Spiritual Free Will

[Thomas]

Buddhism views virtually everything as transient, not just the person...

That's what I mean about the specific paradigm ...

It doesn't matter where will comes from.

D'you think so? I think it's all that matters.

There is a distinction between natural spirit and supernatural spirit, that is a spiritual dimension that is not inherent in the human nature, but a dimension that human nature can open to ... as I see it, most often when people are talking about spirituality, they're talking about what is natural to an ordered human nature as if it was something special or magical, it's need, but it is increasingly rare.

The supernatural is, of course, a whole different ballgame.

What difference does it make that it comes from God or from your own desire?

All the difference in the world, it seems to me. One is real, one isn't ... which one is it, that's the question ... which one are you going to gamble your life on?

What would you change in your life knowing that the source was one or the other?

Well by the experience of those who have been there ... everything ...

Thomas

 

[citizenzen]

All the difference in the world, it seems to me. One is real, one isn't ... which one is it, that's the question ... which one are you going to gamble your life on?

Thomas, please give me a real world example that demonstrates how your choices would change depending on whether you had free will to make your own decisions or they were determined by God.

It may be my personal blind-spot here, but I'm having a very difficult time understanding this issue. It seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. How can we learn if we don't make our own choices? Why, if we do not possess free-will, do we feel as if we do? Why in our society, our judicial system, our interpersonal relationships are we personally judged by the decisions we make if we are not responsible for them? How can we ever be judged by God if we were doing His will the whole time?

 

[Dondi]

How can you be held accountable to a deity if the deity is responsible for your actions? That's like saying the puppet master holds the puppet accountable for it movements!

If you are held accountable, then it must be because you are accountable.

Otherwise, after you died and went to meet God, He'd say something like, "Remember when I got you drunk and made you drive like a maniac through that crowded sidewalk café and kill those ten innocent people? Man! What was I thinking? Now get into Heaven, you little scamp. And let that be a lesson to you!"

Or even worse, you die and meet God and he says, "Remember when I made you abandon your wife and eight children to run off to Costa Rica with your secretary? Well, I'm sending you to Hell for that. Maybe next time you'll think twice before doing what I tell you!"

Huh?

That's precisely my point. If everything is fated or controlled by God, then we couldn't be responsible. I think we are in our present state primarily from the actions of man, ourselves. Divine intervention (that is asking God to intervene) only comes in when we allow it (partly why we pray), however, God will only act according to His Will.

Furthermore, even though man has a form of free will with the microcosm of everyday life (which is our responsibility), I believe there is an underlying current of a divine plan being carried out in the macronism of man's history (which is God's responsibility). You can look at certain turning points in history, particularly when the odds seem against an event or events from happening that changes the intended course (Go read the "What if?" books, particularly in regard to the American Revolution and how many times we ought to have lost). I also believe that some of those events are changed through the power of collective prayer. And that God is able to work around events. But most of what we see are free course. That's why there is both good and evil in the world.

 

[Thomas]

Thomas, please give me a real world example that demonstrates how your choices would change depending on whether you had free will to make your own decisions or they were determined by God.

It may be my personal blind-spot here, but I'm having a very difficult time understanding this issue. It seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. How can we learn if we don't make our own choices? Why, if we do not possess free-will, do we feel as if we do? Why in our society, our judicial system, our interpersonal relationships are we personally judged by the decisions we make if we are not responsible for them? How can we ever be judged by God if we were doing His will the whole time?

Oh, please don't misunderstand me ... and please excuse me, as I think I may have misread you ... I am not saying that if one has God in mind God then determines one's choices, rather I am saying that one's choices are determined according to what end one has in mind.

The same acting agent — me — but a different end in view. But the act is still mine, and so is the responsibility for it.

Thomas

 

[Eudaimonist]

Oh, please don't misunderstand me ... and please excuse me, as I think I may have misread you ... I am not saying that if one has God in mind God then determines one's choices, rather I am saying that one's choices are determined according to what end one has in mind.

The same acting agent — me — but a different end in view. But the act is still mine, and so is the responsibility for it.

How does one come by the end in mind? Is that a choice too?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Thomas]

How does one come by the end in mind? Is that a choice too?

"A life not examined is not worth living" said Socrates.

