Abortion

[citizenzen]

Cz: didn't you mean that murdering fetus's is the same as murdering death row inmates and soldiers? Like they are all equally bad? It really didn't seem to me like you were condoning any of those things, just pointing out that murder is murder in all forms and equally bad because everyone has potential not just fetuses. Am I on base?

You're at least in the ball park. But I'm not trying to say that anything is equally "good" or "bad".

I'm merely pointing out that potential is not enough of a consideration to spare the life of a fetus when it is not justification enough to spare the lives of other human beings.

Thanks for trying to play peacemaker. But don't worry about it too much. It's just a silly little forum. Now... where can I get my certificate for having posted the RUDEST thing ever? My moms will be so proud.

 

[Quahom1]

First I have to figure out your post.

Maybe you shouldn't type when you're angry... it muddles up your syntax.

Maybe you are correct. Maybe I should leave well enough alone. Maybe you can...

 

[greymare]

Murder does not have any place in this debate. Why is it that an infant should not be killed? Because of its potential. We're in the Christian thread. Contraception, abstinance, non-marriage, and abortion all are rejecting unwanted pregnancies and all nearly equivalent. These are considered against the commandment to 'Fill and subdue the earth', but they are not murder. An infant is valuable, yet it is not in the image of God yet until it has grown. Murder, by definition, is wrong because 'In the image of God made he man'. Murder does not enter the discussion. Secondly, some people zealously say that abortion is offering children to the god 'Molech'. That is also incorrect. The absolute prohibition of abortion seems a slavish adherence to rules, not a valuing of life and of God's image.

Quality of life for children is very important, as this important for teaching children how to live. It is about creating the image of God in them. Not rearing your kids is a tragedy as if you had died and left them as orphans. Even though your kids are alive, you are not really 'Filling and subduing the earth'. If you work 18 hours a day and have children, it is a tragedy. If you have 50 kids, it is a tragedy. They cannot rear themselves.

Dream, I dont understand that a infant is not the image of God until it has grown. (define grown). I have never heard of this god molech? Do you mean that if a child isnt "perfect" ie disabled that they arent made in the image of God? That they arent as valuable? I may have the wrong end of the stick, i dont know, Im just trying to get a little clarification Please.

I do agree that working long hours and not spending time with your kids is bad, but unfortunately it happens. Thankfully, thats where close family etc hopefully can pick up the slack.

 

[immortalitylost]

Does this work for ya Cz?



I'm terrible. Couldn't help mehself...

 

[Tao_Equus]

Is this an annual prize?
I must try harder!!

 

[Tao_Equus]

Abortions are a part of gods plan! Since he is all powerful and the source of all creation he could have made it impossible to abort. Since he did not, (he's like abortion less than she's so he must be a he), then they have to be part of his plan. Abort for Jesus!!

 

[greymare]

Extremely poor taste, tao.

 

[nativeastral]

Extremely poor taste, tao.

obviously scratching for a deuchbagery certificate!!

 

[Tao_Equus]

Extremely poor taste, tao.

Is it? Abortion is a fact of life. It has been a part of life for a long long time. There are lots of good reasons for a woman to reach such an unfortunate choice. There is too much church moralising on an issue that has sod all to do with them. Would you like to go to the old catholic alternative and throw girls raped by priests into catholic run workhouses where the children were removed to feed the orphanage, which of course was church run and the reservoir of further abuse victims?
Edit link inserted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Asylum

 

[immortalitylost]

Well obviously part of his plan. I mean from the standpoint that he is omniscient and all of that. It's just not a part that I'm particularly fond of. And the fact that I don't like abortion is also part of his plan. So there. *sticks out tongue at da meanie*

Do ya have to try for the title by ruding me? My ego bruises easily! *rubs ego owie*

Pick on Cz, he's the reining champ after all, apparently! Not da poor defenseless kitty!

*gives you kitty eyezes*

You must obey da will of da kitty... give in to da cutieness...

 

[Tao_Equus]

obviously scratching for a deuchbagery certificate!!

I tried to avoid coming in on this one.... but the threads are slow...

 

[immortalitylost]

Is it? Abortion is a fact of life. It has been a part of life for a long long time. There are lots of good reasons for a woman to reach such an unfortunate choice. There is too much church moralising on an issue that has sod all to do with them. Would you like to go to the old catholic alternative and throw girls raped by priests into catholic run workhouses where the children were removed to feed the orphanage, which of course was church run and the reservoir of further abuse victims?

Wow. You got a real rosy outlook on life, yano...

I agree though, it isn't really an issue for the church any more than it is for the government. It's between a woman and her conscience, and whatever happens will.

I just don't have to like it. And since I can't help formulating an opinion on the matter, I posted it in this thread. Good a place for it as any.

Has anyone noticed the word conscience? Con-science? That has to mean something... and whatever it means, I'm not gettin involved. Merely a curious bystander!

