the deep flaw in both PRAYER and MEDITATION

Penelope

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The short answer:
I think therefore I am.

(back to that, later)

& & &

You ever play around with a Weegee Board as a kid?
Ever figure out how it worked?

I did.

& & &

"Who is Penny sweet on?" Julianne asks.

The sliding pointer whirls a couple times around the board and stops at the letter D.
No. Please, no.
I say to myself.
Four sets of fingers touch the slider, rapt anticipation on everyone's faces, except my own. The slider stops at letter A.
No. No. No. No. No.
My face turns red.
Everyone giggles as the slider quickly stops at N, then back to N, then finally - painfully - at Y.
I cringe.
But I quickly recover.

"Who is Julianne sweet on?"
I ask. And the slider starts whirling.
(Payback.)

& & &

The Weegee plumbed my subconscious.
I was determined next time to beat the thing. And I did.

By force of will, I could shut down access to my subconscious.
Later I discovered I could will the pointer anywhere I wanted it to go, almost all the time.

"Who is Julianne sweet on?"
The pointer whirls and spells out A-L-I-C-E then C-O-O-P-E-R, a rock-n-roller I knew Julianne detested.
Ha. Ha.
I secretly smirk.

I had gained control of my subconscious by an act of will, where everyone else touching the Weegee pointer is, each, still victim to her (or his) own subconscious.

But "playing god" becomes tiresome, and I put the Weegee Board away and move on to other amusements.

& & &

Jump to the year 2002, West Wing of the White House:

A morning in the autumn. Condoleezza Rice, George W. Bush, and Dick Chaney meet to talk together, informally around the table, after breakfast. It is not a formal, procedural get-together like a Cabinet meeting. It is easy-going and offhand. They use each other's first names.

The conversation is thus a little bit like a group prayer-meeting. A little bit like a session with a Weegee Board.

This morning's topic is Iraq. They are trying to decide whether to invade or not.

Who's position, do you suppose, wins out?
(Who do you think has the strongest Will in the room?)

& & &

This, too, is what is both powerful and dangerous about Religion.

Religion's primary appeal is to a person's Subconscious. Usually the person with the strongest Will in the room ... wins out.

If that's the Preacher or Sensei or Rabbi or Priest or Spiritual Guide (by whatever name), that usually is for the best. That person has training in the art of navigating the Subconscious. And, if their heart is in the right place and their Will is stronger than any other member of their congregation, more good than bad usually comes from this situation.
(But not always.)

& & &

As a kid, watching my parents meditate, I asked them to teach me how to Meditate.
(How to relax, and to turn off Attachment to Things which I have, and to turn off Desire for Things which I don't have.)
In adolescence, my Christian friends taught me how to Pray.
(How to relax, and to stop listening to what I Want and to start listening to what Thou Wants.)
So I have had some experience with both of these traditional techniques for divining the will of the Divine.

& & &

Both Meditation and Prayer had been effective ways to shut down my everyday Ego. Turn off the "I" voice for a little while, and listen for other voices inside me to speak up. The neat trick about Meditation and Prayer, is that the process turns off the Ego without opening the door to the Id. Meditation and Prayer keep the door to the Id soundly closed.

That, in turn, opens up the door to the Superego. The Superego is the psyche's stand-in for "everybody else," for society, for one's network of relationships. In that sense, for one's conscience. For one's higher or better self.

It is a little tryst with ... everyone but me.

& & &

Meditation and Prayer exist within this closed world ... home to the psyche - a place called the Subconscious.

The Subconscious is also the place where a person dreams (but, in dreams, the Id is instead let loose). A dream - the brain-waves of REM, rapid-eye-movement - is a spontaneous, chaotic flow of symbolic imagery. A dream will appear irrational, but contains within itself an occult rationality - meant to heal all that day's nicks and bruises to the psyche.

Meditation and Prayer, though, have instead a certain overt clarity to them. Not an irrational-seeming miasma. Meditation and Prayer, each, are like "lucid dreaming" - except that the Id is entirely locked out.