The first choice is the decision whether or not to look. Most don't ... it takes a lot of effort. Mindfulness again.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Very interesting documentary about the artist David Hockney last night.

One of the things he mentioned was an axiom he had taken from the Chinese — painting takes three things: the hand, the eye, the heart ... and two out of three won't do.

(Hockney spoke of the constant ribbing he, as a Northerner, got at the Royal College of Art in the 60s. He said he used to walk round and look at the other students' work and think, 'If I drew like that, I'd be inclined to keep my mouth shut.')

Watching him pain with such fluidity and skill was an exemplar of what is under discussion here. Hockney is of the 'old school' where draughtsmanship is, for him, a fundamental prerequisite of the artist ... it's the training between hand and eye. Mindfulness and discipline and effort, time and practice and dedication ...

Hockey (looking at a landscape) "Does that painting look empty to you?"
"Well, there's no-one in it."
"I know that ... but does it look empty to you?"
" ... No."
Laughs "No, it's not ... because the artist is there, isn't he?"
"Can one paint an empty room?"
Laughs again. "How can we know what an empty room looks like?"

Thomas

 

[Tao_Equus]

"A life not examined is not worth living" said Socrates.

The first choice is the decision whether or not to look. Most don't ... it takes a lot of effort. Mindfulness again.

Thomas

And affluence, time and the security to enjoy them? I think most people do examine their lives. Just not by your narrow definition of examine.

 

[iBrian]

To the OP: In my own life, in retrospect, there seems to have been a element of Providence at work. I have also felt that I was destined for something since I was very young. I've tried to understand these two things, but I find that I can't turn entirely to face myself and see exactly where my narcissism ends and objective reality begins.

A very good point - and one of the pains of having a sense of predestiny is whether you are actually living it - or whether you only ever had a potential destiny, and you blew it.

It's easy to feel confident when things feel like they are on the right track, but when they don't...

I used to take deja vu in times of lack of confidence as encouragement. I haven't had deja vu in ages.

 

[immortalitylost]

There are a variety of objects on my desk - shall I pick one up and use one? In a normal manner? In some other manner? Shall I stand up, jump up, hop around the room? Apparently any of us has the Free Will to make such decisions, and yet many of these choices may some odd at best, or schizophrenic at worst.

Uh oh, I think I may be crazy... *continues hopping around the room, trying to make music with a fork* LOL

One of the most striking consequences of the new science is that it is not in agreement with the belief of Laplace that an omniscient entity, knowing the initial positions and velocities of all particles in the universe at one time, could predict their positions at any future time.

Well, an omniscient god that was also omnipotent, and was the creator of the universe, and therefore every particle in it, would know a great deal more than some scientists could conclude from an experiment, ne?
So, only omniscient, you're prolly right. Omnipotent, omnipresent, and the creator of all as well as omniscient... well, I'd say he'd pretty much have to know.

It does make a difference if you are in a religious tradition that holds one accountable to that particular Deity. Are we responsible for our actions or is God controlling those actions? What does that do in regards to our judgment in the afterlife, and so on?

Very true. That is a part of the reason why I am befuddled so by the Christian concept of hell. Why must I think so much about everything? My life would be such a simple thing if only I could let things be...

How can you be held accountable to a deity if the deity is responsible for your actions? That's like saying the puppet master holds the puppet accountable for it movements!

If you are held accountable, then it must be because you are accountable.

And this is why it puzzles me that Christians could even question the concept of free will, and still remain in the faith. The two things don't really mesh well.

All the difference in the world, it seems to me. One is real, one isn't ... which one is it, that's the question ... which one are you going to gamble your life on?

Yes, I agree completely with you're belief in free will if you're a Christian. But not everyone is. Play nice.

Well by the experience of those who have been there ... everything ...

Ooo, you mean nde's? Those accounts have always fascinated me bordering on the obscene. What's always struck me most is the vast differences in the experiences. It's like their experience was seen through the filter of their perceptions. I always took it that they couldn't know the full truth, because they weren't staying. But who knows these things...

How can we learn if we don't make our own choices? Why, if we do not possess free-will, do we feel as if we do?

Maybe we feel as if we have free will so that we can learn from the choices we are met with while living out God's plan. But maybe we feel as if we do so that God can watch us debate about it. God would probably find that funny right, he created humor.

