Abortion

[wil]

The abortion discussion is hot and heavy in the national health care debates.

Interesting quotes I heard,

If a man has the right to bear arms, a woman has the right to bear or not bear a child.

We have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.....right to life.

The debate/discussion is one of the most divisive known to man.

But as we are a country of laws, so it is by the laws that we will determine solution.

Currently the law of the land is abortion is legal, and not murder, by law.

 

[Quahom1]

Seems like fathers have been teaching sons for centuries to no avail.

Teach them this: you make a baby, and you either marry the girl and raise that baby or else 25% of everything you earn is automatically deducted from your paycheck... no ifs ands or buts.

That'll give the guy a little something more to think about. I'd say it's about time time to hold ourselves accountable for our horny ways.

Seems like fathers have been doing just fine until the last 40 years CZ. Wonder why that is?

 

[Quahom1]

The abortion discussion is hot and heavy in the national health care debates.

Interesting quotes I heard,

If a man has the right to bear arms, a woman has the right to bear or not bear a child.

We have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.....right to life.

The debate/discussion is one of the most divisive known to man.

But as we are a country of laws, so it is by the laws that we will determine solution.

Currently the law of the land is abortion is legal, and not murder, by law.

Keep your legs crossed, and there is no issue to contend with, would you not agree?

Open them, and one opens themself to a potential whole lot of responsibility...

 

[wil]

Keep your legs crossed, and there is no issue to contend with, would you not agree?

Actually, no. I haven't had this issue. But others have and make it my issue. Just as here, some get incensed about what others are doing.

Of course we've been promoting abstinence as the only way to teach sex education for our Bush/Cheney years...teen pregnancy is up. My kids are now 16 and going into 11th grade. Since they've had health/sex ed classes in public school, no forms of contraception are taught, only abstinence, save yourself for marriage promises, crossing your legs etc.

Unfortunately hormones being what they are...that doesn't work, and fortunately with the pill, the three month pill, the implant, viagra, condoms being advertised on television this leaves me plenty of opportunity to segue into discussions

 

[GlorytoGod]

i am against the murder of unborn babies

when I was in my teens abortion never really bothered me, but later on in life i think its really ****ing horrible

 

[iBrian]

I'd say it's about time time to hold ourselves accountable for our horny ways.

Quite agree - I would suggest a fundamental problem with modern Western societies is its inability to recognise relationships in the absence of a marriage certificate.

Ancient societies didn't need a written statement to recognise a couple - living together was often enough in Roman times to automatically provide rights of ownership to both people.

Modern society can't do that, though, which leads to a range of injustices IMO. You shouldn't need to sign a piece of paper just to be held accountable for your responsibilities as a human being, and have these recognised by society.

Just my 2c.

 

[seattlegal]

Seems like fathers have been teaching sons for centuries to no avail.

Teach them this: you make a baby, and you either marry the girl and raise that baby or else 25% of everything you earn is automatically deducted from your paycheck... no ifs ands or buts.

That'll give the guy a little something more to think about. I'd say it's about time time to hold ourselves accountable for our horny ways.

Keep your legs crossed, and there is no issue to contend with, would you not agree?

Open them, and one opens themself to a potential whole lot of responsibility...

That's it! It's all about sex!





[sarcasm]

• Woman goes to drugstore to buy emergency contraception: Baaaad! Sex was involved! A blastocyte might have been created which might be discouraged from implanting in the uterus, causing a pregnancy.
• Couple goes to fertility clinic, creates several confirmed blastocytes, and attempts to implant several, because they might not take, then later injects any "excessive" embryoes that implant with liquid nitrogen. The unused blastocytes are then either frozen or discarded. They are not forced to implant any unused blastocytes they deliberately created. Gooood! No sex was involved! Carry on. You may make your own decisions, as long as it doesn't involve sex.
• Pregnant woman finds out her third trimester fetus has hydrocephaly. There is no way the child will survive childbirth, and the woman will also probably die in childbirth, because the baby's head will be just way too big for regular childbirth, or even for a C-section when it reaches full term: Baaaad! Sex was involved! She must die! Furthermore, any doctor who tries to save her life by performing a third trimester abortion must also die!!

