West vs. "Muslim World"--lets discuss the obvious

[Amica]

Salaam everyone--

Recently, I have come to an article about an Egyptian man who converted from Islaam to Christianity. Apparently in Egypt, everyone is required to register their religious orientation. When the guy got to a government office to register his change of religion, the clerks started cursing him and calling him names, threatening him seriously. The man is insistent to register, even if it means he gets killed.
A sad story, I feel, but unfortunately not uncommon reality for many non-Muslims in the Muslim "World."
Based on what I have read so far, under the Prophet's pbuh political system Jews and Christians had certain rights. Perhaps in some way not the rights that we today would consider 100% equal, but you have to give the Prophet pbuh credit: he tried. Also, according to the other sources I have read, when the first Muslims finally took over Mecca, they avoided retalliation against non-Muslim inhabitants and some sources even state that not all of the Meccans immediately accepted Islaam upon the victory of Muslims.
So. My question to the Muslims is: why should today's Westerners respect Muslims' religious obligations (i.e. hijab) in their countries, when non-Muslims are treated way unfairly in majority Muslim states? Why--many apostate Muslims are threatend with death. No one can forget the Afghan man, holding his Bible and being threatened to be killed because he converted to Christianity?
For many Westerners, I am sure, this comes to be very unfair. Many Muslims come to various Western countries, work, live and educate their children along side other people with various different believes. If they get discriminated against, there are advocacy groups (many led by non-Muslims) to help them out.
But many Muslims in the "Muslim World" go out on streets chanting "Death to .." this or that when a law is passed in the West against hijab, but we do not hear them yell "Death" to the tyrants who prevent non-Muslims to practice their faith freely in the "Muslim World."
Don't get me wrong. The cliche "two wrongs do not make right" is definately true, and I am trully for rights of everyone both in the West and the East.
But, we must be fair/just. After all, our religion instructs us to be just.
So, are some Muslims just when they force a non-Muslim to either leave their homeland for converting to another faith/or even murdering such a person?
How long are we--the Western Muslims going to stand by and watch this injustice?

 

[koranist]

Salaam everyone--

Recently, I have come to an article about an Egyptian man who converted from Islaam to Christianity. Apparently in Egypt, everyone is required to register their religious orientation. When the guy got to a government office to register his change of religion, the clerks started cursing him and calling him names, threatening him seriously. The man is insistent to register, even if it means he gets killed.
A sad story, I feel, but unfortunately not uncommon reality for many non-Muslims in the Muslim "World."
Based on what I have read so far, under the Prophet's pbuh political system Jews and Christians had certain rights. Perhaps in some way not the rights that we today would consider 100% equal, but you have to give the Prophet pbuh credit: he tried. Also, according to the other sources I have read, when the first Muslims finally took over Mecca, they avoided retalliation against non-Muslim inhabitants and some sources even state that not all of the Meccans immediately accepted Islaam upon the victory of Muslims.
So. My question to the Muslims is: why should today's Westerners respect Muslims' religious obligations (i.e. hijab) in their countries, when non-Muslims are treated way unfairly in majority Muslim states? Why--many apostate Muslims are threatend with death. No one can forget the Afghan man, holding his Bible and being threatened to be killed because he converted to Christianity?
For many Westerners, I am sure, this comes to be very unfair. Many Muslims come to various Western countries, work, live and educate their children along side other people with various different believes. If they get discriminated against, there are advocacy groups (many led by non-Muslims) to help them out.
But many Muslims in the "Muslim World" go out on streets chanting "Death to .." this or that when a law is passed in the West against hijab, but we do not hear them yell "Death" to the tyrants who prevent non-Muslims to practice their faith freely in the "Muslim World."
Don't get me wrong. The cliche "two wrongs do not make right" is definately true, and I am trully for rights of everyone both in the West and the East.
But, we must be fair/just. After all, our religion instructs us to be just.
So, are some Muslims just when they force a non-Muslim to either leave their homeland for converting to another faith/or even murdering such a person?
How long are we--the Western Muslims going to stand by and watch this injustice?

