Getting rid of pests

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Zenda71!

My grandfather used to surround his new plants with plants that feeders don't like. (For instance, you can plant marigolds around new plants to give them time to establish before the rabbits find them.)

Thank you for the reminder, it has been awhile!

A VERY good book that deals with interplanting is "Carrots Love Tomatoes" (subtitled: "Secrets of Companion Planting for Successful Gardening") by Louise Riotte. Her book mentions only Horehound as a plant grasshoppers do not like, but Horehound is a large plant with a distinct aroma that can be overwhelming, and it is very invasive. However, she suggests, (besides chickens) attracting songbirds, or cats (although I doubt you can successfully do both on a townhouse balcony). She also suggests a spray made of: 2 to 4 hot peppers, one green pepper and one small onion ground together in a quart of water. Let stand for 24 hours and strain. This is also supposed to be good against aphids. (Two birds with one stone?)

Hope this helps Ryukko.

 

[samabudhi]

Crickey! You're really serious!

I thought you were about to drop some deep zen concept on all of us, and here we are, busiest thread in the forum, talking about the details of how we're going to catch and drive grasshoppers to the next field.

Anyway, whatever your choice is, just remember that intention is everything, so if you find yourself cornered and left with nothing else to do but exterminate, then remember that your intention was in the right place. Just think how many butterflies day in spawning season on our roads. The fact that they die by my hand, by another, by their own, makes no difference. It is the intention that I have which results in appropriate karma.

Another important point that is often overlooked is that we're supposed to be compassionate to all sentient beings. There is less sentience in a grasshopper than a human, which correlates to the amount of karma they carry. No sentience, no karma. Viruses are chemicals. They are not sentient and it doesn't matter what we do to them, as long as we view them as what they are, non-sentient. This is why wisdom is always coupled with compassion. If you see viruses as sentient, then destroying them will produce unnecessary karma for yourself.

Good luck.

 

[Ryuuko]

Namaste Samabudhi,

Thank you for your post, and for making me laugh! LOL! Who says I'm not going to drop a deep zen concept? Remember, the greatest lessons are often found in the simplest of things.

"Intention is everything"--that's a key concept. This thread is not necessarily about how to exterminate grasshoppers, but rather, the karmic implications of doing so. I could very well go and buy an insecticide today and wipe out the grasshoppers, but I won't do that. My intention is that they go away and munch on weeds! Why don't they munch on the weeds so I wouldn't have to uproot them?

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Ryuuko,

thank you for the post.

Namaste Vajradhara,

What a wealth of information you are! Anything from Aphids to Zen.

it's not how much you know.. it's knowing where to find the information when requested as it turns out, i just happen to have had some experiences that are similar to yours.

Thank you though for all these suggestions. When I came back from work one night, when I saw the highway of ants on the kitchen counter, I decided to follow their trail, and they happen to have settled inside the patio door somehow--a place I can't reach. I think they came in with a small tree I had put outside for the summer, and to prevent from it freezing, I took it inside for the winter. That's when everything started...

ah, yes.. the dreaded, indoor/outdoor plant. in my experience, this is going to be problematic at best for you and a downright pain in the buttox in most cases. i had a... oh gosh.. what's it called.. a butternut palm, i think, that was an indoor/outdoor plant. the first spring i put it out, it did great! i thought everything was going very well... i brought it in for the winter and, wouldn't you know it.... all the other indoor plants got some type of sickness and all of them died. eh.. i learned my lesson very directly there. don't do the indoor/outdoor plants unless you can keep them contained.

So I guess my only choice is to kill them... but what are the karmic repercussions? In any case, what makes it ok for me to kill the ants but not for you to kill the cicadas?

hmm.. well... this is actually a much deeper question that it may initially appear and that makes me a bit reluctant to venture too far into this question.. however, i'll say this and we can go from there.

to directly answer your query.. nothing. there is nothing that makes it "ok" for you to kill ants and me not kill cicadids, the two acts carry the same karmic consequences in the sense of taking sentient life and as such, each of us will reap the karmic consequences of our actions. what determines those consequences is the intention or motivation behind our action.

let me use a simple analogy to illustrate this point clearly.