Hmm, it seems like there is more to this than just sex: how about control?
<vaudville style green talking to purple>
Hey, here we have a pregnant woman in jail! We have total control over her!
Excellent! She's both a criminal AND she's obviously also had sex. Let's punish her real good.
No pain relief when she goes into labor!
She must also be shackled while she is in labor!
Nice touch. What's torture without the shackles!
**whispers** Wait, won't that increase the chances she'll sustain permanent damage?
She should have thought about that before she had sex.
But if she comes out with permanent damage, and we were in total control of her, won't that make us to blame for permanent injury?
**whispers**Naw. Women face death and injury whenever they go through childbirth. Nothing will stick to us if she's injured. Besides, she deserves it. She not only had sex, but she also committed a crime. A permanent injury might prevent her from committing more crimes or having sex again.
That's right! Doesn't it feel good to do the right thing?
Just being able to spread what we know is the best thing feels quite satisfying.
Amen to that!

</vaudville style>
[/sarcasm]

 

[citizenzen]

That's it! It's all about sex!

I got it! Mandatory sterilization of all human beings, from birth until they are married. Then we can turn the spigots back on. If they get divorced, then it's a trip back to the doctor to get "turned off" again.

There! No more abortions!

We would of course have to sterilize any unmarried people coming into the country as well. That might ease the immigration problem.

Two-for-one. Sweet!

 

[seattlegal]

I got it! Mandatory sterilization of all human beings, from birth until they are married. Then we can turn the spigots back on. If they get divorced, then it's a trip back to the doctor to get "turned off" again.

There! No more abortions!

We would of course have to sterilize any unmarried people coming into the country as well. That might ease the immigration problem.

Two-for-one. Sweet!

But CZ, that won't stop them from having sex! If anything, it'll encourage out-of-wedlock sex! Best keep it how things are now: if a woman under 30 asks to have her tubes tied, tell her this: "No, you're too young. You might meet a man in the future who wants to have children. You wouldn't want to lose him over that?"

See, if you deny a young women any choice in the matter, and heap scorn on her if she tries to work around these controls, then she'll be less likely to have sex, for fear of getting pregnant, because she has expressed the wish to not have any children! If she gets pregnant, then she can either get married and her husband will control her, or she will get an illegal abortion and die from the complications! These non-compliant females will be done away with under this plan! {That's the beauty of it. } (If you make compliance to these guidelines only voluntary, then only the non-compliant people will breed, resulting in a genetically non-compliant population, and we will lose control! )

 

[immortalitylost]

Well, in the absence of rape or a chance that the woman will die in childbirth, I see abortion as less of a "womans choice issue" and more like a way to cover your a*ss if you decide not to use a contraceptive because it was just too inconvenient.

Woman say that it's "their body" and their choice. But what does that mean? That they're so concerned about their self image that they won't accept the consequences of their own actions and go through nine months of labor and maybe *gasp* stretch marks to give birth to and give away a child that they didn't want in the first place?

Woman are not without blame in the matter. And it isn't about only sex. It's about taking responsibility for your actions. That's what grown ups do. Sex is an action that can lead to pregnancy. And if you're a teenager and you think your old enough to have sex, but are too irresponsible to use protection. Well then I think taking responsability for your actions is a lesson that you need.

Guys aren't without blame in the matter by any means. But woman need to accept responsibility as well. They aren't powerless in the decision. And if they are, well that's another story all together.

 

[seattlegal]

Well, in the absence of rape or a chance that the woman will die in childbirth, I see abortion as less of a "womans choice issue" and more like a way to cover your a*ss if you decide not to use a contraceptive because it was just too inconvenient.

Woman say that it's "their body" and their choice. But what does that mean? That they're so concerned about their self image that they won't accept the consequences of their own actions and go through nine months of labor and maybe *gasp* stretch marks to give birth to and give away a child that they didn't want in the first place?

Woman are not without blame in the matter. And it isn't about only sex. It's about taking responsibility for your actions. That's what grown ups do. Sex is an action that can lead to pregnancy. And if you're a teenager and you think your old enough to have sex, but are too irresponsible to use protection. Well then I think taking responsability for your actions is a lesson that you need.