Locked out, too, is the Divine.
(Divine = Transcendental Emptiness or God or whatever.)
And, given that this is a closed ecosystem, the Subconscious, with only two doors ... it is like there is a clear Plexiglas dome over the top of it, a skylight. The Divine is up there knocking, but is unable to gain direct entrance. The Divine can only hope - given the free will of the individual - that the psyche's stand-in for, and interpreter of, the Divine will do the right thing. That the Superego will tell the psyche,
"Do what's best for everybody involved."
But since the Divine does allow the psyche its free will, there will be no guarantee of this. No guarantee that the 'best for everybody' will in fact occur.

& & &

So here is the flaw.
(The flaw with Meditation and Prayer.)

Remember the Weegee Board?
The Will can override the natural workings of the Subconscious. The Ego can trick the Superego into going its (the ego's) egocentric way. The Superego then can, confidently (but blindly), trust that the action the real person is now taking in the real world is a Righteous action.

But a Righteous action, while usually an act of Good Conscience, is sometimes just this ... instead, an act of Strong Will.
(The Ego gets its way, disguised as an act of Superego. The action, in bitter truth, is an act of severe Bad Conscience.)

The human Subconscious, by its nature, is a flawed decision-making mechanism.
(Likewise flawed are Meditation and Prayer, as principal sub-leasers of the Subconscious.)

( ... a Weegee Board decision-making system ... )

& & &

{continued next post}

 
{continued from previous post}

& & &

I think therefore I am.

This is where the problem starts.

Both the Western and the Eastern cultural/religious traditions ... put a primacy on Thinking.
Of all neurochemical human processes, Thinking is the most valued. Unlike feeling/emotion/passion, Thinking appears to be "clean," "clear," disinterested. People dealing, together, with a problem ... if they each - individually - use Thinking to deal with it, they can all come to a Logical Consensus regarding how to proceed.

Thinking is a godsend, because it is a neutral tool.

Every interaction takes place in the lambent, shadowless Light of Consciousness.

Except ...

This is not how group-dynamics actually works. Persons, every day of their lives, internally Will things to be logical - things which are NOT, in themselves, the least bit logical. One person's noonday Light is another person's sunset Light.

Group-dynamics never take place at a uniform 100% Conscious level. Much of it takes place slightly (or severely) below Consciousness.

And those aspects of group-dynamics which are allowed to take place at the Subconscious level ... ? Well, remember the Weegee Board ...

(Remember who gets their way, most often. Remember who gets to "play god" ...)

& & &

I think therefore I am.
Thinking = Consciousness.

The entire Theory of Mind - all Classical Metaphysics - is a blind alley. You enter it, believing you are going somewhere. Plain fact is, you are NOT. It is a Dead End.

You need a different starting point than - I think therefore I am.

& & &

I know.
Superficially, it does not seem like Meditation and Prayer are each based upon a Theory of Mind. But they are.
They are each a prisoner to SUBconscious processes.

& & &

In today's modern, digital environment ...
Feeling/emotion/passion does not appear quite so dangerous today as it must have seemed during other centuries.
Now there are effective tools to deal with seeming "irrationality."
(Fractals, Chaos, and other branches of Ecological Theory.)

Feeling/emotion/passion is, today, a far better starting-point for making good group and individual decisions than when you begin with "I think therefore I am."

Feeling and emotion and passion are each forms of AWARENESS, fortunately they are not forms of Consciousness.

"Awareness," admittedly, has many of the same troublesome qualities as does the Subconscious.
(A person is aware of all the emotional/affective vibrations going on around them, wanting naturally to align with these vibrations and to distance oneself from those vibrations. It is her or his very awareness of their eco-social environment - affective awareness - which makes this person vulnerable to seduction and manipulation, to surrendering to somebody else's manufactured "image" of how "one should act in this world." Awareness, by its nature, makes her or him vulnerable to subliminal pressure - to one group's promotion campaign or to another group's ideological propaganda. Born of the need to belong. The need to believe.)

Awareness, nonetheless, is a good starting point ... because this is how the modern (global) world works.

& & &

But when feeling or emotion or passion is raised to the level of Self-awareness, that onslaught of vibrations becomes transformed.

