Locking the Theosophy Thread

And in Genesis 14.18 Melchizedek was King of Salem who blessed Avraham. Avraham was 10 generations after Shem.



Is there a problem with the chronology ?
According to Genesis, Noah would have died by that time. (Noah died 350 years after the flood.--Gen 9:28) Abraham left for Palestine after 398 years after the flood, if I did my math correctly. (Gen 11:10-31.) However, Shem is supposedly still alive then. He supposedly lived for 502 years after the flood. (Gen 11:10-11)
 
What is the chapter / verse, please ?
Edited above post to include scriptural references.

Oops! Found an error in math. (This calculator has been giving me trouble.) Looks like I skipped a generation in my adding. Abraham left for Canaan after 427 years after the flood. (If the calculator is working correctly, and I didn't skip any generations.)
 
My JPS commentary for Genesis 11.10-32, titled: Ten generations from Shem to Abram:

The text rapidly works its way from Noahide humankind to the particular subject that will dominate the rest of Torah: G-d's dealing with the people Israel, descended from Abram and thus Shem. Compared to the previous genealogical list in ch. 5, which recorded the pre-flood figures, this one displays longevities that are markedly shorter. In fact, they tend to decrease over the generations, and the ages at which these men beget their first-born sons are generally realistic. At least two of the personal names listed here, Serug and Nahor, are known from Mesopotamian literature as place names.

Now I am more curious about the Theosophical chronology.
 
According to Biblical chronology Shem cannot overlap Melchizedek, we can compare total numbers. :)

There is a conflict with the Theosophical chronology.
 
My concern with Theosophy is the implication of the inferiority of any group of people. We don't have to use the word "race" and "racism" to see prejudice against and propositions of inferiority about a particular group of people, which historically is dangerous and is understandably offensive.

Just because a group is purported to be inferior due to culture, history, language, or other ethnic marker, as opposed to biologically (racially), does not make that belief of inferiority any less hurtful, offensive, and potentially dangerous.

So far, Theosophy seems to justify the view of seeing Jews as inferior, even if this is an inferiority related to proposed historical and cultural factors and not due to "race." That doesn't change the view of seeing certain peoples, cultures, or religions as inferior, which Nick himself steadfastly agrees to and sees as a correct view of the alleged history.

In terms of real history, from the anthropological view, there is no evidence of the type of history M. B. proposes, and no evidence that Judaism was a shoot-off from the Aryans in India. Furthermore, the Aryans as they descended into India were conquering farming peoples along the way (as often occurs when a pastoral society meets a farming one) and the amalgam of the farming folks' gods/goddesses and traditions with that of the pastoral Aryans' is what eventually formed Hinduism. This is upheld by linguistic, historical, and archaeological analysis (as well as comparative religious studies).

Quite frankly, the basis of Theosophical thought doesn't jive with anything we have in the known world from any of the sciences or humanities, and so strikes me as fanciful. Unfortunately, it is fanciful in a way that proposes an inferiority of certain people, which to me as an anthropologist is unforgiveable.

As an aside, the most convincing argument I have read for the two accounts of creation in Genesis is also (not surprisingly) the simplest one (thanks Occam's Razor) is one some anthropologists and comparative religion scholars kick around- that the two accounts reflect different influences from two different cultures. As such, they emphasize different things though telling basically the same story. They are not meant to read as one continuous story, but rather as two different myths concerning the same event. The former story emphasizes more equality between men and women, but unfortunately sets humanity farther apart from the rest of creation, encouraging more of a dominion model and making it clear that human beings are super special compared to the rest of creation. The second story emphasizes more of a "stewardship" perspective, leaving the animals and humans as very much alike- Adam is created, then the animals as potential companions for him, and when no suitable companion is found, Eve is created. The downside (from a modern perspective) of this second story is that Eve is not Adam's equal.

Here's one example of such a reading: Literary Genre

There are more.

Of course, there are many other more complex and less culturally grounded ways to read the divergence between Genesis 1 and 2. There is the idea that the first woman was Lilith and for any number of reasons, she was replaced by Eve. The standard Christian reading is that Genesis 2 simply expounds on the specifics of the creation account summarized in Genesis 1 (which I think sweeps notable worldview differences inherent in the two accounts under the rug). Another view is that Genesis 1 was the account of the creation of humanity at large, while Genesis 2 was the account specifically of the origin of the Jewish people (Adam and Eve, who would be the origin of the Jews).

But to use it to suppose the inferiority of any particular group of people seems, in my opinion as a social scientist, dangerous and offensive. Whether one justifies seeing another group of folks as inferior due to race, culture, religion, language, or other attribute doesn't make much difference- it is still prejudice.
 