a doctor. if you visit the doctor and complain of an illness the doctor will investigate your complaints and compare it to a list of known symtomps and them make a diagnosis to cure the illness. the treatment for the illness may require amputation of the limb. the doctor is acting out of compassionate concern for your wellbeing, thus, the taking of the limb is a karmically positive action. whereas, for instance, if the doctor was not compassionately concerned about your wellbeing and was, instead, removing the limb with the intention that this surgcial technique would create a famous reputation and wealth, this would be an example of a karmically negative action.

in each case the action, removing of the limb, was the same. it is the intentional motivation of the mind that directly creates the karmic repercussions of our actions.

now.. there is a difference between you and i in this relative state. not to put too fine a point on it, however, you're not a Buddhist this does have an effect on the ripening of karma and the generating of it's seeds, however, this is way beyond the scope of our conversation at this time.

They don't seem to be as prolific since I put the ant bait, but I was getting worried for a while about what seemed to be their installation of a traffic light on their "highway". lol!

good! i think you may want to consider the spray as well.

of course.. you can always try to out smart them! here's a neat trick. create a more inviting place for dinner outside you can put some sugar water, like the "honeydew" the aphids make, which will draw them from the house like it's on fire! then, you can lay down the barrier.. and.. if you play your cards right, you should have little problem with ants.

at my current house, there are probably 6 distinct ant colonies living in the surrounding garden and flower beds. proper disposal and clean up after food prep is first and foremost

 

[Ryuuko]

in each case the action, removing of the limb, was the same. it is the intentional motivation of the mind that directly creates the karmic repercussions of our actions.

now.. there is a difference between you and i in this relative state. not to put too fine a point on it, however, you're not a Buddhist this does have an effect on the ripening of karma and the generating of it's seeds, however, this is way beyond the scope of our conversation at this time.

Namaste Vajradhara,

Thank you for your post. If I understand correctly, if my intention for killing the grasshoppers will generate positive karma for me, since I'm acting out of compassion of the plant?

Also, you mentioned that me being a non-Buddhist has an effect on the ripening of Karma. How can that be? Could you explain that?

I'm sorry to hear about your experience with an outdoor/indoor plant. I was especially careful this fall when it came time for me to bring the plant back inside. I had given it a good soap bath, which usually does the trick with pests, but I was obviously unable to catch them all.

at my current house, there are probably 6 distinct ant colonies living in the surrounding garden and flower beds. proper disposal and clean up after food prep is first and foremost

I don't know... that would make me a bit too antsy (pardon the pun) !

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Ryuuko,

thank you for the post.

Namaste Vajradhara,

Thank you for your post. If I understand correctly, if my intention for killing the grasshoppers will generate positive karma for me, since I'm acting out of compassion of the plant?

whilst this seems to be correct, it is not. this is due to my inability to properly explain this concept, not to a lack of your ability to understand.

plants, being non-sentient beings, do not have karma. the karmic seeds from engaging in actions like cutting down a tree, produce neutral karma. of course, the various creatures that live in said tree are another matter altogether

the main thing to keep in mind, at this point, is that it is your intentional acts towards other sentient beings which produce positive or negative karma, though it's possible to produce neutral karma in these cases, this is not something that normal beings are able to do.

Also, you mentioned that me being a non-Buddhist has an effect on the ripening of Karma. How can that be? Could you explain that?

hmm... actually, this is rather particular to my schools view of things. basically, its like someone that is unaware of the rules and breaks them vs. someone that knows the rules and chooses to break them anyway. whilst the rules have been broken in both cases, the person to whom the rules were well known is typically the person that is reprimanded more severly for breeching the rules.

now.. it is true enough that, even without any understanding of the Buddhadharma, from our view at least, these things happen anyway, as such, even as a non-Buddhist one can experience positive or negative karma and these things will influence the beings rebirth.

if i can use another poor analogy. it's rather like this, if i may. a voodoo doll. let's say you are a child and for some reason, you get a voodoo doll. for you, as a child, it's just a dollie and you'll play with it as the situation warrants. you may even make the doll swim or jump over things or lay in a pool of water or light it on fire. all of which are fun things for kids to do and have no bearing on the doll or the kid playing with it.

the same scenario, however, the child knows what a voodoo doll is and believes that by doing those things, i.e. laying it in water, burning it etc. that those things are happening to someone in a physically real way.

the action of burning the doll is the same in both cases. however, the level of understanding of the two children is vastly different and thus, in our Buddhist discussion, those two beings would reap different karma for that same event predicated on their intention behind the act.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience with an outdoor/indoor plant. I was especially careful this fall when it came time for me to bring the plant back inside. I had given it a good soap bath, which usually does the trick with pests, but I was obviously unable to catch them all.

who knew that soap baths would work well? not i.. at least not until the next season it does work very well with diseases though i've not seen as much positive result for dealing with actual crawlies tho.