Guys aren't without blame in the matter by any means. But woman need to accept responsibility as well. They aren't powerless in the decision. And if they are, well that's another story all together.

Um, Mort, how is your post not about sex? Everything in your post was related to sex.

 

[wil]

I think if men had babies and still had control of the world (religions, gov't, corporations etc.) as they do now, this would not even be a question hardly...abortion would be legal, free and paid for by the gov't and/or the corp.

Tis the fact that we can be sanctimonious in the whole thing...when we were as much at fault as any. How many men when trying to explain to their wives why/how it was they had an affair....er...uh...I don't know it just happenned.

Our hormones must really take off in this whole thing... Yes dear we were working together and the next thing I knew, I was naked and had paid for a hotel....yeah right.

The other thing that comes up...is with age we are more anti-choice and in youth we are more pro-choice... could that be not just because we are wiser but actually because it no longer affects us?

 

[seattlegal]

Well, in the absence of rape or a chance that the woman will die in childbirth, I see abortion as less of a "womans choice issue" and more like a way to cover your a*ss if you decide not to use a contraceptive because it was just too inconvenient.

Every time a woman gives birth, her life is at risk.

Woman say that it's "their body" and their choice. But what does that mean? That they're so concerned about their self image that they won't accept the consequences of their own actions and go through nine months of labor and maybe *gasp* stretch marks to give birth to and give away a child that they didn't want in the first place?

How many abortions have you or those close to you had, and what percentage of these abortions gave the reason, "I don't want to have any stretch marks?"

Woman are not without blame in the matter. And it isn't about only sex. It's about taking responsibility for your actions. That's what grown ups do. Sex is an action that can lead to pregnancy. And if you're a teenager and you think your old enough to have sex, but are too irresponsible to use protection. Well then I think taking responsability for your actions is a lesson that you need.

Again, you say it isn't only about sex, but what here isn't about sex?

Guys aren't without blame in the matter by any means. But woman need to accept responsibility as well. They aren't powerless in the decision. And if they are, well that's another story all together.

Who is blaming guys? Maybe they can be blamed if they force or pressure a woman into an abortion, just as you suggested that some might force or pressure a woman into sex. I agree, women are not powerless in the decision, unless that power is wrenched away.

 

[seattlegal]

I think if men had babies and still had control of the world (religions, gov't, corporations etc.) as they do now, this would not even be a question hardly...abortion would be legal, free and paid for by the gov't and/or the corp.

I'm glad you said it!

The other thing that comes up...is with age we are more anti-choice and in youth we are more pro-choice... could that be not just because we are wiser but actually because it no longer affects us?

Ya think?

 

[Amica]

Hi Steadfast199--

Morally ill? I believe yes. Mentally ill? I believe no because when a person is mentally ill he/she is not able to reason and has difficulties distinguishing reality. Person choosing abortion is able to function in the society and her commiting aborition is not preventing her from living an independent life. To call her mentally ill is to give her an excuse for the irrisponsible sin she has committed.

There are many women who are pro-life and I am one of them. I am almost 30 years old and have never had abortion nor would I ever consider one. I think it is about being morally responsible. If one wants to have sex (male or female) then he/she must be able to consider that which may result in the process: (un)wanted pregnancy.

 

[wil]

I'm not saying you can't be young and female and be pro-life...I'm just saying you are in the minority.

 

[Francis king]

Personally, I think we should abort more children than we do. The world is over-populated, and I propose we get rid of all those who:

a) have limited intelligence
b) are poor
c) are more than averagely ugly

Imagine what a lovely world we would have then... no thick, ugly thugs cluttering up the streets! All would be fragrant, artistic, beautiful and useful!

Imagine a world were morality like our OP'ers was enforced by Law! Woo! Millions of ugly, poor, thick babies draining the life from the State...

no! I protest!

Better it is for a human not to be born if all he will experience is misery, and poverty, tortured psychologically by a parent that just doesn't want it, undernourished and undervalued...

as for his rights... the poor underfed underclass have no rights- rights are a myth, something Liberals cherish, like Teddy Bears from childhood... all warm, and cuddly, and familiar, yet so, so childish...