Path,

Theosophy holds that Semites are spiritually inferior, because of their holding to a religion that is based on (according to Theosophy) a book that was intentionally and blasphemously altered. Theosophy gives Semites the full rights to be considered as much human as anyone else. There is a difference between being spiritually inferior and racially inferior -- Theosophy maintains the first idea and refutes the second idea.

Your insights into the Double Creation Story are worthy of consideration. (It is a fascinating idea that Genesis 1 was the account of the creation of humanity at large, while Genesis 2 was the account specifically of the origin of the Jewish people.) Theosophy, however regards Genesis literally on this point, saying that both Day Six events and Adam and Eve events correctly refer to the entire human race -- just like Genesis says.
 
Theosophy holds that Semites are spiritually inferior, because of their holding to a religion that is based on (according to Theosophy) a book that was intentionally and blasphemously altered. Theosophy gives Semites the full rights to be considered as much human as anyone else. There is a difference between being spiritually inferior and racially inferior -- Theosophy maintains the first idea and refutes the second idea.

My point is that seeing people as inferior on any level is generally offensive and dangerous. It is dangerous because even if Theosophy maintains that everyone should have full rights (despite their inferiority), other groups may take up such teachings and argue that because of their inferiority, these groups should not have full rights. Secondly, it is my belief that giving people full rights is not a substitute for a lack of prejudice. That is, one can be prejudiced (believe some people to be inferior) and not be discriminatory (put this into action). But the belief is still there, it is still damaging to the human psyche and it still limits the spiritual growth of humanity as a whole. In my belief, so long as we have the belief of self vs. other, inferior vs. superior, and the like, we limit our capacity to be at one with each other and with the Divine. When we uphold doctrine that supposes that some peoples are inferior in any way, we reinforce negative traits in humanity's consciousness as a whole, the most salient of which (relative to this issue) is the tendency of human beings to separate themselves from other beings, from each other, and from the Divine. This separation is, I believe, self-induced and artificial, but is a sort of dominant consciousness in humanity that is self-limiting and self-defeating.
 
"...two different myths concerning the same event..."

--> Theosophy rejects this idea, and says both events actually happened, in the same way that Genesis says both events actually happened. Therefore, Ironically, Theosophy gives more creedence to Genesis' accuracy of the telling of this part of the story than the idea of two different myths concerning the same event.
 
"My point is that seeing people as inferior on any level is generally offensive and dangerous."

--> Putting the offensive aspect aside for a moment, is saying that someone's religion is inferior a dangerous thing to do? Is it dangerous to say that the Double Creation Story as portrayed in Genesis just does not make sense?
 
we might as well throw out all abrahamic religions, then, cos all if honest consider the others inferior no? [my biggest bugbear and the cause of much problemos]
 
NA,

It is true that most religions see themselves as superior, although they might not be willing to say it in public. As far as throwing out all abrahamic religions, it would be better to improve them, and show how their original teachings were adulterated in later years. I believe that all religions came from the same source, and differ only because of later adulterations. Let's see if we can find the original core teachings that all religions originate from.

By the way, Theosophy predicts that everyone will become psychic in a few thousand years, and all religious differences will disappear "overnight". Progress is being made.
 
By the way, Theosophy predicts that everyone will become psychic in a few thousand years, and all religious differences will disappear "overnight". Progress is being made.

Can you use it to predict lotto numbers?
 
In terms of real history, from the anthropological view, there is no evidence of the type of history M. B. proposes, and no evidence that Judaism was a shoot-off from the Aryans in India. Furthermore, the Aryans as they descended into India were conquering farming peoples along the way (as often occurs when a pastoral society meets a farming one) and the amalgam of the farming folks' gods/goddesses and traditions with that of the pastoral Aryans' is what eventually formed Hinduism. This is upheld by linguistic, historical, and archaeological analysis (as well as comparative religious studies).

Quite frankly, the basis of Theosophical thought doesn't jive with anything we have in the known world from any of the sciences or humanities, and so strikes me as fanciful. Unfortunately, it is fanciful in a way that proposes an inferiority of certain people, which to me as an anthropologist is unforgiveable.

Poo, is there any anthropological or archeological evidence for the past existence of the 20-60 ft. humans, whom may have built Stonehenge, which is so central to the Theosophical hypothesis ???
 
p_o_o said:
"My point is that seeing people as inferior on any level is generally offensive and dangerous."
...and leads to corruption. However, there is a safety mechanism:
1 Corinthians 1
26 Brothers, consider your calling: not many are wise from a human perspective, [e] not many powerful, (AL) not many of noble birth. 27 Instead, God has chosen (AM) the world's foolish things to shame the wise, and God has chosen the world's weak things to shame the strong. 28 God has chosen the world's insignificant and despised things (AN) —the things viewed as nothing—so He might bring to nothing the things that are viewed as something, 29 so that no one [f] can boast in His presence. (AO)​
 
Poo, is there any anthropological or archeological evidence for the past existence of the 20-60 ft. humans, whom may have built Stonehenge, which is so central to the Theosophical hypothesis ???
There are plenty of 20-60 ft statues built by megalomaniacs...
 