I don't know... that would make me a bit too antsy (pardon the pun) !

believe me.. this is news as it turns out... Peonies are what are known as "ant flowers". seems that the ants climb into the buds and, as they are trying to get the nectar, cause the bud to open and bloom. i was unaware of this prior to planting a big group of them... you can imagine my surprise when i came out this spring and the entire bed was overrun with ants! i was already trying to figure out what to do about them when my neighbor polietly informed me of the ants.. and that i needed to leave them for the flowers to properly bloom!

as it stands now... there are probably two nests in the Peonie bed.. one in Mollys Garden, one in the Cherry Garden, one in the Russian Sage garden and another one that is either under the driveway or in the timbers that i've used to line the driveway.

now... as it turns out... since all the landscaping has been done.. there are actually quite a few birds and other creatures which are calling the place "home". in particular, there is a hutch of rabbits that lives underneath my neighbors wooden shed. they play havoc on the lillies in the spring time but they are so cute that i'm planting the lillies now just to feed the rabbits! i don't expect any of them to actually bloom again LOL.

 

[Zenda71]

A technique for discouraging ants is to pour boiling hot water over their chemical trail so they can't find their way back to food. Scrubbing the counters with ammonia would work too, although that's a bit more toxic.

We have three or four species of ant in our yard and every year they attempt to move in. We wait until they disappear, then do the boiling water trick, and they move on. OK, to the garbage cans and compost pile, but at least they're not in the house! (The birds and spiders are enough. )

With metta,
Zenda

 

[Ryuuko]

plants, being non-sentient beings, do not have karma. the karmic seeds from engaging in actions like cutting down a tree, produce neutral karma. of course, the various creatures that live in said tree are another matter altogether

the main thing to keep in mind, at this point, is that it is your intentional acts towards other sentient beings which produce positive or negative karma, though it's possible to produce neutral karma in these cases, this is not something that normal beings are able to do.

Namaste Vajradhara,

Thank you for your post. I think it's really great to see all the different experiences we have with nature. I've also had peonies in the past, and yes, they're full of ants, but I didn't know they helped the flowers bloom! We learn something new every day...

The quote above mentions that cutting down a tree produces neutral karma. (I suppose this has to do with Bija Niyama, from what I've been reading on that thread you mentioned earlier today) I don't see how that's possible, since by cutting down the tree you're harming many people including yourself. A person cutting down a tree deprives animals of shelter and oxygen for all of us to breathe. And what about the life force than runs within the tree?

Please bear in mind that this thread began and still is as an exploration of the Buddhist faith. Thank you everyone for your input thus far, and thank you to Brian for having created this website so that we may have the opportunity to learn and grow together as a global family.

 

[iBrian]

Aaah! The ants came in the kitchen in force first thing this morning - found the top of an applie cordial bottle and swarmed all over it, replenishing themselves, until my eldest daughter accidentally knocked the bottle over, and they all went into scurrying frenzy!

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Ryuuko,

thank you for the post.

Namaste Vajradhara,

The quote above mentions that cutting down a tree produces neutral karma. (I suppose this has to do with Bija Niyama, from what I've been reading on that thread you mentioned earlier today) I don't see how that's possible, since by cutting down the tree you're harming many people including yourself. A person cutting down a tree deprives animals of shelter and oxygen for all of us to breathe. And what about the life force than runs within the tree?

whilst it is true that cutting down a tree produces neutral karma, the other animals and creatures that use that tree as a home or for shelter are effected by your actions. thus, the overall effect, in terms of karma, in the cutting down of a tree are far reaching. i would say that, for the majority of beings, this act would produce negative karma as they are not properly motivated by the wellfare of all sentient beings in their actions.

as the Chinese like to say, the "eye" of this work is that intentions towards other sentient beings are what produce karma in the majority of circumstances.

as for the "life force" in the tree or the universe for that matter, this is a different sort of concern and one which i'm probably not able to discourse on to any degree of satisfaction.

now... let's say, for our discussion, that you cut down a tree because the tree is rotten. then, you replant a new tree to take it's place. is the karmic total in the positive or negative? we cannot say since it is not the act of planting or cutting that creates the karma, it is the intention behind the act.

again, not to put too fine a point on it, however, Karma is something that no regular being can fully comprehend as the ramifications are too vast for us to concieve, the full understanding of Karma is known to those beings that awaken fully, for instance, Buddha Shakyamuni.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Vajradhara!