Any decision you make is going to support this cause and rebuff some other cause. ANY DECISION.
The trick is, to see the pressure - to see what is going on inside of you.
Pare down the issues inside your head.
Connect only to those rare images which are genuinely pertinent. Make the decision your own.
Good group and individual decisions, that way, can be made - freed of overwhelming subliminal pressure.

(For the role of fantasy in generating this safe zone, see Faith as an emotionally powerful fantasy = visual mind-pictures which touch a person's inner core?, posts #1, #2, #16, #19, #26.)

& & &

There may prove, eventually, to be a serious flaw to Self-awareness, too, regarding the making of good decisions.

But this process is free of the deep Subconscious flaws which plague Meditation and Prayer in our planet's modern eco-social environment.

(And there is more room in Self-awareness for the Divine to play a role than there has ever been within the Subconscious - than there has ever been within the home-turf of Meditation and Prayer.)

 
The short answer:
I think therefore I am.

(back to that, later)

& & &

You ever play around with a Weegee Board as a kid?
Ever figure out how it worked?

I did.

& & &

"Who is Penny sweet on?" Julianne asks.

The sliding pointer whirls a couple times around the board and stops at the letter D.
No. Please, no.
I say to myself.
Four sets of fingers touch the slider, rapt anticipation on everyone's faces, except my own. The slider stops at letter A.
No. No. No. No. No.
My face turns red.
Everyone giggles as the slider quickly stops at N, then back to N, then finally - painfully - at Y.
I cringe.
But I quickly recover.

"Who is Julianne sweet on?"
I ask. And the slider starts whirling.
(Payback.)

& & &

The Weegee plumbed my subconscious.
I was determined next time to beat the thing. And I did.

By force of will, I could shut down access to my subconscious.
Later I discovered I could will the pointer anywhere I wanted it to go, almost all the time.

"Who is Julianne sweet on?"
The pointer whirls and spells out A-L-I-C-E then C-O-O-P-E-R, a rock-n-roller I knew Julianne detested.
Ha. Ha.
I secretly smirk.

I had gained control of my subconscious by an act of will, where everyone else touching the Weegee pointer is, each, still victim to her (or his) own subconscious.

But "playing god" becomes tiresome, and I put the Weegee Board away and move on to other amusements.

& & &

Jump to the year 2002, West Wing of the White House:

A morning in the autumn. Condoleezza Rice, George W. Bush, and Dick Chaney meet to talk together, informally around the table, after breakfast. It is not a formal, procedural get-together like a Cabinet meeting. It is easy-going and offhand. They use each other's first names.

The conversation is thus a little bit like a group prayer-meeting. A little bit like a session with a Weegee Board.

This morning's topic is Iraq. They are trying to decide whether to invade or not.

Who's position, do you suppose, wins out?
(Who do you think has the strongest Will in the room?)

& & &

This, too, is what is both powerful and dangerous about Religion.

Religion's primary appeal is to a person's Subconscious. Usually the person with the strongest Will in the room ... wins out.

If that's the Preacher or Sensei or Rabbi or Priest or Spiritual Guide (by whatever name), that usually is for the best. That person has training in the art of navigating the Subconscious. And, if their heart is in the right place and their Will is stronger than any other member of their congregation, more good than bad usually comes from this situation.
(But not always.)

& & &

As a kid, watching my parents meditate, I asked them to teach me how to Meditate.
(How to relax, and to turn off Attachment to Things which I have, and to turn off Desire for Things which I don't have.)
In adolescence, my Christian friends taught me how to Pray.
(How to relax, and to stop listening to what I Want and to start listening to what Thou Wants.)
So I have had some experience with both of these traditional techniques for divining the will of the Divine.

& & &

Both Meditation and Prayer had been effective ways to shut down my everyday Ego. Turn off the "I" voice for a little while, and listen for other voices inside me to speak up. The neat trick about Meditation and Prayer, is that the process turns off the Ego without opening the door to the Id. Meditation and Prayer keep the door to the Id soundly closed.

That, in turn, opens up the door to the Superego. The Superego is the psyche's stand-in for "everybody else," for society, for one's network of relationships. In that sense, for one's conscience. For one's higher or better self.