I know- all those irresponsible ppl who have children they dont want should be forced to keep them- that'll teach them...

hohoho... that will really benefit wider society, wont it?

abortion might be distasteful, but it is a neccesary evil...

now you can buy abortifacients from the High Street Chemist- you don't even need a prescription!

now you can kill babies in secret!!

now you don't have suffer the indignity of being in a horrible predicament and being judged by pro-life medical workers and the ignorant who believe their opinion matters more than your own!!

Thanks, Science!

 

[immortalitylost]

Every time a woman gives birth, her life is at risk.

How many abortions have you or those close to you had, and what percentage of these abortions gave the reason, "I don't want to have any stretch marks?"

Again, you say it isn't only about sex, but what here isn't about sex?

Who is blaming guys? Maybe they can be blamed if they force or pressure a woman into an abortion, just as you suggested that some might force or pressure a woman into sex. I agree, women are not powerless in the decision, unless that power is wrenched away.

Ok to answer the questions that I knew there inevitably would be. I am not, um, good at putting my thoughts into words...

With the medical conditions being what they are today, I'd say there is a risk with pregnancy, but I think it's a bit extreme saying that all women that give birth are at risk of dying. I mean, it happens, but it is not by any means the norm or the majority of cases that end up with the woman in serious trouble. I mean, sure things can go wrong, but isn't it a bit of an exception to the rule when things go wrong? Like life threateningly wrong? A woman can't just use that to justify not giving birth. It sounds kind of like a cop out.

The stretch marks thing was a bit of an exaggeration. But it happens. Women have gotten abortions because they didn't want to "loose their figure" or something. I don't by any means mean that all woman who have abortions think this way but I think your kidding yourself if you think that it's a big deal and is reflected long hours upon and struggled with by every woman. We can hope that most would do this, but some people just don't care. They care more about looking good, and they don't want that to change. Others just don't want a kid.
If I were to become pregnant, I would never even consider abortion. I couldn't. If I could not take care of the resulting child, I would give it to someone that could. And I think that if someone close to me got an abortion because they didn't want to lose their figure or get stretch marks or something, well I don't know what I'd do. That's just terrible. But it happens. That's why it's even more terrible.

All I'm trying to say is that if a woman doesn't want to have a baby she should take every measure that she can to make sure that she doesn't get pregnant. If she just doesn't feel like doing that and gets pregnant, she should have to live with the consequences. She shouldn't just get a "get out of being pregnant" pass if she wants to be irresponsible. She should have to live with the consequences of that bad decision.

If you steal a car right in front of a cop, you get arrested. That is the consequence of that action. If you get pregnant because you had sex without using a contraceptive when you didn't want the baby that might come from that act, you should have to deal with being pregnant. Would it be fair for the cop to just give the car thief a get out of jail free card. Not only that, but lets say he just give the car thief a get out of jail free card and kills the owner of the car. That's about the same as an abortion...

It lets a woman off for a mistake that she has made by killing someone.

And I don't buy that crap about a baby not "really" being a person until it's born, or a certain time after conception. You are stopping a life that could be. That's murder. I couldn't really condemn someone who did it. But I can still think it's wrong.

Now, I said that it wasn't only about sex. It's bad when unused, unwanted, or excess embryos are killed at fertility clinics. That is sad, but it's not necissarily irresponsible. It's sometimes a necessary evil and results in a birth that would not be possible otherwise.

But it's worse if the woman knew she didn't want a baby, knew she should use a contraceptive, but just didn't. And then when she gets pregnant because she just didn't bother to prevent it, she has the option of just killing the kid. I say too bad. I say it's too late to say you don't want a kid. If you really didn't want one, you would have used a contraceptive.

Abortion for everyone who just messes up, or doesn't think, or worse yet, is just too lazy to make sure they don't get pregnant, I believe it trivializes the importance of human life.

Now, if a woman takes every care not to get pregnant and it happens anyway. An abortion, though sad, would at least be warranted. The same with rape victims, or babies that are the product of incest. It would be warranted.