As long as you are Sunnis you have no choice but to keep standing by and watching.

Koran gives complete freedom


16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?�

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

21:107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."

22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.

36:16 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe? No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.

109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!

"So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6:113-114

"And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 6:68

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing

Quran is peace and a believer is a believer:


"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (5:69).

124. If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them. (4:124)

O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into races and tribes, so that you may identify one another. Surely the noblest of you, in Allah‘s sight, is the one who is most pious of you. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (Hujurat) 49-13

There is no distinction in religious labels in the Quran. Quran is peace

 

[wil]

How long are we--the Western Muslims going to stand by and watch this injustice?

Namaste and Salaam Amica,

Thank you for your question and thread starter. Profound stuff and needs to be brought to the discussion table worldwide.

I woke up this morning with a similar thought and a consideration to post. We've talked about or around this before, but again it seems the Muslim world needs to have this discussion itself...please tell me if this fits within your discussion or not.

In the US we had a radical group, they are still around today, but they are not gaining numbers or strength like they had in the past. They claim to be Christian, they use the bible to prove their point. They use scripture to insight violence. They are called the KKK. Now if another religion (Jews, Muslims, Hindus...etc.) or another country (a coalition, the UN, NATO, whoeverr) came in and decided to erradicate the KKK because they thought they were wrong, we in the US would be in uproar, anyone coming and telling us what to do (even if they were right).

So this seachange had to occur from within. Americans, white Americans, white Christian Americans, had to stand up against this and say no, this is wrong...now those that did, the polititicians, the prosecutors, the police that took a stand were called every name in the book, and persecuted themselves as there were many politicians, prosecutors, and police in the KKK.

But it was upto us to erradicate or reduce the disease....and it is the same in the Muslim world in my opinion...

 

[Dream]

I do not know how I feel about this 'The West' term, but a problem that 'The West' and Islam share:

I think that Muslims population has increased very quickly in a short span of time, but not enough of you have learned your root languages quickly enough to keep up. Does it seem that way to you? You do well with learning prayers and recitation, however the knowledge of how to read Quran is still very centralized, though I think I see an effort toward more lay knowledge. I notice that there are more resources for learning Qoranic Arabic than ever before. That seems like a good sign. I have noticed that there are many open source projects that aim to have the Quran computer searchable!

Why should I think this is important? Mostly experience and some NT comments have made me think about it. In my Christian experience, I think uneducated believers tend to worship the few that are educated (or who seem to be) which is dangerous. Also, when good but ignorant people or good but inexperienced people are held in too much esteem they easily become arrogant. It is a tragedy, because it can make good people into bad leaders. We have had a lot of this in the US, so please believe me when I say that I have seen this power in action. It happens a lot less often where people are generally knowledgeable about things, because the leadership to step up.

Ok, I am posting in the Islam thread, but I think you have some of the same principles and problems. I think things have been slowly getting better for Christians in the US as lay Christians can now become skilled in the use of concordances and other reference materials. The computer software is very helpful too. It is becoming harder for wolves to pretend like they are authoritative Bible scholars. Also, the ignorant are less frequently elevated to positions that they cannot handle, because the lay persons can call their ignorance and youth into question. It isn't perfect but our situation is slowly improving. There are many Hebrew and Greek Koine resources for Christians, and I think this is improving the lot of Christians and indirectly improves the lot of everyone living here.

 

[Netti-Netti]

.... I am trully for rights of everyone both in the West and the East.

In the US protest can cause traffic problems for motor vehicles as well as pedestrians. To anticipate and manage these problems, protesters are expected to get a permit to organize their event within a given jurisdiction. The permit would say when and where, number of participants, expected, etc. Is there a comparable procedure in predominantly Muslim countries?

