Sufism - The Truth About the "truth"

[Snoopy]

(Hmm)

Maybe, I am not against anything. . .
but, I am against everything. . .

My revolutionary days are behind me.
I could care less about such... politics

(Hmm)

so the answer to my questions it what then....?

The simplest I can put it is this:-

If "existence precedes essence" then that means before we existed we did not have an essence. Whether or not we believe we were "created" by a God or not, we have to admit that our essence was always dependent on something else. If one is an atheist then he probably believes that his (finite) essence is dependent on mechanistic laws of mathematics, which spawned the universe. In these terms, it is not really an absolute/infinite reality. But the fact is that even if you believe in God, you can not believe that your essence is an absolute reality, because you can not claim that your existence came about independently.

On the other hand, if God does exist, according to His word in the Quran/Bible, than God's essence/existence is different from us because He was not "created". Therefore, His existence/essence is not dependent, on anything else. Therefore, only God can be said to truly "exist" in any absolute sense.

It is thus that I conclude "we don't actually exist." Because "our" reality is not, and never was, absolute/independent.

Is this the same or like the Christian (?) notion of the Uncaused First Cause?

I think you should get over to the Continental Philosophy thread...coming up next...nihilism woo hoo...

s.

 

[c0de]

(Hmm)

so the answer to my questions it what then....?

... that i don't care enough about them to be "against" them ...

Is this the same or like the Christian (?) notion of the Uncaused First Cause?

The "first cause" argument is basically an attempt to prove/rationalize the existence of God, which I dont believe is possible anymore, and that is not what I am trying to do. (I have realized that everyone is working from a fundamental blindness, whether it is the atheist or the believer.)

On this thread, my point was to explore of foundation of Islamic existentialism and compare it with the methodology of Sufism.

I think you should get over to the Continental Philosophy thread...coming up next...nihilism woo hoo...

Roger that

 

[Snoopy]

... that i don't care enough about them to be "against" them ...

so don't you go to a mosque then? (hope I'm not treading on toes here...)

The "first cause" argument is basically an attempt to prove/rationalize the existence of God, which I dont believe is possible anymore,

Was it ever.

(I have realized that everyone is working from a fundamental blindness, whether it is the atheist or the believer.)

what do you mean by this?

On this thread, my point was to explore of foundation of Islamic existentialism and compare it with the methodology of Sufism.

Perhaps your audience is as small as my CP one.

Roger that

I know! I've just read it

s.

 

[c0de]

so don't you go to a mosque then? (hope I'm not treading on toes here...)

I go to the mosque for Friday prayers and the Eid prayers, but only because I have to.

what do you mean by this?

Both the believer and the athiest are working from a core set of assumptions.

Perhaps your audience is as small as my CP one.

pfft... who needs an audience?

 

[dailogue is the best]

Do you want to know where the blasphemy is?
Read what you just wrote again sister...
Can you not sense your own pride in these words?

How can you possibly ascribe any "purity" to your heart?
Is this what your sufi practices have guided you towards?
Pride in how much you think you are "devoted" to God?
How "close" you think you are to God?

It is well known sister that real progress on the path happens NOT
when one feels euphoria in their spiritual accomplishments, but the opposite.

It is not a matter of pride. It is a matter of showing thankfulness to God, and deserved debt to people doing us good. The prophet Muhammad pbuh said: who he thanks people, he thanks God.

You can classify those words of mine under God's saying:
<A name=11>[93:11] You shall proclaim the blessing your Lord has bestowed upon you.

Dont forget that the prophet Muhammad pbuh said:'I am the master of the descendents of Adam and I do not say so out of pride.

So, as you see, brother, God and his prophet pbuh have allowed us to mention God's bestow/bounties on us since the intention is to show thankfulness and not pride. And that was my intention, brother.

Yet, this doesnt mean that I have a purified soul/heart. In a previous post in this thread, I said that I am in daily strugle with myself.

When I said what I said, I was talking about a real experience, brother. After getting my BA, I decided to do a small research about Islamic psycholgy. This year I was jobless, hence most of my time was at home. I dedicated my full time to read books of sufi masters who are called the shoyokh the psycological education. As I told you before, from those people I learned a lot, and felt the change within me and outside me, too. I felt the peace within, and the peace outside. I felt that the world was more "lightly" than "earthly", more "spiritually" than "bodily". You may belie me, but even the smell of the air seemed to me different. It was as if I was smelling the world of spirit.

I was doing dikr and nawafil, and I was watching my heart: doing my best to not let any neagtive feeling to enter my heart. I experienced how a person can really move from his/her earthly nature to activate God's spirit within him/her. I experienced freeing myself from myself.

