Abortion

Whaddaya mean, not fully integrated? :confused:
Psychologists are the secular confessional professional specialists.
Seculars are really only sessional secular confessional questional & emotional professional specialists. They are not integrated. Its slightly different from a priest, because they're mostly only sessional. Additionally the Pychiatrists are sessional secular pychologists plus they're also potionals, which makes them sessional secular confessional questional, emotional, & potional professional specialists. Sometimes I have trouble spelling it.
 
phew! life gets so complicated and specialised nowadays maybe its best to take grey's advice with such issues and 'just deal with it':)
 
Dream: Yup, SG's right, I'm a chick. And I also agree that there should not be laws passed about abortions. It's just not the business of the government in my mind.

SG: Yeah, PCOS sucks the big one. And I suppose it has shaped my views about abortion. The fact that I may not be able to have a child has made me realize how precious life is. So I'm thankful for that. Though I would have preferred a more... Medical problem free method of instruction.

Cz: I thought ya might like that. Although my dad has informed me that I've misspelled some words in the certificate. Of course... Ah, well. Perfection is not my middle name. :p
 
And Cz. Wouldn't abortion be just as traumatic then? I mean, a mother would not be able to picture what she has lost in that situation either. I don't think that the mothers well being should be the only thing considered either, I mean, we are talking about stopping a life here, not just scraping out some lump of random flesh. A fetus at any stage has life, and the potential for life. That should not just be brushed aside.

Also, we may only have that many adoptions a year, but that does not factor in that many people have to wait quite a long time to adopt a child. Babies especially are scooped up so quickly that many thousands of people I'd wager would be glad if a baby that would have otherwise been aborted was carried to term and adopted. So, there would most likely be homes for these babies. There are much less being adopted right now than families willing to take one in.

And sure adoption would be harder on the mother, having to carry a life inside of you for nine months tends to have a bonding effect. But if a baby was conceived out of sheer thoughtlessness, or laziness on the mothers part, and she just doesn't want the resulting child, I don't think it's right for her to kill it, and I don't think that the trauma of giving the child away should be used as an excuse not to do so. At least then the child would live instead of dying to save a woman a small bit of anguish.
 
Trends in Foster Care and Adoption—FY 2002-FY 2007
(Based on data submitted by states as of January 16, 2008)
Source: AFCARS data, U.S. Children's Bureau, Administration for Children, Youth and Families

trends02-07.gif

Trends in Foster Care and Adoption--FY 2002-FY 2007
 
Do you think that this would never happen if we forced women to carry they babies and give them up for adoption? I'm sure that there would still be regrets, still be heart ache, still be birthdays for children they never raised.

It would be compounded by the likelihood that it would be more common for children to be raised their whole childhood in orphanages. I don't have the exact numbers, but there were over 800,000 abortions last year and only 120,000 adoptions. Where would happen to this flood of orphans?

How much heartache will be felt by women who wonder if that 22 year old they see on the street could be their son or daughter? Psychological damage won't magically disappear if we force women to bring their babies to term.

ok so it would hurt to give your child up for adoption.. but lifes full of hurts. dont you think that the child has a right to his/her life good and bad experiences and everything esle ?.. you ask my friend and she would say 100% yes.
 
ok so it would hurt to give your child up for adoption.. but lifes full of hurts.

But FS, you were the one who introduced the notion that abortion inflicts psychological pain upon the woman. I was merely offering the counterpoint that adoption comes with its own psychological effects.

I do think it's interesting that you're now acting quite blasé about this pain. I can't imagine that you'd tell your friend, "Life's full of pain. You need to just get over it."
 
Dont you think that the child has a right to his/her life good and bad experiences and everything esle ?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that motherhood is not an 18-year position. It is a life-long endeavor. Nobody should bring children into this world unless they are willing to devote the rest of their life to being a mother... or are willing to give the child up for adoption.

As to your question... No, I don't think the fetus alone has this right. We shouldn't force women to become vessels or slaves to bring these pregnancies to term. The rights of the woman supersede the rights of the fetus until that child is born.
 
Nobody should bring children into this world unless they are willing to devote the rest of their life to being a mother... or are willing to give the child up for adoption.

So, would you also agree with the statement that no one should have sex unless they are willing to devote the rest of their life to being a parent?

Given that most birth control methods short of sterilization can fail, under what circumstances is it OK to have sex if one does not want to become a parent?
 
Nobody should bring children into this world unless they are willing to devote the rest of their life to being a mother

Once you do bring children into the world, though, a whole range of biological programs kick in that effectively say, no matter how unprepared you feel, you'll do your best. That's why I think we're horrified when we hear about abuse cases in the news - it's parents working completely against their natural programming.

While I would still class myself as being in the pro-choice camp, but with more restrictions, I think there's far too much ideological in pro-choice in general that being a parent is something you can simply tick off on your calendar for a certain date, and feel totally prepared for conception, pregnancy, and birth. I have yet to see life work that way, and even those I know who planned their families as much as possible, were still never prepared for the sheer culture shock of moving from being a couple to a parent.

We all have responsibilities - I fear too much of the pro-choice position is about shirking responsibilities, rather than facing up to them.

Funny - I'm claiming a pro-choice stance but being most critical about the pro-choice position. I guess, being a parent, I think there's too much abstract thinking and unrealised presumptions involved.

2c. :)
 
Funny - I'm claiming a pro-choice stance but being most critical about the pro-choice position. I guess, being a parent, I think there's too much abstract thinking and unrealised presumptions involved.