Thank you for your posts!

whilst it is true that cutting down a tree produces neutral karma, the other animals and creatures that use that tree as a home or for shelter are effected by your actions. thus, the overall effect, in terms of karma, in the cutting down of a tree are far reaching. i would say that, for the majority of beings, this act would produce negative karma as they are not properly motivated by the wellfare of all sentient beings in their actions.

I believe I understand what you are saying, but I have a question concerning "sentience." Is not sentience relative, from our perspective?

I seem to recall sentience implying "feeling," "emotion," and/or "thought." Is is not possible that some creatures typically not considered as sentient may actually be, and that we do not understand or comprehend (their "language")?

Even considering the ants, are they not thoughtful? Trying not to anthropomorphize, they do demonstrate a social structure, and cooperation.

Even Broccoli "feels" when it is cut, if I am to believe some of the research I have seen.

And trees communicate when one is attacked by disease, insects or fire.

as the Chinese like to say, the "eye" of this work is that intentions towards other sentient beings are what produce karma in the majority of circumstances.

now... let's say, for our discussion, that you cut down a tree because the tree is rotten. then, you replant a new tree to take it's place. is the karmic total in the positive or negative? we cannot say since it is not the act of planting or cutting that creates the karma, it is the intention behind the act.

Yes, I can see this, even including the doctor analogy earlier. Pruning a tree of dead or diseased wood, for example, in order to heal the tree.

I am not sure I see cutting down a healthy tree as neutral. I understand the animal's home and oxygen production part, that is not what I am speaking of. I see a kind of sentience in trees, we just don't (typically) understand their language.

Sometimes trees must be thinned, for fire protection or whatever, which would satisfy intent. But there is a majesty of spirit that is awesome in an old growth tree, such as the Sequoias, or the Bristlecones.

again, not to put too fine a point on it, however, Karma is something that no regular being can fully comprehend as the ramifications are too vast for us to concieve, the full understanding of Karma is known to those beings that awaken fully, for instance, Buddha Shakyamuni.

I can accept this, and this is why I ask.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste juan,

thank you for the post.

i trust you are doing well?

Kindest Regards, Vajradhara!

Thank you for your posts!

I believe I understand what you are saying, but I have a question concerning "sentience." Is not sentience relative, from our perspective?

we live in a relative universe, preforce, it's all relative

now, that being said, it's rather a difficult thing to absolutely define what sentience is. generally speaking, i define the term to mean "beings with the ability to sense their environment and react to those sensations".

I seem to recall sentience implying "feeling," "emotion," and/or "thought." Is is not possible that some creatures typically not considered as sentient may actually be, and that we do not understand or comprehend (their "language")?

Even considering the ants, are they not thoughtful? Trying not to anthropomorphize, they do demonstrate a social structure, and cooperation.

Even Broccoli "feels" when it is cut, if I am to believe some of the research I have seen.

fortunately, from our point of view, sentience completely includes ants it's not so much that they "think" or "feel" rather, that they sense their surroundings and react to them.

oh i'm with you on the Broccoli.. it was pretty hard to conceive when i first read about it.

And trees communicate when one is attacked by disease, insects or fire.

this is quite true, however, the method of communication that takes place is not due to sentience.. i.e. the trees are not sensing their surroundings and then communicating, the tree must first experience the attack and then communicate it's message to the rest of the forest.

now... having said that... it's quite possible that there is an intelligence or sentience, if you will, at work that we are unaware of in this context. i'm unclear on the ramifications of such a proposition though.

Sometimes trees must be thinned, for fire protection or whatever, which would satisfy intent. But there is a majesty of spirit that is awesome in an old growth tree, such as the Sequoias, or the Bristlecones.