, even though man has a form of free will with the microcosm of everyday life (which is our responsibility), I believe there is an underlying current of a divine plan being carried out in the macronism of man's history (which is God's responsibility).

Bazactly... kinda...

Crud, another long post... sry!

See ya!

 

[Thomas]

Ooo, you mean nde's?

No, I was meaning mystical experience. In the terms of this discussion, not necessarily Christian ... but Native American, Buddhist, Brahminic ... which has a lot more to tell us about free will and the spirit.

Thomas

 

[immortalitylost]

Oh, I see. When you said 'been there' I thought that you meant like died. Because near death experiences do make profound changes in the lives of those who experience them. But yeah, there are of plenty of people all over the world that experience the mystical, or the divine every day. The world is full of it, but it's also full of people trying to con people with fake supernatural, mystical, and divine experiences. It's a lot to wade through, but I believe that if someone did enough wading, they would find something truly beyond the limits of the everyday there, hidden amongst the jumble.

 

[phlaem]

Phreedom rings. Who listens?
Who hears phreedom, the phreedom of mee?
Happy phourth, happy phree, happy you, happy mee.
Happy Liberday!

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

A very good point - and one of the pains of having a sense of predestiny is whether you are actually living it - or whether you only ever had a potential destiny, and you blew it.

It's easy to feel confident when things feel like they are on the right track, but when they don't...

I used to take deja vu in times of lack of confidence as encouragement. I haven't had deja vu in ages.

I don't think it's like in "Julius Caesar":
There is a tide in the affairs of men which taken at the flood leads on..." etc
Rather I think we are constantly confronted with the choice, to be authentic, to stay on the tightrope, or to lose focus, to fall away.

So easy to be lulled by the routine of everyday life. In The Trueman Show, Christoff, the program director, says "We accept the reality we are presented with". It takes a true hero like Trueman to see through it.

But I have known times when I was walking an enchanted path. It is almost surreal and intensely exciting, which makes it all the harder when the magic fades and we are left trying to to make our own way through a land where all roads look the same.

If anyone here knows what I mean and can offer advice please do. I'm watching and praying and taking each day as it comes.

Cliff

 

[citizenzen]

But I have known times when I was walking an enchanted path. It is almost surreal and intensely exciting, which makes it all the harder when the magic fades and we are left trying to to make our own way through a land where all roads look the same.

If anyone here knows what I mean and can offer advice please do. I'm watching and praying and taking each day as it comes.

Hey VC. This is why I like Buddhism, it is all about accepting what is and not trying to turn it into a big what if.

A Buddhist, feeling surreal and excited says, "I feel surreal and excited."

A Buddhist, when the magic fades says, "I feel like the magic has faded."

A Buddhist knows that given enough time and patience, they will feel: magic, excitement, elation, numbness, boredom, and pain. None of these states should be clung to. None of these states describes who we are. It is just the natural state of human existence to feel them and watch them go.

Then feel the next thing... and watch that go. You don't need to wait for anything. You don't need to pray. You just take each moment as it comes... and watch it go. And don't worry... another moment will be come along soon after to take the previous moment's place.

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

Sure, I know that. But I'm still human. You know the line from "Sit down next to me":

If I hadn't known such riches I could live with being poor
​

Yeah good times come, good times go, but it's nice while it lasts and dull when it's gone. Then you start to blame yourself - What did I do wrong? which as you say is probably b****cks, but you think it anyway.

Are we still on topic?

 

[citizenzen]

Yeah good times come, good times go, but it's nice while it lasts and dull when it's gone. Then you start to blame yourself - What did I do wrong? which as you say is probably b****cks, but you think it anyway.

But you don't have to think it. It's your choice to not find a better way to think... to live. You are not forced to live the way you do. It's your personal choice... and one you make every moment.

 

[immortalitylost]

Rather I think we are constantly confronted with the choice, to be authentic, to stay on the tightrope, or to lose focus, to fall away.

The way I see it there is no tightrope. Or we unconsciously walk it everyday without knowing we're doing it.

That's why I say that we have both free will and are predestined. We feel as if we have free will. We can't feel a pull, or an ease in the decision making towards a certain choice. We can't feel predestination at work.