 

[Amica]

Salaam/Peace--

Wil, there is no question in my mind that positive changes of any kind for a community must come from within. But, when? So many people out there, when you talk to them, they claim they want to change. Many want to alienate themselves from the bad apples and are quick to make it clear that the philosophies preached by some are not their own. Yet, those same people idly stand by while their religous communtiy is being shaken up by the acts of few.

You mentioned KKK and how if someone from another country would to attack them Americans would stand up against the foreign force. True, KKK is a facist, racist group that in my personal opinion, should not exist. But, for the sake of the argument, KKK did not go to another country attacking it in the name of their version of Christianity (if they did, I never heard of it and please forgive me). In this case I think the attacked country would have reason to seek KKK to disappear fromt the face of the Earth. Now, if Americans would do defend KKK knowing that it attacked another country and in the name of the Christianity (which majority of Americans adhere to), then the world would question the American ideals and where the hearts of the Americans are truly leaning to, no?

I am not saying that Muslims are bad people. I am a Muslim, and I admit that I personally have not been vocal against what is happening in Ummah or world wide. I guess, me like many Muslims out there, reject the injustices being done in our name and believe that if we simply reject it that it is enough. I guess, me, like many Muslims, is awaiting a hero amongst us who would stand up to the opressive regimes in Muslim countries, stand up to the Western forces as well, and who would cause us to grow united and strong, rejecting evil and supporting good. But I have been thinking a lot and now understand that such a person would never come if we do not work towards inviting such a person to emerge amongst us. We do not need a Messiah-like figure to achieve this. Perhaps overcoming our own fears and being more organized and active in the world politics.
Dream, I totally agree with you in terms of The Noble Qur'an and knowledge/familiarity with its language. Many Muslims around the world only know how to pray in Arabic language for various reasons (mostly because of the political/social restrictions imposed on them). But things are slowly, positively changing. I trully believe that if people were to study the Holy Qur'an, that we would be stronger in our faith with much stronger arguments against the extremists who claim to hold all the truth and knowledge of things. Education, I too believe, is the key to defeating prejudices and stereotypes, allowing people to have a better understanding about their faith and world in general. "Read" was the first command Prophet Muhammad saws received from angel Gabriel a.s. This simple command speaks volume and there is so much wisdom in it.
Both Muslim and non-Muslim communities have their challanges and struggles. I think that each can learn a lot of positive from each other if only people would be allowed to establish a better communication between each other without government censorships. A Muslim does not have to be like a non-Muslim to adopt positive western values and vice versa. But how can we build the bridges? How can we overcome those who are afraid for those bridges to be built?
There is one Hadith (Prophet's saying pbuh) that I read, that says that Romans (westerners in general) tend to be successful (i.e. politically), because they stand up to the opressive leaders. And it's so true. People in the West did experience opressive governments, but historically Westerners have come to find a way to overcome them, and come out victorious. Muslims, it seems, for quiet a long time have endured injustices done against them and simply are watching by what is going on. Not only are many Muslims still opressed, but now they find themselves attacked by foreign powers as well. I think that many people in the West are frustrated with Muslims as well, because they may not understand why there is not more activism among the Muslims towards positive changes.
I hope more of my Muslim brothers and sisters will engage in this post--even if it means critisizing me and my opinions. I am up for it--any kind of discussion/debate. This is what we need: discussion, hearing each other. How can we change things without losing our Muslim identity? How can we change things for the better? How can we be just, provide people with rights they deserve and prevent the abuses? How can Westerners and Muslims build relationships of understanding and mutual respect?

 

[Dream]

For my part, I have been forced to accept that I cannot do anything that has an immediate impact. It is a problem that is too big, so I will do what I can in small ways. If I do my part plus a little extra, then maybe the next generation will have a better life.

 

[Muslimwoman]

as salam aleykum Sister Amica and Wil

It is a difficult question for us "western" Muslims Amica. We come from secular societies where everyone's faith is a personal matter. That is simply not the case in countries such as Egypt.

I have met a man (a friend of my husband) in Egypt who changed his faith from Muslim to Christian but he keeps it under his hat so to speak and would never attempt to change his ID. He still lives in the same village, my husband is still friends with him and nobody bothers him (mainly because he keeps it quiet I must add).