"My point is that seeing people as inferior on any level is generally offensive and dangerous."

--> Putting the offensive aspect aside for a moment, is saying that someone's religion is inferior a dangerous thing to do? Is it dangerous to say that the Double Creation Story as portrayed in Genesis just does not make sense?

There is a difference between disagreeing with (or not believing in) another religion and saying it is inferior.

And there is a difference between not believing in the Jewish religion and saying Jews are spiritually inferior people.

It is not dangerous to say that a particular interpretation of Genesis doesn't make sense to you. It is dangerous to say that a group of people are inferior in some way- prejudice has been historically shown, time and again, to lead to bad outcomes socially (and I think spiritually).

As for a literal reading of Genesis, I just can't go there. Know lots of people that do, mostly fundamentalist Christians. But creation accounts exist all over the world, and their purpose is not (in my opinion, both professionally and personally) not to provide actual histories of the origins of life and whatnot, but rather to provide a template for the culturally and religiously appropriate relationship of people to each other, to the Divine, and to the earth. There are several very different creation accounts, for example, in Hinduism- their purpose is to justify a certain way of relating to each other, not to literally give an account of creation. The way I see it, treating myth as if it is an historical or scientific report cheapens myth, history, and science simultaneously.
 
Well, I think I learned an important Interfaith dialogue lesson on this thread. There are some people in this forum, that when they speak, I am better off not asking them to explain what they mean :(.
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Theosophy holds that Semites are spiritually inferior, because of their holding to a religion that is based on (according to Theosophy) a book that was intentionally and blasphemously altered. Theosophy gives Semites the full rights to be considered as much human as anyone else. There is a difference between being spiritually inferior and racially inferior -- Theosophy maintains the first idea and refutes the second idea.
thank you for the clarity nick. now i am really starting to understand what i detest about theosophy. it is not, as i was concerned, that you lot are a bunch of secret jew-haters, or even that you provide ample material for genuine jew-haters, but actually what i already knew, that you are a bunch of arrogant, verbose, patronising know-nothings. i'm not "racially inferior"? thank you so much. but i am "spiritually inferior"? oh, really? well, pardon me if i fail to do a cartwheel of joy. and what is it that makes me spiritually inferior - my "race"? this is what is truly illogical about it. if someone of non-semitic "race" converts to judaism, do they become spiritually inferior all the same? at what point does this inferiority kick in? bar mitzvah? can i stop being "spiritually inferior" by, say, becoming a theosophist?

i'm sorry (well, i'm not) but i fail to see how this is any different from a christian evangelist telling me i'm going to hell because i don't go for his messiah, or an islamic fundamentalist calling me a kuffar - both have supercessionist theologies, both claim - with absolutely no justification - that their scriptures are better than mine. you don't even have that going on; nobody's ever seen these stanzas of dyzan you go on about, conveniently, they exist in the "ether" and even more conveniently, none of your claims to anything can be verified by any means apart from appealing to auctoritas ad blavatskium. well, i say she was a charlatan and a racist. it doesn't mean you are. it just means you've been conned. and i say that's fair comment. you know feck-all about judaism, you know feck-all about race and you know feck-all about dialogue.

And there is a difference between not believing in the Jewish religion and saying Jews are spiritually inferior people.
yeah. one is perfectly ok and the other is religious prejudice and has no place here. if all you are here for is to talk down to people, you might as well sling your smug little hook.

It is dangerous to say that a group of people are inferior in some way- prejudice has been historically shown, time and again, to lead to bad outcomes socially (and I think spiritually).
i don't understand but can you really not see how thinking people are "spiritually inferior" - especially when you link it to such a discredited C19th notion as "race", inevitably leads to the same position and ultimately outcome?

nativeastral said:
we might as well throw out all abrahamic religions, then, cos all if honest consider the others inferior no? [my biggest bugbear and the cause of much problemos]
your biggest bugbear is mistaken. judaism does not consider non-jews inferior, nor does it consider non-jewish religion inferior, only different. of course we have our chauvinists and that includes some rabbis, but as judaism has no systematic theology there is freedom of opinion on this matter. as long as you keep the seven noahide laws (and there are very few people on the planet who don't) you are as good a person as i am and probably better, because i have another 606 laws that i am supposed to keep on top of that.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
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