I just don't think it should be taken lightly, or given as a get out of responsibility card to someone who made the wrong choice. Why can't these women have the baby and give it to someone who may desperately want a child but for whatever reason can't have one? Why should bad decision making be rewarded by murdering a baby so the maker of the bad decision doesn't have to go through all that trouble?

I just find that repulsive, like wrong on a very deep level. And I'm a young person, and a girl, so it's not because I don't have to worry about it anymore.

I was just saying that Guys shouldn't get all the blame because of the conversation about taking 25% of a guys salary for every kid he fosters out of wedlock. I mean, ultimately, it's the girls responsibility, because it is her body, and it is her that will carry the child. And guys always get the blame in these situations, so I think it's high time for girls to share some of it. And if the guy doesn't get no, or doesn't want to wear a condom, or whatever, and forces the girl. Well that's rape. And that's completely the guy's bad. So abortion would be warranted, but still sad.

Now does what I said make sense? I can never tell...

 

[immortalitylost]

Oh, Francis, poor poor Francis... It's not the truly poor underfed class that is running about getting abortions. Those are the countries and areas that are most overpopulated. The truly poor countries.

It's us rich westerners that are lining up in droves to kill their unborn. We in the west are either as nations staying about the same population wise, or declining.

It's always the people who can least afford children that are having too many. That's how the world works. That's how it always has...

Abortion is a (comparatively) rich people's pastime. And that's the sad truth.

And children who have little sometimes grow up to be much better more productive people than others who grow up in the lap of luxury. That's the thing with people. You just never know.

That's why we shouldn't kill them without even getting the chance to meet them. Abortion to me is much worse than murder. It's killing babies that haven't even had the chance to breathe yet. Some of them, haven't even had the chance to have a heartbeat. They don't get the chance... that's what makes abortion so sad in my mind.

 

[seattlegal]

Ok to answer the questions that I knew there inevitably would be. I am not, um, good at putting my thoughts into words...

With the medical conditions being what they are today, I'd say there is a risk with pregnancy, but I think it's a bit extreme saying that all women that give birth are at risk of dying. I mean, it happens, but it is not by any means the norm or the majority of cases that end up with the woman in serious trouble. I mean, sure things can go wrong, but isn't it a bit of an exception to the rule when things go wrong? Like life threateningly wrong? A woman can't just use that to justify not giving birth. It sounds kind of like a cop out.

I dunno. I've been there myself. I know the odds of the baby not surviving the birth is greater than the mother not surviving birth, and know several women whose otherwise healthy babies have died due to a refusal on the part of medical caregivers to take even the simplest of preventative measures.

The stretch marks thing was a bit of an exaggeration. But it happens. Women have gotten abortions because they didn't want to "loose their figure" or something. I don't by any means mean that all woman who have abortions think this way but I think your kidding yourself if you think that it's a big deal and is reflected long hours upon and struggled with by every woman. We can hope that most would do this, but some people just don't care. They care more about looking good, and they don't want that to change. Others just don't want a kid.

How many do you know who have given this reason for an abortion? I don't know any. Are you sure that this reason for having an abortion is really all that widespread?

If I were to become pregnant, I would never even consider abortion. I couldn't. If I could not take care of the resulting child, I would give it to someone that could. And I think that if someone close to me got an abortion because they didn't want to lose their figure or get stretch marks or something, well I don't know what I'd do. That's just terrible. But it happens. That's why it's even more terrible.

Don't get me wrong--I am pro-life wherever possible. However, I am also pro-choice, in that I cannot possibly know all of the details behind all of the situations in which women seek an abortion. Some reasons are valid, and carefully considered. I would not deny these women their choice in this matter.

All I'm trying to say is that if a woman doesn't want to have a baby she should take every measure that she can to make sure that she doesn't get pregnant.