Whenever I bring up this subject with Egyptians I always get the same answer "Islam is not a toy, you can't play games with it. If you are born Christian then fine but to convert to idol worshipping it's just not acceptable".

It's a complicated question to answer, in Egyptian society your name immediately identifies you as a Muslim or Christian. It's not only your ID that has your faith written on, it's on marriage certificates, passports and just about every document I have ever seen.

There are a number of practical issues, for example Christians can date but Muslims can't, Christians can drink but Muslims can't and these issues are monitored and controlled in Egypt. If we say everyone in Egypt must be free to change religion do we then say they must be able to choose whether to date or drink?

As Westerners our immediate answer would be yes but as Muslims can we honestly say we should leave our young to have sex before marriage and go out drinking ... because we know many would, even if they regret it later.

Would it be the start of the rot in society we now experience in the West where sexual freedom has led to a massive underage pregnancy rate and a huge burden on society where alcoholics are cared for with public funds?

And that's the question Egyptians face, if you crack the flood gates how do you then stop the flood?

To be Muslim you must believe that the Quran is the finally revealed Word of Allah and that Isa (pbuh) was a Prophet and not the son of G-d. Rejection of that truth is not taken likely in Egypt and people fear the ramifications.

What about the man's children? Remember the children take the faith of the father, they were bron Muslim and to convert to Christianity he is not only putting his own soul in danger but that of his descendants.

I'm not defending it, I do believe we should be free to choose our path to Allah and everything I read about apostacy and the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) suggests to me that faith should be a personal choice but converting to commit treason is punishable by death. I'm just trying to explain what Egyptians have told me when I question them about "no compulsion in religion".

In the US we had a radical group, they are still around today, but they are not gaining numbers or strength like they had in the past. They claim to be Christian, they use the bible to prove their point.

.

Salam Wil

Sorry if I understand you correctly you are suggesting that it's the radical sects who are imposing this and if so that is simply not correct in Egypt. I have had this conversation many times with "everyday" Muslims in Egypt and they all feel the same.

They have no desire to persecute anyone for being born Christian or Jewish but simply do not accept apostacy from Islam (although as I said to Amica will turn a blind eye as long as it's not used as a political tool).

To them Islam is the finally revealed faith and leaving Islam can only mean insanity, being forced to leave or worthy of death .. there's just no middle ground on the subject.

Interestingly, deciding to have gender re-assignment is more accepted than apostacy, even though it's haram to even dress as the opposite sex. Maybe because they see someone who goes through gender re-assignment as a bit loopy anyway?

 

[Amica]

Salaam--

To my western, Muslim mind it still does not make sense. How can apostasy be a treason? When I think of treason, I think in terms of government hierarchy and how it may affect them. The only think an apostate might have a "power" to do is to attempt to convert others to their new-found way of life and nothing else. And he/she would be successful only with those whose iman is already weak.

If apostasy is considered treason, and if in fact there is proof of this belief in the Holy Qur'an, then Muslim scholars and interpreters of the meaning of the interpretation of the Holy Qur'an must revisit "no compulsion in religion."

The way I see it from the Holy Qur'an the only reason God Almighty allowed Muslims to fight unbelievers was when the unbelievers comitted excess in their manifestation of unbelief (i.e. by killing and continually attacking Prophet Muhammad savs and his first followers). The same kind of punishment of destruction suffered every other community that committed excess in their manifestation of unbelief, like Sodom and Gomorrah. God Almighty SWT to me is extremely tolerant.

Why should Muslims fear someone leaving Islaam? Why kill the person, if all he/she wants is to believe something else? Why not show him/her that he/she left the True Path by doing good?

I still do not get it.

 

[Obadiah Abdullah]

So. My question to the Muslims is: why should today's Westerners respect Muslims' religious obligations (i.e. hijab) in their countries, when non-Muslims are treated way unfairly in majority Muslim states? Why--many apostate Muslims are threatend with death. No one can forget the Afghan man, holding his Bible and being threatened to be killed because he converted to Christianity?