 

[greymare]

Is it? Abortion is a fact of life. It has been a part of life for a long long time. There are lots of good reasons for a woman to reach such an unfortunate choice. There is too much church moralising on an issue that has sod all to do with them. Would you like to go to the old catholic alternative and throw girls raped by priests into catholic run workhouses where the children were removed to feed the orphanage, which of course was church run and the reservoir of further abuse victims?
Edit link inserted:
Magdalene Asylum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ah, no your COMMENT was poor taste. And as a joke, (i think you meant it as a joke) it is particularly unfunny. I KNOW that abortion is a part of some peoples lives, unfortunately its also a part of death. OF AN INNOCENT LIFE..
So, NO I dont advocate what happened in your "link", .. Of course with you it always comes back to the Catholic faith. I would be the worst , uneducated person to defend the catholic faith, but dont blame them/us all the time.
I can see NO reason to abort/murder an unborn child. A child born with a disability, No , No reason, the mothers potential or imminent demise, no , no reason, conception of rape or incest, again, NO NO reason. Ok, I can understand TO A POINT, that conception, gestation and the birth of a child born under these circumstances, would be traumatic in the least, however, once again, NO NO reason, . And you know, I have always had these beliefs, even when i turned my back on the catholic church, even when i was pagan, yes, my whole entire life, because I know, it is wrong.
For too long, we, the public has been desensitised to this. I mean it happens every day, it must be ok, under certain circumstances.
Well,. its not.
You and I dont know what that life, if born will achieve. im sure the future our parents envisioned for us, is somewhat different to what we are experienceing. But at least we got a chance to live it.
We should never forget to thank our parents for that.
My mother was pregnant to a man, who abandoned her when he found out she was pregnant. She was sent away (like most in her situation) for a "holiday" for a few months and came back without her baby. She could have aborted, she didnt.
And I thank her for giving me the chance of life.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Wow. You got a real rosy outlook on life, yano...

Well it is all true, and it was extensive, there were 3 such wash-houses here in Edinburgh right into the 60's, and the orphanages till the 80's. When you add it all up, realise that it was an official commercial "business" run by the CC to exploit free labour, its bloody hideous. I know quite a lot about the subject but google searches are increasingly unreliable. The CC I think is probably using their considerable power to make searching for "bad press" increasingly difficult. After all it would be a priority for pope rat-zinger....( surely there must be something in that word play too!! ).... after all it was his job in the CC for a long time.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Ah, no your COMMENT was poor taste. And as a joke, (i think you meant it as a joke) it is particularly unfunny. I KNOW that abortion is a part of some peoples lives, unfortunately its also a part of death. OF AN INNOCENT LIFE..
So, NO I dont advocate what happened in your "link", .. Of course with you it always comes back to the Catholic faith. I would be the worst , uneducated person to defend the catholic faith, but dont blame them/us all the time.
I can see NO reason to abort/murder an unborn child. A child born with a disability, No , No reason, the mothers potential or imminent demise, no , no reason, conception of rape or incest, again, NO NO reason. Ok, I can understand TO A POINT, that conception, gestation and the birth of a child born under these circumstances, would be traumatic in the least, however, once again, NO NO reason, . And you know, I have always had these beliefs, even when i turned my back on the catholic church, even when i was pagan, yes, my whole entire life, because I know, it is wrong.
For too long, we, the public has been desensitised to this. I mean it happens every day, it must be ok, under certain circumstances.
Well,. its not.
You and I dont know what that life, if born will achieve. im sure the future our parents envisioned for us, is somewhat different to what we are experienceing. But at least we got a chance to live it.
We should never forget to thank our parents for that.
My mother was pregnant to a man, who abandoned her when he found out she was pregnant. She was sent away (like most in her situation) for a "holiday" for a few months and came back without her baby. She could have aborted, she didnt.
And I thank her for giving me the chance of life.

And so do I!
I probably agree with you wholesale. I have been in the position of being consulted as the impregnator on the question and my response was it is a decision for the woman. There is not just the right to life for a child, there is an equal right to a determined life for a woman too. If a woman is using abortion as her method of birth control then she is so stupid that it maybe her genes are better not transmitted. But for most women who face this terrible choice it must be one of the most profoundly difficult dillemas they will ever encounter.
As for the CC, from what I see it is still the same old organisation that burned witches, tortured and made a business from taxing people in every concievable way. It is about the most 'filthy' institution in human history and shows no sign of change.
http://www.tldm.org/News12/PolandProlifeGroupsCallForHealthMinister%27sExcommunication.htm

 

[immortalitylost]

Yup, people are bad. Christian people are most times just as bad as any. And The church has done horrible things. I get that. I agree. And it sucks that they don't always have to own up to the terrible things that they do. I mean, the witch trials were as bad, (in reasoning, not in scale,) as what Hitler did to the jews. I mean, the term for what hitler did, a witch hunt, came out of the witch trials. Where is the utter worldwide condemnation and disgust for them, like there is for Hitler? We look at them as almost like a cutesy little myth, like a spooky story to scare little kids, and we joke about what was an atrocity, and a plague of suspicion and fear brought on by possibly the highest power of the time. And we don't take it seriously.

I was messing about but I do understand the seriousness of what you say.