It is a little tryst with ... everyone but me.

& & &

Meditation and Prayer exist within this closed world ... home to the psyche - a place called the Subconscious.

The Subconscious is also the place where a person dreams (but, in dreams, the Id is instead let loose). A dream - the brain-waves of REM, rapid-eye-movement - is a spontaneous, chaotic flow of symbolic imagery. A dream will appear irrational, but contains within itself an occult rationality - meant to heal all that day's nicks and bruises to the psyche.

Meditation and Prayer, though, have instead a certain overt clarity to them. Not an irrational-seeming miasma. Meditation and Prayer, each, are like "lucid dreaming" - except that the Id is entirely locked out.

Locked out, too, is the Divine.
(Divine = Transcendental Emptiness or God or whatever.)
And, given that this is a closed ecosystem, the Subconscious, with only two doors ... it is like there is a clear Plexiglas dome over the top of it, a skylight. The Divine is up there knocking, but is unable to gain direct entrance. The Divine can only hope - given the free will of the individual - that the psyche's stand-in for, and interpreter of, the Divine will do the right thing. That the Superego will tell the psyche,
"Do what's best for everybody involved."
But since the Divine does allow the psyche its free will, there will be no guarantee of this. No guarantee that the 'best for everybody' will in fact occur.

& & &

So here is the flaw.
(The flaw with Meditation and Prayer.)

Remember the Weegee Board?
The Will can override the natural workings of the Subconscious. The Ego can trick the Superego into going its (the ego's) egocentric way. The Superego then can, confidently (but blindly), trust that the action the real person is now taking in the real world is a Righteous action.

But a Righteous action, while usually an act of Good Conscience, is sometimes just this ... instead, an act of Strong Will.
(The Ego gets its way, disguised as an act of Superego. The action, in bitter truth, is an act of severe Bad Conscience.)

The human Subconscious, by its nature, is a flawed decision-making mechanism.
(Likewise flawed are Meditation and Prayer, as principal sub-leasers of the Subconscious.)

( ... a Weegee Board decision-making system ... )

& & &

{continued next post}

............................................
 
{continued from previous post}

& & &

I think therefore I am.

This is where the problem starts.

Both the Western and the Eastern cultural/religious traditions ... put a primacy on Thinking.
Of all neurochemical human processes, Thinking is the most valued. Unlike feeling/emotion/passion, Thinking appears to be "clean," "clear," disinterested. People dealing, together, with a problem ... if they each - individually - use Thinking to deal with it, they can all come to a Logical Consensus regarding how to proceed.

Thinking is a godsend, because it is a neutral tool.

Every interaction takes place in the lambent, shadowless Light of Consciousness.

Except ...

This is not how group-dynamics actually works. Persons, every day of their lives, internally Will things to be logical - things which are NOT, in themselves, the least bit logical. One person's noonday Light is another person's sunset Light.

Group-dynamics never take place at a uniform 100% Conscious level. Much of it takes place slightly (or severely) below Consciousness.

And those aspects of group-dynamics which are allowed to take place at the Subconscious level ... ? Well, remember the Weegee Board ...

(Remember who gets their way, most often. Remember who gets to "play god" ...)

& & &

I think therefore I am.
Thinking = Consciousness.

The entire Theory of Mind - all Classical Metaphysics - is a blind alley. You enter it, believing you are going somewhere. Plain fact is, you are NOT. It is a Dead End.

You need a different starting point than - I think therefore I am.

& & &

I know.
Superficially, it does not seem like Meditation and Prayer are each based upon a Theory of Mind. But they are.
They are each a prisoner to SUBconscious processes.

& & &

In today's modern, digital environment ...
Feeling/emotion/passion does not appear quite so dangerous today as it must have seemed during other centuries.
Now there are effective tools to deal with seeming "irrationality."
(Fractals, Chaos, and other branches of Ecological Theory.)

Feeling/emotion/passion is, today, a far better starting-point for making good group and individual decisions than when you begin with "I think therefore I am."

Feeling and emotion and passion are each forms of AWARENESS, fortunately they are not forms of Consciousness.