I went through the effectiveness statistics for the different types of contraception, and figured out what the chances of a woman getting pregnant over the course of her lifetime if she used the contraception every time. I also took into account that hormonal birth control is not feasible over a woman's full reproductive lifetime. My guestimates were eye-opening--about 70% of women who have sex and use contraception correctly every time can expect to have at least one unplanned pregnancy during her lifetime. I suspect that the actual number of fertile women who have sex experience an unplanned pregnancy during their lifetime might actually be higher. (20% of couples will experience fertility problems.) I haven't compared my guestimates to the guestimates of other people who are probably better statisticians than me.

If she just doesn't feel like doing that and gets pregnant, she should have to live with the consequences. She shouldn't just get a "get out of being pregnant" pass if she wants to be irresponsible. She should have to live with the consequences of that bad decision.

So you see being forced to carry an unplanned pregnancy to be a punitive measure? Do you think that is a healthy way to view pregnancy and childbirth?

If you steal a car right in front of a cop, you get arrested. That is the consequence of that action. If you get pregnant because you had sex without using a contraceptive when you didn't want the baby that might come from that act, you should have to deal with being pregnant. Would it be fair for the cop to just give the car thief a get out of jail free card. Not only that, but lets say he just give the car thief a get out of jail free card and kills the owner of the car. That's about the same as an abortion...

It lets a woman off for a mistake that she has made by killing someone.

I certainly sounds like you view such pregnancies as punitive measures. Are you sure this is the most healthy was to view pregnancy and childbirth?

And I don't buy that crap about a baby not "really" being a person until it's born, or a certain time after conception. You are stopping a life that could be. That's murder. I couldn't really condemn someone who did it. But I can still think it's wrong.

That's a valid argument.

Now, I said that it wasn't only about sex. It's bad when unused, unwanted, or excess embryos are killed at fertility clinics. That is sad, but it's not necissarily irresponsible. It's sometimes a necessary evil and results in a birth that would not be possible otherwise.

Ahh, murdering your baby (your own term) is acceptable as long as you're "responsible" about it? Even if you deliberately created the baby? I see.

But it's worse if the woman knew she didn't want a baby, knew she should use a contraceptive, but just didn't. And then when she gets pregnant because she just didn't bother to prevent it, she has the option of just killing the kid. I say too bad. I say it's too late to say you don't want a kid. If you really didn't want one, you would have used a contraceptive.

Consider the contraceptive failure rate over a lifetime, and you might want to rethink your reasoning.

Abortion for everyone who just messes up, or doesn't think, or worse yet, is just too lazy to make sure they don't get pregnant, I believe it trivializes the importance of human life.

Hey, we agree about something--the trivialization of human life leads to bad results. I think everyone, men and women, should be educated regarding fetal development and the wondrousness of it.

Now, if a woman takes every care not to get pregnant and it happens anyway. An abortion, though sad, would at least be warranted. The same with rape victims, or babies that are the product of incest. It would be warranted.

I just don't think it should be taken lightly, or given as a get out of responsibility card to someone who made the wrong choice.

I agree, abortion is not something that should be taken lightly. It requires serious consideration.

Why can't these women have the baby and give it to someone who may desperately want a child but for whatever reason can't have one? Why should bad decision making be rewarded by murdering a baby so the maker of the bad decision doesn't have to go through all that trouble?

I wouldn't say that going through an abortion is not troublesome.
I think that forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term is quite troublesome. You can try to persuade a woman to not have an abortion, but I think forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term against her will is immoral.

I just find that repulsive, like wrong on a very deep level. And I'm a young person, and a girl, so it's not because I don't have to worry about it anymore.

You have a conscience. That is a good thing, imo.

I was just saying that Guys shouldn't get all the blame because of the conversation about taking 25% of a guys salary for every kid he fosters out of wedlock. I mean, ultimately, it's the girls responsibility, because it is her body, and it is her that will carry the child. And guys always get the blame in these situations, so I think it's high time for girls to share some of it. And if the guy doesn't get no, or doesn't want to wear a condom, or whatever, and forces the girl. Well that's rape. And that's completely the guy's bad. So abortion would be warranted, but still sad.

I think punitive measures should be a last resort, because coercion is less effective than persuasion in getting people to make the heartfelt changes everyone is looking for.

Now does what I said make sense? I can never tell...

You make your case fairly well. However, imo, there are other points you might wish to consider in integrating your final opinion.