I'm reminded (and I forget the small details) of the Canadian mother of a terrorist who laughed at the idea that she should feel pity for Canadians who are killed by terrorism. But when her son was captured by Americans, her lawyer appealed to 'western principles' for his fair treatment. As a Muslim born in America I'm humilated by the behavior of extremists, or even the status quo of the ME. Being a Muslim today is a bit like being a Christian during the inquistion trying to tell someone being tortured what a great guy Jesus was.

Anyway, the 'west' isn't perfect by far, but there are principles and freedom is one of them. Namely, religious freedom.

 

[Rayyan]

sharia law is the only answer

 

[wil]

sharia law is the only answer

I'm afraid to ask what the question was.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman,

Are you free to say your ideas out loud in Egyptian society, even if you are criticised for saying such things? Does it matter who you say these things to, in private vs. public conversations? What would happen to you, if you went on Egyptian television and said these kinds of things?

 

[Amica]

Sharia Law is the answer to many human evil things that corrupt a society, such as: prostitution, stealing, murder, etc.
But Sharia cannot be excuse for killing those lost to the Message of Islam. Allah SWT Himself says in the Holy Qur'an, that if He leaves one on a wrong path, no one will bring him/her back. Basically, if a person earns His Anger, than he/she may be left to continue with his/her own will (guided towards a wrong path).

My understanding of the interpretation of the meaning of the Holy Qur'an is that a Muslim may kill someone only in self defense or if the person commits a despicable crime (i.e. murder). For instance, in the Holy Qur'an it is mentioned that when a large Muslim army surrounded Mecca, Muslims did not attack the unbelievers in Mecca. Allah SWT says in the Qur'an, that He made Muslims calm and prevented them for seeking revenge. Considering what they endured, God Almighty could have allowed them to attack Meccans, but He did not. He wanted Meccans to see the good which they originally rejected.
Also, the Holy Qur'an continually mentions hypocrates, those who say "We believe!" when they are with Prophet pbuh, but as soon as they leave him, they joke on his account and on the account of Islaam. But, Allah SWT promises them hell and allows Prophet pbuh and believers to recognize those two-faced people. Muslims were not instructed to kill hypocrates (at least I did not find the ayat yet). Yet, the hypocrates it is mentioned went to pagans behind the Muslims' backs and rejoiced about anything bad Muslims may have encountered. They were traitors, but were not instructed to be killed just because of it.

 

[Nivek]

A little off topic, but what is does "Allah SWT" mean? Forgive me for my ignorance of Islam lol.

 

[Abdullah]

A little off topic, but what is does "Allah SWT" mean? Forgive me for my ignorance of Islam lol.

Hi Nivek,

Wellcome!

'Allah' is the Arabic word for 'God' and also Gods personel name; it's meaning incorporates the meaning of Gods 99 names/attributes such as the Most Mercifull, the most Compassionate, the All-Knowing, the All-Seeing, The just etc, etc,; here is a link listing Gods 99 names:

The Most Beautiful Names of Allah

And 'swt' stands for 'SubHanahu Wa Tha'ala' which means; 'Exalted Be he'; this is said after Allah's [swt] name as a respect for His name and to glorify Him

Peace

 

[Abdullah]

I think this issue is not a straight forward one as a universal human right, for it is mingled with apostasy which islam has traditionally taken verry seriously, thus we should consider the religious sensetivities here and the fact which muslim woman mentioned that in the Arab or muslim world, religion is to a certain extent entwined with it's politics

 

[Muslimwoman]

Being a Muslim today is a bit like being a Christian during the inquistion trying to tell someone being tortured what a great guy Jesus was.

Wow that is so true but it is our Jihad to endeavor to do so.

Anyway, the 'west' isn't perfect by far, but there are principles and freedom is one of them. Namely, religious freedom.