"Awareness," admittedly, has many of the same troublesome qualities as does the Subconscious.
(A person is aware of all the emotional/affective vibrations going on around them, wanting naturally to align with these vibrations and to distance oneself from those vibrations. It is her or his very awareness of their eco-social environment - affective awareness - which makes this person vulnerable to seduction and manipulation, to surrendering to somebody else's manufactured "image" of how "one should act in this world." Awareness, by its nature, makes her or him vulnerable to subliminal pressure - to one group's promotion campaign or to another group's ideological propaganda. Born of the need to belong. The need to believe.)

Awareness, nonetheless, is a good starting point ... because this is how the modern (global) world works.

& & &

But when feeling or emotion or passion is raised to the level of Self-awareness, that onslaught of vibrations becomes transformed.

Any decision you make is going to support this cause and rebuff some other cause. ANY DECISION.
The trick is, to see the pressure - to see what is going on inside of you.
Pare down the issues inside your head.
Connect only to those rare images which are genuinely pertinent. Make the decision your own.
Good group and individual decisions, that way, can be made - freed of overwhelming subliminal pressure.

(For the role of fantasy in generating this safe zone, see Faith as an emotionally powerful fantasy = visual mind-pictures which touch a person's inner core?, posts #1, #2, #16, #19, #26.)

& & &

There may prove, eventually, to be a serious flaw to Self-awareness, too, regarding the making of good decisions.

But this process is free of the deep Subconscious flaws which plague Meditation and Prayer in our planet's modern eco-social environment.

(And there is more room in Self-awareness for the Divine to play a role than there has ever been within the Subconscious - than there has ever been within the home-turf of Meditation and Prayer.)



Thanks for clearing that up. What's next? :)

s.
 
Fantastic post Penelope!!....did not even take a pitstop! :rolleyes:


Seriously a wonderful post, mirroring some ideas I have been failing miserably to expound over on another thread. I am not meant to use the word but what the hell, one more broken rule aint gona kill anybody, it goes with what I have said in the past saying that prayer/meditation is a purely masturbatory act. It is that inverted into self.

I think that's why I love science, it is the best tool for freeing oneself from self.

5 Star post :)
 
l am therefore l think

its good to internally cleanse the self crud by deconstructing and desolving the me and focusing on the all

masturbation is a relief and a release, so is prayer and meditation, all reverberate out to the world in its own little way
 
:D:cool::cool: Lol, it is true though... not that a little bit of it does any harm :p

At first I was surprised at the five star rating. I didn't know that Freud's trinity were established facts. But now I remember you are a bit of a fan of his. There's a lot of conjecture here isn't there, for a man of your tastes??!!

Penolope says that

"Both the Western and the Eastern cultural/religious traditions ... put a primacy on Thinking."

She is of course entitled to hold any opinion she likes but in my opinion this assertion is simply incorrect (in regard to Eastern traditions, at least the little corner that I feel I know something about).

s.

 
I think therefore I am.

This is where the problem starts.

Both the Western and the Eastern cultural/religious traditions ... put a primacy on Thinking.

Of all neurochemical human processes, Thinking is the most valued. Unlike feeling/emotion/passion, Thinking appears to be "clean," "clear," disinterested. People dealing, together, with a problem ... if they each - individually - use Thinking to deal with it, they can all come to a Logical Consensus regarding how to proceed.

Sorry to rain on the parade, but according to Behavioral Psychology this is incorrect. In my own experience I find people far more receptive to emotional appeals than they ever are to reason and logic. Examine any political campaign for examples.
 
At first I was surprised at the five star rating. I didn't know that Freud's trinity were established facts. But now I remember you are a bit of a fan of his. There's a lot of conjecture here isn't there, for a man of your tastes??!!

Penolope says that

"Both the Western and the Eastern cultural/religious traditions ... put a primacy on Thinking."

She is of course entitled to hold any opinion she likes but in my opinion this assertion is simply incorrect (in regard to Eastern traditions, at least the little corner that I feel I know something about).

s.
Snoppy is quite right in stating that thought does not take center stage in the meditative processes expounded by Buddhism. earl
 
Snoppy is quite right in stating that thought does not take center stage in the meditative processes expounded by Buddhism. earl

Yep.