I can accept this, and this is why I ask.

oh no doubt about it. ancient living things are awesome... the Buddhist view of the environment as a whole is, if i may, a more holistic view of the situation, especially if one happens to have a Chinese world view, than one normally finds in the West.

let me give you an example from a well known movie, 7 Years in Tibet.

a cinema was being constructed for HH the Dalai Lama by the german. as the builders were preparing the ground for the foundation, a group of monks would sort the dirt and remove all the worms prior to any building so that they would not be harmed.

the technical term for this "not harming life" is called Ahisma in Sanskrit and literally means "non-violence" and it is applied to all forms of life.

ohh... i hear the pot boiling so i've got to run... more later...

 

[Karehndiujo Mohmid]

Namaste everyone,

Here's a simple question, but perhaps a simple answer does not accompany it. I have a bunch of grasshoppers in my garden that have decided to destroy the plants and have a buffet. Since I know that buddhism honors all life, what do I do with those nasty grasshoppers that are taking over my garden?

Namaste.

Try a natural remedy such as tobacco, dish soap (with phosphorus, if available) and water.

If this doesn't work, you might try providing a small habitat for snakes but -- this can be dangerous.

 

[Ryuuko]

Namaste Karehndiujo Mohmid,

Thank you for your suggestions! I'm amazed as to how many remedies we have to get rid of pests naturally. I live in Canada, so the snakes would freeze, but I've installed two bird feeders near the garden, so hopefully they'll get the idea and start munching on the grasshoppers.

 

[Ryuuko]

Namaste Juantoo,

You've summed up pretty much what I was thinking about cutting down healthy trees. Just to add to your post, there's a book called "The Secret Life of Plants", which gives detailed scientific information about what you were talking about. It's worth a read.

 

[Karehndiujo Mohmid]

Namaste Karehndiujo Mohmid,

Thank you for your suggestions! I'm amazed as to how many remedies we have to get rid of pests naturally. I live in Canada, so the snakes would freeze, but I've installed two bird feeders near the garden, so hopefully they'll get the idea and start munching on the grasshoppers.

Very welcome and thank you, as well. (I will be sure to add your book to my collection, when money affords.)

And, once more, on the subject of pest control, there are many many snakes where I live. Big ones, with sharp poisonous fangs and rattles on their tails. In the winter, they simply hibernate underground until the snow melts.

Frogs also eat grasshoppers. An indigenous species is always preferable, of course.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Karehndiujo Mohmid!

Try a natural remedy such as tobacco, dish soap (with phosphorus, if available) and water.

Yes, this is a good recipe, with one caveat. Do not use tobacco or tobacco products anywhere near members of the nightshade family, which includes tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant and sweet peppers. If you do smoke, wash your hands well before dealing with these plants. Do not use tobacco ash as fertilizer on these crops.

The reason is tobacco mosaic virus, very difficult to control and (in my experience) impossible to eradicate once established. Perhaps off topic, but important if one chooses to use tobacco as a bug deterrent.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Ryuuko!

You've summed up pretty much what I was thinking about cutting down healthy trees. Just to add to your post, there's a book called "The Secret Life of Plants", which gives detailed scientific information about what you were talking about. It's worth a read.

Thank you for the tip about the book, I will look for it.
Otherwise, glad to help. I have long had a soft spot in my heart for the giant trees. Even a three hundred year old oak sparks the same thing in my spirit.

 

[iBrian]

Namaste everyone,

Here's a simple question, but perhaps a simple answer does not accompany it. I have a bunch of grasshoppers in my garden that have decided to destroy the plants and have a buffet. Since I know that buddhism honors all life, what do I do with those nasty grasshoppers that are taking over my garden?

Ah, I somehow missed this first post!

Although too late on this occasion, it might be worth investing in a small pond, safe for children, but great for frogs and other amphibians to thrive in. That way, should you find yourself facing the grasshoppers again in a couple of years time, you should hopefully have an army of hungry frogs to help recycle them into plant food.

 

[Zenda71]

Karma is such a tangled web! Even cutting down a "dead" or diseased tree still effects sentient beings, such as bugs that nest in it, birds that perch on it, rabbits that warren under it. And let's not forget the cicadas sucking on its roots to reawaken in 17 years ... It makes me reconsider the wisdom of acting on the environment in any way ...

With metta,
Zenda