 

[Dream]

Dream: So fetus's aren't really people until they grow for nine months and are born? What about premature babies? Are these not really alive yet either? Or do they count because they are out of the mothers womb.

A seed contains a tree, even when it is a seed. What if the universe was just snuffed out in it's infancy? What about the earth? Would that have been a problem? They weren't fully formed yet. They still aren't. Do children count as people? They aren't fully matured and grown into the image of God yet, are they? I mean, just where do you draw the line, and what qualifications do you use?

You are right to point out that every child is different. A loss of diversity is a negative thing, but abortion is not the same thing as murder. Abortion is not something greymare would do. It is not something you would do, IL, if you as a man could get pregnant. It should not be illegal, however. Sometimes it is the correct choice. There is nowhere to draw the line. You just have to depend upon a mother's judgment. She brought you into the world and she can take you out of it.

Dream, I dont understand that a infant is not the image of God until it has grown. (define grown). I have never heard of this god molech? Do you mean that if a child isnt "perfect" ie disabled that they arent made in the image of God? That they arent as valuable? I may have the wrong end of the stick, i dont know, Im just trying to get a little clarification Please.

I do agree that working long hours and not spending time with your kids is bad, but unfortunately it happens. Thankfully, thats where close family etc hopefully can pick up the slack.

What I'm saying is that murder is different from abortion, not that infants are bad or worthless. An infant is a gift, and such a gift should not be taken lightly, but a mother should not be charged with murder in cases of abortion. An infant is not completely alive without its mother, and she has to support its life or not. Life is a gift, and the mother must share her part of it of her own free will.

No, infants are not yet in the image of God. They haven't learned about love, about being more than animals. They don't even know what 'I' or 'You' means. They are beautiful, potential, and wonderful. They are vulnerable, needy, and challenging. They can be a wonderful investment, but you have to choose to invest. It cannot be a matter of law. Such a law proclaims too much authority for itself in an area where it has none.

 

[seattlegal]

You are right to point out that every child is different. A loss of diversity is a negative thing, but abortion is not the same thing as murder. Abortion is not something greymare would do. It is not something you would do, IL, if you as a man could get pregnant. It should not be illegal, however. Sometimes it is the correct choice. There is nowhere to draw the line. You just have to depend upon a mother's judgment. She brought you into the world and she can take you out of it.

Um, Dream, Mort is a woman. (A man cannot get PCOS--Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome. However, if you can imagine the most horrible zits/cysts you've ever had forming on your gonads--which can not only make even walking quite painful--these cysts also produce hormones from the opposite sex, giving you that "andogenous look," you might get an idea of what it is like.) If men had to put up with it, there would have been a cure for it lickety-split. Oh yeah, it also seriously messes with your fertility.

 

[Dream]

To be pro-abortion are you mentally ill or morally ill?

My opinion is you have to be both.

Its like this, steadfast: pro-abortion is a term that doesn't have anything to do with the people involved in the subject. Abortion prohibition assumes that laws are enough. It jumps right over the highest judge, which is the mothers. You must not make the law your mother, it just doesn't work that way. We have to respect mothers for their contribution to society, and that respect is the foundation of all law. They are givers of life. They give willingly, so that we may live. If the law does not recognize this, then it is no longer a reasonable but an absolute law. It will destroy us, or God will destroy it.

The subject is really about where life comes from and; what laws are for. We need some kind of respect for life built into our laws; but laws have their limits, and they rely upon human nature in order to work at all. They require a living element to keep working. First of all, they have to recognize that there is always room for improvement; which means there cannot be a law for everything. Some things must be self governing, and motherhood is the first one.

 

[seattlegal]

SG: Our health care system is terrible. Especially the insurance companies that will only cover what they believe in as medicine. I have PCOS, and part of what the doctor prescribed me at one time was birth control pills. My insurance would not help pay for these because they were a contraceptive. Even though I was using them for their medicinal purposes. So it's not only abortion this type of pick and choose coverage is encouraging.

How in the heck are you supposed to get pregnant if you have PCOS? In this case the hormone pills are not contraceptives. Jeez.

I betcha that if men came down with an analogous syndrome, all costs and necessary drugs would be covered in full. (Can't be havin' something that messes with a man's manhood, now, can we? Not only would it be undignified, but I'm sure that violence would increase dramatically if men had to suffer with such a syndrome. )

And any company that is more concerned with the bottom line than people's health is deliberately evil in my opinion. And it's a sad fact that the federal government is incapable of running anything in an orderly, efficient, or sensible manner. They're just too big, clunky, and full of crap to get anything done, let alone done right.

All bureaucracies are prone to corruption, and hence, evil.
Who needs healthcare bureaucracies, anyway?

As far as the scorn of people goes. Well what wouldn't less of that improve. When people scorn the really terrible stuff, it doesn't tend to do any good, and the scorn for the rest usually has a negative effect. And it could help foster that belief. But the frequency that abortions are perfomed also has to be a contributing factor. They've become almost everyday things, trivialized. And so people block out the fact that fetus's are just as alive as infants. They turn them into unfeeling lumps of flesh with no life or thought or souls. It's like a defense mechanism.

Exactly! You understand!