But maybe we can't fall away from the tightrope. Maybe, even though it feels as if we're deciding, we were destined to make the right choice every time. And I don't mean the right choice for us necessarily-the tight rope can run through some pretty rough times while still being the right path-but we always make the right choice in the big scheme of things.

Even if we feel like we have messed up. Because we don't know what is right in the big scheme of things, right for us, or for the world.

But I have known times when I was walking an enchanted path. It is almost surreal and intensely exciting, which makes it all the harder when the magic fades and we are left trying to to make our own way through a land where all roads look the same.

The magic doesn't fade, just your perception of it. When things go bad for us, we confuse it with things going bad for the universe. Because we perceive only us, and we perceive only now. Bad times are part of the universe, and someone consequently has to go through them. Sometimes it's you, sometimes it's not. It's all relevant, and as intended.

You can't mess up an as near limitless thing as the universe with something so small as a wrongly made choice. If you could, don't you think the whole thing would have crumbled by now?

Hey VC. This is why I like Buddhism, it is all about accepting what is and not trying to turn it into a big what if.

A Buddhist, feeling surreal and excited says, "I feel surreal and excited."

A Buddhist, when the magic fades says, "I feel like the magic has faded."

A Buddhist knows that given enough time and patience, they will feel: magic, excitement, elation, numbness, boredom, and pain. None of these states should be clung to. None of these states describes who we are. It is just the natural state of human existence to feel them and watch them go.

Then feel the next thing... and watch that go. You don't need to wait for anything. You don't need to pray. You just take each moment as it comes... and watch it go. And don't worry... another moment will be come along soon after to take the previous moment's place.

And that is what I love about Buddhism. It's so sensible. It gives such meaning to our lives as we perceive them, without trying to grasp and make sense of the unknown. But I like the unknown also. And that's why I'm not Buddhist, or Christian, or Hindu, or any other religion completely. I just take them at face value, parts of the whole of this world, and then realize that because of that, I can never believe that just one is completely right. They are all here, and therefore relevant in some way, and I take from them what I perceive as relevant, and leave the rest for those that find the separate religions relevant as a whole.

Phew. I'll stop just short of novel length, thank you!

See ya!

 

[Gatekeeper]

I don't think it's like in "Julius Caesar":
There is a tide in the affairs of men which taken at the flood leads on..." etc
Rather I think we are constantly confronted with the choice, to be authentic, to stay on the tightrope, or to lose focus, to fall away.

So easy to be lulled by the routine of everyday life. In The Trueman Show, Christoff, the program director, says "We accept the reality we are presented with". It takes a true hero like Trueman to see through it.

But I have known times when I was walking an enchanted path. It is almost surreal and intensely exciting, which makes it all the harder when the magic fades and we are left trying to to make our own way through a land where all roads look the same.

If anyone here knows what I mean and can offer advice please do. I'm watching and praying and taking each day as it comes.

Cliff

Imagine you are on a ship, and you are the captain. God is the wind, or rather the force, or "magic" that moves you forward. He pushes you giving you momentum, but 'you' are still guiding the ship yourself.

He created all things, so all things play a part in our decision making - Just like a change of wind direction should move us to re-arrange the sails. God knows where we are headed, but we ultimately navigate, only we do so in accordance to our life circumstance.

God knows all things from beginning to end. We set our sails and guide the ship how we choose, but life circumstance ultimately moves us to make change.

What I'm suggesting is that control is somewhat an illusion - God is in control, we merely make our decisions based on environment. Even so, our choices are real and work for either our benefit or detriment.

We will eventually learn to not hit the rock strewn shore, but we need to recognize the light house ("The Love and Wisdom of God"). If we remain blind to the light, the ship is bound to hit the shoreline and either get stuck or sink. That is where free will comes to play. We either learn from our stuck or sunken ships, or we don't.

What I'm suggesting is that free will is basically isolated to ones willingness to learn from our experiences. If you are seeing the same old road then perhaps it's time to adjust your sails? The magic is still there (It's always there). Just allow the wind to "move" you forward again. Remember that God is ultimately in control, but it's up to you to navigate the ship. That's my only advice bro.


GK

 

[immortalitylost]

Nice post. Nice analogy. Kudos all around, GK.