Debate on Science

I entirely concur. But what is interesting is that some, such as Tao, would like to make the case that science is uniquely situated to contribute innovation in a way that is not bound by the same obstacles we find in art and other such modes of inquiry.

I'm pointing out that while science is unique in its approach, it faces the same problems that every other mode of inquiry does in its execution.

I do not think science is an uncorrupted, pure ideal by any means. I agree with both you and CZ on everything you have said. Funding biases do sort of make for better science too, even if they can hold back or at least fail to aid major innovation. The very small incremental steps that doing 'safe' science encourages insures rigour and that no big steps are taken that skip vital and perhaps unforeseen information. So, despite its many failings it is almost by accident good for science.

As for Kuhn, I just re-read what Snoopy quoted and my reply and stand by my opinion on that excerpt. As to the man himself I am ignorant and my dismissal of him may well be premature. Yet if that is a flavour of the man as a whole then I do not care how well regarded he is in his field, what he wrote in that quote is rot. Perhaps I am missing some wider context but it seems to me he states nothing but false assumptions.
 
What phenomena? And what better tool is there than the scientific method for studying anything?

Here is a good example of the scientific method in action:
Sleeping on a complex decision may be a bad choice - life - 19 June 2009 - New Scientist

A study was made, its results and methodology were challenged, repeated and improved upon. What better way is there to study anything?
What phenomenon? Take our most fundamental one, consciousness. Vast bulk of research related to that has simply been about correlating neurophysiology to various forms of mental functioning, as if that will ultimately explain it. Now that is fine for what it attempts to do, but folks of a more materialist bent or taking the route of scientism are inclined to claim that consciousness emerges from the brain's processes or we are our brain, showing little apparent interest in anecdotes of NDE's wherein the mind of the individual is obviously functioning with no discernable brain activity. This of course suggests mind is not wholly dependent upon brain for its existence. Those in the same camp-those who embrace scientism-would probably say that until such phenomena are rigorously studied under laboratory conditions we will not even admit its existence. Of course, rather tough to set up that sort of study re NDE's.:) earl
 
What phenomenon? Take our most fundamental one, consciousness. Vast bulk of research related to that has simply been about correlating neurophysiology to various forms of mental functioning, as if that will ultimately explain it. Now that is fine for what it attempts to do, but folks of a more materialist bent or taking the route of scientism are inclined to claim that consciousness emerges from the brain's processes or we are our brain, showing little apparent interest in anecdotes of NDE's wherein the mind of the individual is obviously functioning with no discernable brain activity. This of course suggests mind is not wholly dependent upon brain for its existence. Those in the same camp-those who embrace scientism-would probably say that until such phenomena are rigorously studied under laboratory conditions we will not even admit its existence. Of course, rather tough to set up that sort of study re NDE's.:) earl
Individual accounts for NDE's do not in any way shape or form constitute evidence for conciousness extending beyond the 'living' human brain. Nobody has ever come back from brain death. Having had a general anaesthetic I can give my own testimony to the sensation of being out of body. It is a common symptom of losing conciousness, nothing more.
 
Individual accounts for NDE's do not in any way shape or form constitute evidence for conciousness extending beyond the 'living' human brain. Nobody has ever come back from brain death. Having had a general anaesthetic I can give my own testimony to the sensation of being out of body. It is a common symptom of losing conciousness, nothing more.
Under anestheia, you had brain activity. I'm speaking of those who had none. But, Tao, you are my poster child for scientism and always by your posts an example of which I speak.:) earl
 
Under anestheia, you had brain activity. I'm speaking of those who had none. But, Tao, you are my poster child for scientism and always by your posts an example of which I speak.:) earl
I do not believe for a moment that anyone with no brain activity has ever reported such things. They are all dead.
 
Netscape Search
You mean like that?:)

NDE's that involve an individual "seeing" what others in other rooms are doing suggest mind is transspatial. But many years of psychic research suggests that and the work of Ian Stevenson in reincarnation suggests it's transtemporal. However, mainstream science does not embrace such not just because of all the Kuhnian stuff Kim has mentioned but also because such flies in the face of the deepest biases of all: the accepted notions of reality. earl
 
I do not think science is an uncorrupted, pure ideal by any means. I agree with both you and CZ on everything you have said. Funding biases do sort of make for better science too, even if they can hold back or at least fail to aid major innovation. The very small incremental steps that doing 'safe' science encourages insures rigour and that no big steps are taken that skip vital and perhaps unforeseen information. So, despite its many failings it is almost by accident good for science.