Snoppy is quite right a lot of the time.

Right, Snoppy?

Let's ask Snoopy how he feels about it all... :D
 
I'm not a Theravdan Buddhist but this description of the stages of jhana within their meditative tradition illustrates that thinking is not what it's all about. In fact, a book on zen published a few years ago by a contemporary Zen teacher was actually entitled "Buddhism: It's Not What You Think.":D earl
Netscape Search
 
On prayer and meditation...

For anyone is interested in prayer and meditation I think the issue is where you are with regard to that..

Over my life I have heard many fervent prayers and would not doubt the sincerety of those praying.. It is intentional and the heart is pure. There are also specific prayers that have been revealed I believed by God's Messengers and in my belief these revealed prayers have a potency that my own prayers don't have ...nonetheless I believe the Lord hears us.. and knows when a feather drops from a bird.

Meditation is another process and whether we use concentration or assume an attitude of detached observing one can enter anorther state of consciousness and I believe as human beings we have an inherent need to transcend from time to time what is going on around us...:)
 
It's an interesting line of thought, but with a lot of problems and assumptions.

First, there are a suite of assumptions about how the human mind works that are based in Freud and not held up by various other branches of psychology and cognitive science. So, there is that issue to tackle.

Second, there are assumptions about what prayer and meditation are and that they put primacy on thought, which is deeply problematic. As others already put forth, and I second/third/fourth, Eastern traditions do not put prime value on thought. In fact, the opposite is the case from my readings and experience. In terms of the Western traditions, you would need to define what you mean by prayer more carefully, as there are more than one type of prayer and these have different functions.

Third, to divorce emotion from thought is problematic, especially when it comes to decision-making. Cognitive sciences, including interdisciplinary work between psychology, neuroscience, the AI world, and anthropology have been demonstrating that human decision-making is a merging of emotion and thought (not to mention emotion and thought are both merging of individual factors, such as personality and intelligence, and cultural conditioning, along with environmental/situational cues).

Basically, none of this stuff is so simple as all this, and the argument depends on a number of assumptions (including about how the Divine works, toward the end) that are interesting but speculative at best.

As for Tao's response, what I find funny is that he chastizes me for being an emotionally-minded person, yet he loves this post that encourages dependency on emotion rather than thought. Hee. I love irony.

Ultimately, this entire thread is one big amalgam of thoughts about other people's thoughts... and so it carries with it all the same flaws supposed by prayer and meditation, if they are defined (incorrectly, I think) as mechanisms of thought. It's a bit inescapable- whenever we criticize the capacity of the mind to think and experience, we bind our own criticisms to the same criticism. To me, there is something delightful about that. It's like a naturally occuring koan. :)

Which gets back to one of the incorrect assumptions about Eastern traditions...

Meditate on koans and one understands why it's not about developing one's thoughts... :)
 
Even within the Christian tradition of contemplative prayer, one reaches the stage of releasing discursive thought and resting awareness in open receptivity. Fundamentally, I tend to believe that that approach to prayer and the Eastern meditative aproaches tend to converge in a similar state of consciousness and why, I believe, you both see so much interfaith dialogue between contemplative Christians and Buddhists and why so many Christians are attracted to adding zen practices to their spiritual regimen. As for the validity of Freudian views, here are some interesting comments including those provided by his own granddaughter: http://search.isp.netscape.com/nsisp/boomframe.jsp?query=scientific+evidence+for+freudian+beliefs&page=2&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Dd943fbbdf6470238%26clickedItemRank%3D21%26userQuery%3Dscientific%2Bevidence%2Bfor%2Bfreudian%2Bbeliefs%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ahrp.org%252Finfomail%252F03%252F11%252F16.php%26invocationType%3Dnext%26fromPage%3DNSISPNextPrevB%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ahrp.org%2Finfomail%2F03%2F11%2F16.php earl
 
Kim, you thought Tao would objectively, ("scientifically") assess a post if fit into his worldview?:p earl
 
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