This situation lasted almost one year because I begun working the year after, and I stopped doing dikhr and nawafil due to the exhaustion/drainfulness I get from work. Yet, till now that year is still a source of inspiration for me. I can free myself if I reapeat the same experience. And anyone can undergoe the same experience, and feel the change. Those spiritual/sufi masters really showed me the way through their writings.

That's why, my brother, I am asserting that you are doing a great unjustice to those people and those who learn from them by saying that they are close to blasphemy.

Be warned, c0de. Blasphemy is a ver BIG word, brother. Those who follow sufi masters dont associate them with God. They are merely taking of the causes that God Himself sent to get to Him.

Man, is a complete zero, nothing more nothing less.

I like this very much. It reminds me of the prophet Muhammad pbuh saying: "die before you die". That's to say, die from the attachment to this world...

The "spirit of Islam" ??? Be warned sister, and never forget this one
HISTORICAL fact: Sufism was influenced by Hindu philosophies.
It is an innovation that came after the Prophet and the sahaba.

This is not a fact, brother. Sufism has basis from Islam and within Islam.

As for the innovation, brother, the prophet Muhammad pbuh himself talked about bad and good innovation. Who told you that Sufism is a bad innovation?! The prophet pbuh said: "He who inaugurates a good practice (sanna fil-islam sunnatun hasana) in Islam earns the reward of it, and of all who perform it after him, without diminishing their own rewards in the least. " Ulama also talked about the good innovation in Islam. Therefore, not all innovations are bad.

Great Muslim scholars, even not the sufi ones, agreed that sufism is something good, and they said of the high status of the sufi people.

Well, brother, can you tell me: was the science of Tajwid for example in the time of the prophet Muhammad pbuh? No, it wasnt. Even the word "tajwid" is a new term.Then, Why there is not so much debate about that as it is about sufism?

To call it the "spirit of Islam" is therefore nonsensical.
So be careful about following that which God has sent down no authority.

Sufism is concerned with the "hidden" knowledge, and that is the spirit of Islam, c0de. If scholars of sharia said that one's body has to be clean while praying, sufis "scholars of truth/hakika" said that one's heart has to be clean while praying. And the examples are numerous. So, is not sufism the spirit of Islam. One wont feel anything if he prays with a clean body, but he would recieve God's gifts if he attends with a clean body and heart. He wont get to the spirit of Islam without focusing on the inner. That's why, sufism is the spirit of Islam.

No one can help you get closer to God, but God

.

Very clear and agreed about that from the very beginning. But, I said God made causes for anything. I dont know it is hard for you to grasp that: Sufi masters are just teachers who show the path to God.

You are still ignoring my main objection to your argument.
How do you know which person is truly "endowed with
divine knowledge"?

Through his writing/knowledge. Are "The Revival of the sciences of religion" of Imam AlGhazali for example not enough to know the divine knowledge bestowed on him by God? Is such knowledge bestowed on other than God's friends and lovers?

My dear sister, you can NOT make the claim that Khidr (ra) was
a "spiritual guide" to Moses (pbuh) without using those ahadith.
Your argument is still incomplete.

How strange!! If someone shows you how God is merciful and how His mercy is huge is not then spiritually guiding you to strenght your faith? Khidr ra has the hidden knowledge and that the science that sufi masters are endowed with by God.

you have ignored the main message: rely on no one other then God!
Did the Prophet have any "spiritual guides" other then God? No!
Isn't that part of the Sunnah?

c0de, dont you take medecines while you are ill? dont you learn from teachers/authors? dont you take the car/bus/plane to travel? I dont know why you cant understand that all these are just causes... Cant you understand this? I cant learn without a teacher, and God sends me a teacher. God is my helper and guide,and there are ways/causes to get to Him. where is the fault in this?

And what makes you so sure the people who you think are "guides" are not sent to test your faith?

Read about their writing...

They could very well be working for satan.

I ask God's forgiveness. It s heartbreaking what you said. Be warned, brother. You are talking about God's friends. Read, read, and read before you judge. And if you are still confused, make stikhara prayer. Ask God directly to show you if the sufis are right or wrong.

Can you see into their hearts? So how can you trust anyone other than God? God also uses evil people to lead us astray you know. And do not think that evil people are always evil looking... Sometimes, they can
appear to be "pure". These are the ones which are the most dangerous.

The above advice...

 

[wil]

I go to the mosque for Friday prayers and the Eid prayers, but only because I have to.

Only because you have to?

What does that mean.

ie who is forcing you? and why don't you want to be there?

 

[c0de]

DITB + Wil
​

@ DITB

This is not a fact, brother. Sufism has basis from Islam and within Islam.

Yes, it is a fact.

