practice peace within these confines of IO and beyond (though some at the sharp end of my barbs may have a hard time believing that).

Peace.
 
Amen, Jamrz. Neither side wins these battles. All we do is bloody each other and prolong the agony. I'll try to cool my rhetoric and practice peace within these confines of IO and beyond (though some at the sharp end of my barbs may have a hard time believing that).Peace.

Being a pacifist in front of Communism or the Nazism is a false peace.

Let me say it in the most loving way I can. I think that ss "Nuptial" is the same . It is a totally rotten ideology.

Taking the fundamental human right of a children to their own father or mother and depriving them intentionally of their own history is pure evil. I will say it again P U R E E V I L

Trying to invade the schools and take advantage of young innocent children by trying to confuse them about gender, sexual orientation etc is also just pure evil.

Like all evil concepts, ss nuptial will fall apart of its own weight after having created so much suffering.

It is the same with irresponsible single parenting and casual no fault divorce. Just pain and suffering

An healthy family is the most important institution that benefit a society.

As America is falling fast, we can see that the main cause is the breakdown of families and our morality. So many of our leaders are the results of broken home or dysfunctional families themselves

Satan wants to block God further from this country with ss nuptial.

Have a great day

Love and Peace
 
Being a pacifist in front of Communism or the Nazism is a false peace.

Let me say it in the most loving way I can. I think that ss "Nuptial" is the same . It is a totally rotten ideology.

Taking the fundamental human right of a children to their own father or mother and depriving them intentionally of their own history is pure evil. I will say it again P U R E E V I L

Trying to invade the schools and take advantage of young innocent children by trying to confuse them about gender, sexual orientation etc is also just pure evil.

Like all evil concepts, ss nuptial will fall apart of its own weight after having created so much suffering.

It is the same with irresponsible single parenting and casual no fault divorce. Just pain and suffering

An healthy family is the most important institution that benefit a society.

As America is falling fast, we can see that the main cause is the breakdown of families and our morality. So many of our leaders are the results of broken home or dysfunctional families themselves

Satan wants to block God further from this country with ss nuptial.

Have a great day

Love and Peace
Can Satan actually block God? :rolleyes:
No, it is we, with our free will, who block God. Would you say that hatred of others is one way we block God?
Galatians 5:16-26
16 I say then, walk by the Spirit (Q) and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires (R) what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don't do what you want. (S) 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: [a] [b] sexual immorality, (T) moral impurity, (U) promiscuity, (V) 20 idolatry, (W) sorcery, (X) hatreds, (Y) strife, (Z) jealousy, (AA) outbursts of anger, (AB) selfish ambitions, (AC) dissensions, (AD) factions, (AE) 21 envy, (AF) [c] drunkenness, carousing, (AG) and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (AH)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit (AI) is love, (AJ) joy, (AK) peace, patience, (AL) kindness, (AM) goodness, faith, [d] 23 gentleness, (AN) self-control. (AO) Against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus (AP) have crucified the flesh (AQ) with its passions and desires. (AR) 25 If we live (AS) by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. 26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. (AT)
 
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Sorry, you cant have one. Your Dad does not like mommies. He got rid of her as soon as you were born.

She was a " throw away mother."

To bad son. May be you can find one on the internet.
 
ARMyers said:
The Whore of Babylon is actually the corrupted Apostate Church fornicating with the world and corrupting itself. It is juxtaposed to the virgin of purity in faith and truth as refered to in 2 Cor 11:2
Those who were false apostles wanted to focus upon refining doctrines. Hints of this from 2Cor are:
2Cor 3:17-18 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

2Cor 11:19-20 For you gladly bear with fools, being wise yourselves! For you bear it if a man makes slaves of you, or preys upon you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face.

The truly fantastically amazing thing about Christianity is the teaching of 'Where the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom' and this I copy paste from you: Revelation 14:4 "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." Which refers to Jesus dialogue with Nicodemus, the Pharisee. Jesus said "The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit."(John 3:8) Nicodemus, though he was a good man, also choked on Jesus lesson just like you are. He said "How can this be?" Jesus explanation of 'born again' refers to a new spiritual freedom that challenges your mind, because you go where the spirit takes you.

Contrarily the work of the 'Great Whore' is enslavement. Proverbs 6:26 "For the prostitute reduces you to a loaf of bread, and the adulteress preys upon your very life."(NIV) The Corinthians had found freedom in Christ, but false apostles threatened to enslave or corrupt them through adherence to doctrines. Sometimes this included things like circumcision. This would have been a tragedy as these believers had been "Redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."(Rev 4:14) They were virgins because they were not corrupted by adherence to man's doctrines, but lived by the spirit. They were like the wind.

ARMyers said:
Whores or whoredoms are many of times references to those nations or peoples that corrupt themselves and do things wicked and unseemly and are not of the Lord. Those nations and peoples of the Lord who do as the Lord commands are always referred to as virgins. Note:
not every place where it says virgin or whore is this symbol. Sometimes it literally means a virgin or a prostitute.