But what would you be prepared to give up to have that freedom?

Muslimwoman,

Are you free to say your ideas out loud in Egyptian society, even if you are criticised for saying such things? Does it matter who you say these things to, in private vs. public conversations? What would happen to you, if you went on Egyptian television and said these kinds of things?

Hi Nick

I do get severely frowned at when I voice my opinions in public about hadiths not having equal weight with the Quran but then they shrug and pat me like a small child ... clearly I am seen as the village idiot on the subject not being born a Muslim.

Other than that I can pretty much say what I like, most people can (I just get away with more being a foreigner) however Mobarak and his policies is a no go area ... speak out about those in public and go to jail, do not pass go and do not collect £200. Look at the Egyptian blogger Sandmonkey EEK

Also, the Holy Qur'an continually mentions hypocrates, those who say "We believe!" when they are with Prophet pbuh, but as soon as they leave him, they joke on his account and on the account of Islaam. But, Allah SWT promises them hell and allows Prophet pbuh and believers to recognize those two-faced people. Muslims were not instructed to kill hypocrates (at least I did not find the ayat yet). Yet, the hypocrates it is mentioned went to pagans behind the Muslims' backs and rejoiced about anything bad Muslims may have encountered. They were traitors, but were not instructed to be killed just because of it.

Salam Sister

You will not find any verse of the Quran which calls for punishment of an apostate, no such ayat exists .... although the supporters of this punishment say ayat 2:217 gives the punishment for apostates. The Holy Quran only directly speaks of punishment for apostates on the Day of Judgement.

These are the ayats I can find that speak of apostacy and all of them are from the Medina period 2:217, 3:86-90, 4:137, 9:66, 9:74, 16:106-109, 4:88-91, 47:25-27

Interesting isn't it ... in fact can you find any ayat that specifically calls for the death penalty for any crime committed by a Muslim? Nope, neither can I.

 

[Mahmoud]

So. My question to the Muslims is: why should today's Westerners respect Muslims' religious obligations (i.e. hijab) in their countries, when non-Muslims are treated way unfairly in majority Muslim states?

Non-Muslims are only treated unfairly by a small minority of Muslims. Anyone who reads Quran knows to treat all people well.

Why--many apostate Muslims are threatend with death. No one can forget the Afghan man, holding his Bible and being threatened to be killed because he converted to Christianity?

You are right, Sister, but again we cannot blame all the Muslims for the acts of a few.

For many Westerners, I am sure, this comes to be very unfair. Many Muslims come to various Western countries, work, live and educate their children along side other people with various different believes. If they get discriminated against, there are advocacy groups (many led by non-Muslims) to help them out.

Right, as it should be.

But many Muslims in the "Muslim World" go out on streets chanting "Death to .." this or that when a law is passed in the West against hijab, but we do not hear them yell "Death" to the tyrants who prevent non-Muslims to practice their faith freely in the "Muslim World."

Sometimes people are whipped up into a frenzy. They are humans and subject to emotion. They must be educated about what is proper.

Don't get me wrong. The cliche "two wrongs do not make right" is definately true, and I am trully for rights of everyone both in the West and the East.
But, we must be fair/just. After all, our religion instructs us to be just.
So, are some Muslims just when they force a non-Muslim to either leave their homeland for converting to another faith/or even murdering such a person?

No, that is not right and you are correct to bring it to our attention.

How long are we--the Western Muslims going to stand by and watch this injustice?

We must advocate for justice world wide. We cannot force people to treat themselves well, we can only set an example by behaving properly ourselves .

 

[shawn]

We must advocate for justice world wide. We cannot force people to treat themselves well, we can only set an example by behaving properly ourselves .

Excellent statement.
Really it is only the extremists in every religion which make for all the bad press.
I have met people of many religions who are very wonderful people who did not treat me as a lesser being for not being a part of their religion.
Their religion made them "more humane" as a human being, more civilized.
It can happen in every religion as they are just a means to an end and not the end in itself.