Ernst, Carl W. (2005). "Situating Sufism and Yoga". Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society Series 3, 15:1 (2005), pp. 15-43

Through his writing/knowledge. Are "The Revival of the sciences of religion" of Imam AlGhazali for example not enough to know the divine knowledge bestowed on him by God? Is such knowledge bestowed on other than God's friends and lovers?

I respect Al-Ghazali, but there are flaws in his Ashari arguments as well. But this still does not answer the main objection: how do you know these spiritual masters that guide novice sufis are endowed with any special spiritual ranks?

I was doing dikr and nawafil, and I was watching my heart: doing my best to not let any neagtive feeling to enter my heart. I experienced how a person can really move from his/her earthly nature to activate God's spirit within him/her. I experienced freeing myself from myself.

Sister, I went through that same stage almost 10 years ago. And believe me, you will (inshAllah) realize the illusions of that period. Maybe not now, because you are so attached to those experiences and do not want to let them go... But maybe one day you will see, what I saw, in these words of yours...

But there is no point in me telling you this now...

That's why, my brother, I am asserting that you are doing a great unjustice to those people and those who learn from them by saying that they are close to blasphemy.

The ones who say they can raise themselves to higher spiritual planes (the core assertion of sufism) are the ones doing the injustice.

Be warned, brother. You are talking about God's friends.

Am I?

How do you know?

Did God tell you they are His friends?







@ Wil

I go because I am told to go to the mosque for Friday prayers in the Quran.
Not because I want to hear a 25 year old mullah-in-training shout into a loudspeaker
for a half hour about things he hardly understands.

 

[dailogue is the best]

This is in line with the Sufis I've met. Not that they've rid themselves completely of self, but they are focused on that path.

yeah, you are true. The more exact saying is that normal people are tired of themselves, while with the sufis the self is tired as they are focused on the path as you said..

 

[dailogue is the best]

And if you think doing dikhr or offering nafl prayers is going to earn you "purity", than you are very mistaken. No one is capable of "earning" purity. God gives such gifts willingly to those he chooses. This itself contradicts the entire philosophy of Sufism.

Clear contradiction of the Quran and the Sunnah:

[29:69] As for those who strive in our cause, we will surely guide them in our paths. Most assuredly, GOD is with the pious.

[2:152] "Remember Me and I will remember you."

the Prophet (s) said, "The difference between the one who makes dhikr and the one who doesn't make dhikr is like the difference between the living and the dead."

In Bukhari and Muslim it is narrated from Abu Huraira that the Prophet (s) said, "As my servant thinks about Me so will I be for him. I am with him if he will remember Me. If he calls on Me in himself I will call him in Myself, and if he calls on Me in a group of people, I mention him in a better group in My presence. If he approaches Me one handspan, I will approach him one arm's length; if he approaches Me one arm's length, I will approach him by a cubit; if he comes to Me walking, I will come to him running."

The Prophet (s) said, "Everything has its polish and the polish of hearts is dhikrullah."

And one more thing: the whole point of Islam is to remove all intermediaries between God and man.

Agreed

This idea is the true "spirit of Islam". Therefore, the whole concept of "spiritual guides" in sufism goes against this spirit by introducing intermediaries.

False analogy. Spiritual guides are ways to God, and are not intermediaries. They dont say to their novice: "I will talk to God in your behalf. You cant get to God without me." They just show them the way...

 

[dailogue is the best]

Nor does he have any power of intercession. (Many Muslims do not
even understand this).

He has zero influence over God's decisions. This is why Muslims don't pray to
the Prophet, nor do we invoke him for confession. We try to get in touch
with God directly... (or at least that is what we are suppose to be doing).

Monotheism's mission is to liberate man from other men....
but man prefers slavery to other men, rather then God Himself.

The prophet Muhammad pbuh has a very special status to God. Hence, loving him, and following his sunnah and teaching is another great way to get to Allah. Also, in making prayers/ Duae to God, it is preferable to make salat/prayer for the prophet Muhammad pbuh before and after duae. It would recieve more response because of the high status of the prophet Muhammad pbuh to God. To get near the beloved by loving His beloved: this is another way to get to Allah..

[4:64]...Had they, when they wronged their souls, come to you and prayed to GOD for forgiveness, and the messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would have found GOD Redeemer, Most Merciful.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Well don't wear your(non)self out

s.

hhhhhhhhh, I will try

 

[c0de]

.


@ DITB

I noticed you completely ignored tackling the main issues. #1 sufism was influenced by hinduism and eastern philosophies and #2 there is no way for you to verify the closeness of God of any "spiritual guide". Because you have failed to answer these points, technically, you have lost this debate. I could stop right now, and ignore the rest of your posts... but lets continue.