The greatest evidence of this juxtaposition is Ezekiel 23 in the comparison of the whoredoms of Samaria or Israel and Jerusalem or Judah to the state of their virginity prior to fornicating themselves with the other nations.
Yes, but how does this support your point of view about doctrinal purity being so important? Isreal pursued idolatry, but corrupt doctrine was one of the punishments. Israel was punished with division, corrupt doctrines, enslavement, bad leaders and other plagues. The plague called 'Blindness' covers most of these. (Blessings & Curses Deut 28) The point is following the LORD. If Isreal follows, then blessings. If no follow, then plagues.

As for us: Jesus mentions David as an example of someone who 'Had a heart after the LORD' yet who actually did not adhere very well to doctrines and rites. Better that than for him to be an idolater! So the free follow the LORD, not rules. They work for the good of their fellow beings.
ARMyers said:
Therefore, the chosen people, now no longer confined by a nation but set forth unto all peoples of every nation, are the virgins who love the Lord and follow His commandments through Christ Jesus for if you truly believe in Christ then you will follow his commandments (John 15) which are all rooted in love for one another. Those that have corrupted themselves and no longer follow the Lord (such as in Ezekiel 23 in reference to Israel and Judah) are prostitutes and are a part of that collective group that is the Whore of Babylon, which is the Apostate Church, as part of the prophecy of things to come starting from the period of John.
I feel that you have misread this verse, but I will take another look.

ARMyers said:
Therefore, this virgin is collectively people that follow the Lord in faith, truth and love. In Rev 14:4 the virgins are "redeemed from among men," which stands to reason that they were amongst men on earth and did not defile themselves with women (as it also says) also on earth. It stands to reason the Virgin Bride is not New Jerusalem but the body of believers that follow Christ and worship the Father. Scripture supports this claim.
See above, David is the given example for following the LORD. Jesus separates following the LORD from keeping in step with the rest of the group. By doing so, he removes opportunity for teachers to enslave people.

Revelation 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband;


ARMyers said:
The "seed of the woman" is a prophecy of Christ. It is the same seed promised to Abraham and to David as spoken by Paul. It is a promise of redemption from the curse of death. The "bruising of the heel" is a prophecy of the crucifixion, but because death could not hold Christ because he had not sinned, he rose and thus was not "crushed" but merely "bruised" by the serpent.
Christ is the word that dwells among us, aka the seed of the woman in the prophecy. (John 1) The word gives us power to become sons of God, and it is also called the 'word of truth' which gave each of us 'birth'.(James) He that is freed by the Son really is free. (John 8:36)
 
Sorry, you cant have one. Your Dad does not like mommies. He got rid of her as soon as you were born.

She was a " throw away mother."

To bad son. May be you can find one on the internet.
Ah, yes, you've provided the perfect answer to your thread title.

And the answer is....


drum roll please....


Christians.



(note, not all of them,
just the ones represented by the bumper sticker)
253939868v3_350x350_Front.jpg
 
Matt. 19:4,?5: [Jesus] said . . . :D
I appreciate your fortitude, but the passage doesn't help. There is no mention of same sex marriage in the Bible. It also doesnt say anything about the merits discriminating against sexual minorities.

In fact, the Bible does not include any idea of sexual orientation as being exculsive. I don't think that means much except maybe that the ancients were all bisexual or polymorphically perverse.

The fact that there is no reference to SS marriage in the Bible does not rule it out as a possibility. There are many things that are not anticipated in the Bible, including a civilization where slavery and prostituting your daughter are illegal. As described in the Bible, both were acceptable at one time.

Netti sell your theory to God and Jesus.
It is clear that that's what you're trying to do.

“One of the severest lessons to learn is to leave the cases we don't understand to G-d.” (Oswald Chambers) I'm not interesteted in arguing the legitimacy of same sex marriage. It's out of my realm. I'm merely question whether there is a basis for opposing it. I see none in the Bible and you are misleading us to think there is.
 
Being a pacifist in front of Communism or the Nazism is a false peace.

Oooookay. :confused:

WWII ended over 60 years ago. And who's the commie at our front door steps today?

I said in my post: "I'll try to cool my rhetoric and practice peace within these confines of IO and beyond..."

But I swear to you soleil10, if any nazis or commies invade this forum, I'll be in that foxhole* right beside you, blasting them with everything I've got. Cover me!
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*An atheist in a foxhole?
 
Myers, I realize whatever I write leaves something to be desired. I actually am wondering if you know of a resource with more information about the masculine/feminine aspect of the seed in Genesis 3?

Some things I left out about the 'Seed of the woman' are prophecies and indicators in Scripture that talk about the feminine aspect of messiah.(my opinion) If I think about it that is what I think 'Seed of the woman' should mean. That seems to me why Jesus, being a man, had to come from a virgin. It makes me also wonder about the problem of Queen Athaliah. You are probably the best person to ask about that. Do you notice in Judges a tendency towards female leadership? I was wondering whether Judges 14:14 Sampson's riddle could have been about that. Also, I wonder how Deborah's victory over Sisera factors in, and what was problematic about having a female be victorious in battle? What's the problem with that?