2c. :)

I agree with all of that Brian, and especially this last bit. The whole issue is too complex for a simple slogan to answer. I am pro-choice for this reason although like you I have more criticisms of it than praise.

As for family planning, haha! So right! Little prepares us for the shock of parenthood, except a healthy dose of patience and flexibility. Man plans, God laughs.
 
One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that motherhood is not an 18-year position. It is a life-long endeavor. Nobody should bring children into this world unless they are willing to devote the rest of their life to being a mother... or are willing to give the child up for adoption.

As to your question... No, I don't think the fetus alone has this right. We shouldn't force women to become vessels or slaves to bring these pregnancies to term. The rights of the woman supersede the rights of the fetus until that child is born.

Being a mother is something that NOBODY can properly prepare for. (esp the first time mother!) I dont care how many books you read, or how many siblings you raise yourself, to experience it is the most wonderful, challenging, heart breaking , thing you can ever do. ( and I imagine so is being a father). And no, it doesnt end when they are adults or when they tehmselves get married, or even when you become a grandparent. i would do it over and over again.

I believe, however that the life of that child yet to be born, supercedes all. That child is the most precious thing there is. The most vunerable, the most valuable, above the mothers life.
 
Hey, don't discount the fathers...now there are a lot of deadbeat dads....but try twins for your first time out...I think those that do it one at a time are just plain lazy.
 
So, would you also agree with the statement that no one should have sex unless they are willing to devote the rest of their life to being a parent?

I believe my opening post talked about mandatory, automatic 25% deduction of ALL wages earned by men who father children outside of marriage.

People will have sex. This is my suggestion for dealing with the results.


Being a mother is something that NOBODY can properly prepare for. (esp the first time mother!) I dont care how many books you read, or how many siblings you raise yourself, to experience it is the most wonderful, challenging, heart breaking , thing you can ever do. ( and I imagine so is being a father). And no, it doesnt end when they are adults or when they tehmselves get married, or even when you become a grandparent.

Exactly. This is why it's important to enter into this life-long commitment willingly.
 
well, you get 9 months to get used to the idea.

YOU WILL GET USED TO THE IDEA!!!

THEN YOU WILL RAISE THAT CHILD!!!

AND YOU WILL LIKE IT... NO, YOU WILL LOVE IT!!!




Don't worry... It's just a bumpy beginning on the road to domestic bliss.
 
ah, no, i didnt say anything about raising it. You dont have to , like I said, there are other options. Beleive it or not, some adopted kids turn out ok. but yes, if you want to put it that way, you get pregnant, thats a life, not yours, your life is only temporarily interrupted, (if you want to be objective about this), if you have no intention of raising this child, at least give it the nine months to grow, then leave it, at least give it a chance, your parents did. its the least you can do.
Harsh, but true, . All you have to do is understand that its a LIFE, just as you once were. ...
 
I think the whole pro choice thing about it being a womans body, and her rights is kinda funny. They say it's her body like the fetus inside of her is just another part of her body, a useless part like an appendix that won't affect much if ya get rid of it. They kinda totally blow off the fact that a fetus is a distinct and separate life.

I mean, anyone that has been pregnant can probably attest to that. Anyone who has seen an ultrasound of a fetus still in the womb probably doesn't look at it and think "Wow, look at that useless little lumpy part of my body." They probably think of it as their baby, as a new life growing inside of them even though it isn't fully developed enough to be born yet.

I just think that whole "it isn't a baby until it's born" thing is a load of poop. A baby at say seven months isn't fully formed. Is there any difference between a baby of that age still inside the mother's womb, and a baby of that age born prematurely? Does one count while the other does not?

I mean really, it's silly to draw such lines. It's a baby. Technically every baby that humans have is premature. We go through a shorter gestational period to make up for the physiological changes of a smaller pelvis (which allows us to walk upright) and a larger cranial size (which allows our bigger brains to fit inside.) So none of our newborns are technically fully formed yet. They're still people. Small, helpless, people that need our care to survive, the same as they need our care in the womb to develop. I see no difference.

I don't think women should be forced to carry a child, and I don't think that the 25% thing taken from only the males is gonna work either. I mean do the woman share in no part of the blame? I just think that both men and women should be taught to be more responsible about their choices, especially when it comes to sex simply because it can result in a life created. And I don't think it's right to murder a baby because you made a bad choice and don't want to deal with the consequences.

I dunno. The whole thing just makes me pessimistic when it comes to the human race. Have we gone that far, that we would kill a baby, unborn or not, to get out of a consequence of our bad decision? That's really what I get sad about. When people know better, don't try to prevent a child being born, and then use abortion as their contraceptive. And even if you say that it was terrible for the mother, it was terrible for the baby as well. It died. The mom just goes through a rough part of her life. I think abortion in those cases is as bad as someone who wants to kill people for having unprotected sex. It's that extreme for me. That bad.

It's kinda like saying that murdering people that can take care of themselves to some degree is wrong, but killing babies that are still dependent on their mothers body to survive is alright, because it isn't really a separate person yet. I mean, you can't see it right? It must not be alive.

Another thing that really gets me is that when someone murders a pregnant woman, the penalty is harsher, and it is looked at as worse than just killing a woman. If someone else kills a woman's fetus, even without killing her, they get in trouble. That's considered terrible. But it's alright for a woman to kill her own fetus? It's not ok to do once the baby comes out, so what's the difference? How is that right? I just don't get it...
 
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