As for Kuhn, I just re-read what Snoopy quoted and my reply and stand by my opinion on that excerpt. As to the man himself I am ignorant and my dismissal of him may well be premature. Yet if that is a flavour of the man as a whole then I do not care how well regarded he is in his field, what he wrote in that quote is rot. Perhaps I am missing some wider context but it seems to me he states nothing but false assumptions.

scientific methodology of the western kind - logical positivism, developed concurrently with einsteins theory of relativity, and was 'falsified' by karl poppers criticism, as well as kuhn's, then eventually the positivists themselves, eg carnap, helped by quine's demonstration that distinctions cannot be made between the analytic and synthetic, which the positivists had sought to demarcate [between sense and non sense].

since science uses conventions and models, 'assumptions', and only deals with what is, rather than any values or meaning or oughts it will never existentially satisfy the human mind. science cannot deal with 'explaining' the reason for phenomena; even its models, though successful as a continual developmental process, has not been able to explain even basic laws satisfactorily but uses them to further science in a kind of 'blind faith' way, much like religion, ie they 'trust' that science holds the answers to all questions [eventually].

The problem with logical positivism
 
Tao, I think on Kuhn you are missing the wider context through which to interpret what Snoopy quoted. Kuhn's work was developed, in part, to explain paradigm shifts in science... which do occur, and Kuhn's work has been the best explanation for how and why they occur (in my opinion and those of many other scientists). This Wiki article sums up pretty well and probably would allow you to understand the context a bit better. Kuhn wasn't arguing against science, but rather, being a historian of science, was interested in how it actually works rather than promoting ignorance about its ties to worldview and social dynamics.

Paradigm shift - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for the question about what cannot be approached through science, I think there are a number of factors there. First, there are things that must be approached primarily through philosophy, even if they are considered science, because they are not yet amenable to the scientific method. Much of modern physics is in an in-between space between science and philosophy; math is a language used to express new ideas in this field but so far there is little we can do to prove or disprove many of the ideas that are coming out- string theory, many worlds theory, etc. The definition of science as being always inquiring, always pushing the boundaries of knowledge, is not unique to science alone, but can also be seen in certain types of mysticism, magic, and other such modes of inquiry that I personally would not want to brand as science but whose practitioners often pursue knowledge in an unrelenting way just as scientists do. A gnostic Christian, for example, pursues knowledge as part of their quest for salvation, but I'd not want to call that science. This is why, for me, science is not defined by its goal, but rather by its approach. Otherwise, it rapidly gets quite messy to categorically separate it from many magical systems. And indeed, some modern magicians (not the rabbit out of hat types, but the energy work types) seek to practice magic according to a scientific method of experimentation and documentation of results. So the messiness of human behavior is bad enough on its own without vague and confusing definitions.

Second, science is not always the best method of inquiry because it is not necessarily the best at communicating information. Science is mostly about how things work, not why things are the way they are or how they affect people individually. Generally, when science and math move into the realm of asking "why" and exploring how they affect us emotionally and psychologically, this moves the scientist into the realm of art and philosophy or even metaphysics. Such movement back and forth between modes of inquiry and communication can result in truly beautiful pieces and is not possible by sticking to the scientific approach without application through the arts... One lovely example is: Tom Shannon's anti-gravity sculpture | Video on TED.com

I also love this man's work; I have a few pieces: PORCELAINia

Third, every person is different. Gardner's work on multiple intelligences, as well as others' work (such as Silver and Strong) on learning styles, indicates that different people naturally learn information, process it, and are inherently good at things through different approaches. We evolved to have this diversity for a reason, so why place some people (the analytical-mathematical ones) superior to all others? Why not embrace the diversity inherent in human modes of inquiry?
 
What phenomena? And what better tool is there than the scientific method for studying anything?

Here is a good example of the scientific method in action:
Sleeping on a complex decision may be a bad choice - life - 19 June 2009 - New Scientist

A study was made, its results and methodology were challenged, repeated and improved upon. What better way is there to study anything?
And how about these...

How Many Scientists Fabricate And Falsify Research?