Judges 14:14 And he said to them, "Out of the eater came something to eat. Out of the strong came something sweet." And they could not in three days tell what the riddle was.

Gen 3:14 "....seed of the woman..."
 
Myers, I realize whatever I write leaves something to be desired. I actually am wondering if you know of a resource with more information about the masculine/feminine aspect of the seed in Genesis 3?

Some things I left out about the 'Seed of the woman' are prophecies and indicators in Scripture that talk about the feminine aspect of messiah.(my opinion) If I think about it that is what I think 'Seed of the woman' should mean. That seems to me why Jesus, being a man, had to come from a virgin. It makes me also wonder about the problem of Queen Athaliah. You are probably the best person to ask about that. Do you notice in Judges a tendency towards female leadership? I was wondering whether Judges 14:14 Sampson's riddle could have been about that. Also, I wonder how Deborah's victory over Sisera factors in, and what was problematic about having a female be victorious in battle? What's the problem with that?

Judges 14:14 And he said to them, "Out of the eater came something to eat. Out of the strong came something sweet." And they could not in three days tell what the riddle was.

Gen 3:14 "....seed of the woman..."

Wow. Can you guys over-analyze or what?

Let's imagine that you knew the answers to every question you posed. What would that change? It's ironic that in a religion that relies on faith, you are so obsessed with ferreting out scriptural details. Will these details strengthen your faith?
 
Why don't you refresh our memories as to just how the Nazis treated homosexuals, soleil? How about Stalin? (Here's an article to help you get started, if you'd like.)

Concerning the Nazis you may want to read the Pink Swastika
“The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party is a thoroughly researched, eminently readable, demolition of the “gay” myth, symbolized by the pink triangle, that the Nazis were anti-homosexual. The deep roots of homosexuality in the Nazi party are brilliantly exposed . . .”

Now if it is Nazism, Communism or Homofacism, they are all based on a flawed Godless ideology.

Casual no fault Divorce, intentional irresponsible single parenting, ss Nuptial victimize children to the deepest place in their soul. They later carry their scares to the next generation.

Our western civilization is in steep decline. This financial crisis is after all a moral crisis. We have not seen the end of it.

Kinsley, the father of sexual freedom without limit was a closeted homosexual.
Mass perversion of heterosexuality was the first step before pushing homosexuality.

God made us heterosexual by design. Sex belongs within marriage.Everything else is trouble

It has nothing to do with hatred from my part as you seem to imply.
 
Wow. Can you guys over-analyze or what?

Let's imagine that you knew the answers to every question you posed. What would that change? It's ironic that in a religion that relies on faith, you are so obsessed with ferreting out scriptural details. Will these details strengthen your faith?
Look, I realize there are two conversations going on but it can't be helped. What's wrong, zen? Something gotten in your fur today?
 
Look, I realize there are two conversations going on but it can't be helped. What's wrong, zen? Something gotten in your fur today?

No more than normal... I just have to shake my head over the desire to parse scripture to the nth degree.

Isn't it clear what you need to do to connect with God? I don't recall Jesus teaching that one needs to decode the Bible. What was it he said again?
 
It has nothing to do with hatred from my part as you seem to imply.

It has little to do with you making sense either.

Maybe we can get one of the Bible decoders to put the good book down and try decipher your last post. Now that would be quite a challenge.
 
I appreciate your fortitude, but the passage doesn't help. There is no mention of same sex marriage in the Bible. It also doesnt say anything about the merits discriminating against sexual minorities.
In fact, the Bible does not include any idea of sexual orientation as being exculsive. I don't think that means much except maybe that the ancients were all bisexual or polymorphically perverse.
The fact that there is no reference to SS marriage in the Bible does not rule it out as a possibility. There are many things that are not anticipated in the Bible, including a civilization where slavery and prostituting your daughter are illegal. As described in the Bible, both were acceptable at one time.
It is clear that that's what you're trying to do.
“One of the severest lessons to learn is to leave the cases we don't understand to G-d.” (Oswald Chambers) I'm not interesteted in arguing the legitimacy of same sex marriage. It's out of my realm. I'm merely question whether there is a basis for opposing it. I see none in the Bible and you are misleading us to think there is.

Netti, it was a pun answer a la Obama.

The whole bible from Genesis to revelation is about marriage, holy marriage.
The first marriage was not blessed by God. The bridegroom and bride were kicked out of the Garden. Jesus came as the bridegroom but was rejected and killed. Now Christianity is waiting once again for the banquet of the marriage of the lamb...and you seriously think that God is going to bless so called "gay marriages".
God had no choice but to go to the bottom and bring back humanity step by step. If you want to look for all the stories when men lived in the stone age and justify your behavior. God had to work with this people and redeem them with only the conditions of faith of a few.

Like in Sodom and Gomorrah, God was ready to save the city if only an handful of people had faith.

The Marriage of one man and one woman and their family is the center of God's creation. He is not going to change. I really think you are underestimating God greatly.

When you write a discourse telling your own opposition (me included) how their strategy is not working. I find that quite surprising. What I am supposed to do. This is why I said "sell it to God".
 
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