Medical Study: Don’t Trust Medical Studies

All the above estimates are calculated on the number of frauds that have been discovered and have reached the public domain. This significantly underestimates the real frequency of misconduct, because data fabrication and falsification are rarely reported by whistleblowers (see Results), and are very hard to detect in the data. Even when detected, misconduct is hard to prove, because the accused scientists could claim to have committed an innocent mistake. Distinguishing intentional bias from error is obviously difficult, particularly when the falsification has been subtle, or the original data destroyed. In many cases, therefore, only researchers know if they or their colleagues have wilfully distorted their data.
 
Netscape Search
You mean like that?:)

NDE's that involve an individual "seeing" what others in other rooms are doing suggest mind is transspatial. But many years of psychic research suggests that and the work of Ian Stevenson in reincarnation suggests it's transtemporal. However, mainstream science does not embrace such not just because of all the Kuhnian stuff Kim has mentioned but also because such flies in the face of the deepest biases of all: the accepted notions of reality. earl
I bet you her brain was not 'dead'. The language used to say it is doubtlessly misleading. That what happens when doctors write books for that lucrative niche market.
That aside I do not preclude we have an ability to OBE. I just do not believe it lasts beyond death. Without the machine, body, the energy is not produced to sustain it.
 
Native and PoO,

I have to do a bit of your suggested reading before I can respondto you :)

And how about these...

How Many Scientists Fabricate And Falsify Research?

Medical Study: Don’t Trust Medical Studies

All the above estimates are calculated on the number of frauds that have been discovered and have reached the public domain. This significantly underestimates the real frequency of misconduct, because data fabrication and falsification are rarely reported by whistleblowers (see Results), and are very hard to detect in the data. Even when detected, misconduct is hard to prove, because the accused scientists could claim to have committed an innocent mistake. Distinguishing intentional bias from error is obviously difficult, particularly when the falsification has been subtle, or the original data destroyed. In many cases, therefore, only researchers know if they or their colleagues have wilfully distorted their data.

Yeh Wil, I am aware of and appreciate that. But lets face it......they are by nature clever lies.... far superior lies to some others I have seen in certain old bestsellers ;)
 
I bet you her brain was not 'dead'. The language used to say it is doubtlessly misleading. That what happens when doctors write books for that lucrative niche market.
That aside I do not preclude we have an ability to OBE. I just do not believe it lasts beyond death. Without the machine, body, the energy is not produced to sustain it.
I didn't say she died, Tao. I said her mind functioned without brain activity. Your derisive comment about a purported "lucrative " market betrays you're deep in scientism's pocket whereby evidence you can't refute gets dismissed without logical argument.;) To refresh Tao's memory on the definition of scientism: http://search.isp.netscape.com/nsisp/boomframe.jsp?query=scientism&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Dc94541a0f81970a8%26clickedItemRank%3D4%26userQuery%3Dscientism%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.pbs.org%252Ffaithandreason%252Fgengloss%252Fsciism-body.html%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSISPClient%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Ffaithandreason%2Fgengloss%2Fsciism-body.html earl
 
I didn't say she died, Tao. I said her mind functioned without brain activity. Your derisive comment about a purported "lucrative " market betrays you're deep in scientism's pocket whereby evidence you can't refute gets dismissed without logical argument.;) To refresh Tao's memory on the definition of scientism:
And I said I do not believe she had "no" brain activity. I think he is a liar. You can label me what you like if it makes you feel good. And I will continue to regard Earl as gullible and self-delusional.
 
And I said I do not believe she had "no" brain activity.

It's funny that the people who poo-poo measurement want to rely on it so much here.

Just because we couldn't quantify her brain activity, didn't mean that none existed.
 
And I said I do not believe she had "no" brain activity. I think he is a liar. You can label me what you like if it makes you feel good. And I will continue to regard Earl as gullible and self-delusional.

well, first of all, as it occurred during the course of a surgery, all the pertinent medical facts would be documented. Tao scientism's definition using the analogy of Protestant fundmentalism is an apt one for you as you're akin to the fundamentalist who is convinced the world was created 6000 years ago and evolution doesn't exist. Such a person shown geological and palentological evidence to the contrary would dismiss it, saying the authors are just writing for a lucrative niche market-folks who read dry geological and paleontological tomes.:p earl
 
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