​

False analogy. Spiritual guides are ways to God, and are not intermediaries. They dont say to their novice: "I will talk to God in your behalf. You cant get to God without me." They just show them the way...

You have failed to prove how they are "ways" to anything, let alone God.

Clear contradiction of the Quran and the Sunnah:

No it is not. This is what I wrote: "No one is capable of "earning" purity. God gives such gifts willingly to those he chooses." Now read the following verse.

Chapter 28; Verse 68​

And thy Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases. To choose is not theirs. Glory be to Allah and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him)!

​

[29:69] As for those who strive in our cause, we will surely guide them in our paths. Most assuredly, GOD is with the pious.

[2:152] "Remember Me and I will remember you."

Where in these verses does God tell us to
seek sufi masters so that they can guide us to God?

Take these verses in context, together with the
verse I quoted above.

The prophet Muhammad pbuh has a very special status to God. Hence, loving him, and following his sunnah and teaching is another great way to get to Allah.

Can you tell what's wrong with this picture?

 

[dailogue is the best]

.


@ DITB

I noticed you completely ignored tackling the main issues. #1 sufism was influenced by hinduism and eastern philosophies and #2 there is no way for you to verify the closeness of God of any "spiritual guide". Because you have failed to answer these points, technically, you have lost this debate. I could stop right now, and ignore the rest of your posts... but lets continue.

hhhhhhhhh.....I know you are a gentelman...

I didnt ignore it in purpose, brother. As you saw, I didnt reply to any part of that post because I let it for other time, esp that article was not allowed for me to read. It needs a code (not you...hhhhh)

 

[c0de]

hhhhhhhhh.....I know you are a gentelman...

Definitely not, but thank u
(what does "hhhhhhh" mean??)

I didnt ignore it in purpose, brother. As you saw, I didnt reply to any part of that post because I let it for other time,

ok

esp that article was not allowed for me to read. It needs a code (not you...hhhhh)

I just typed "sufism hinduism influence" in google and look at all I found in a second:

(this is a documentary, apparently)
Documentary to link Hinduism with Sufism

Cosmos as a Veil --- Hinduism & Sufism

Sufism And Hinduism - Research Paper - Disizyimhot33


I ran another search "sufism buddhism influence" and found more stuff,
ill just post one or two:

YouTube - Two Pitchers: the Co-evolution of Sufism and Buddhism
(another documentary)

The Relation between Buddhism and Sufism: Response to Majid Tehranian



all of this took me like 5 mins... because the l link between sufism and
these eastern philosophies (like i told you) is a historical fact.

 

[wil]

I ran another search "sufism buddhism influence" and found more stuff,
ill just post one or two:

all of this took me like 5 mins... because the l link between sufism and
these eastern philosophies (like i told you) is a historical fact.

I suppose I'm just dense.

Now my understanding is you don't ascribe to sufism. That you don't believe in it. But now while that is all wonderful, why the obsession? If it is something you don't believe, why do you care if there are llinks to hinduism or buddhism?

Now if I as a Christian wanted to show my disregard for Islam, what should I google as an influence and then show as proof for how evil it is and how no one should trust it? Would that affect your belief...I'm just guessing not.

Lastly since I subscrbe to some interfaith beliefs and allowing one to honor their beliefs and would appreciate if they allow the same to others...why would I want to go on so?

And if I didn't subscribe to same....why wouldn't I just partake on some preach to the choir forum instead of here?

 

[c0de]

Now my understanding is you don't ascribe to sufism. That you don't believe in it. But now while that is all wonderful, why the obsession? If it is something you don't believe, why do you care if there are llinks to hinduism or buddhism?

Because it was stated that "sufism is the spirit of Islam"...

 

[wil]

Because it was stated that "sufism is the spirit of Islam"...

Is not the spirit of Islam surrender to G!d?

Do you believe that Sufis or Hindus for that matter believe differently in that regard?

If Sufism is not the spirit of Islam? What is?

 

[c0de]

Do you believe that Sufis or Hindus for that matter believe differently in that regard?

Yes.

If Sufism is not the spirit of Islam? What is?

The Quran.

Is not the spirit of Islam surrender to G!d?

Surrender means letting go of your freedom. But the essential idea
in sufism (and it seems this has overtime infected all denominations)
is that man is free to raise himself in spiritual rank by doing x amount
of stuff and "earn" his way into God's grace. When the Quran makes it
clear (in many places) that it is not man who earns anything, but
grace is God's gift to man.

It may seem like an insignificant subtle difference to you wil, but it
changes the entire idea of "surrender". Surrender is supposed to instill
a spirit of humility in man, but with the sufi conception it is something
which causes spiritual pride, not to mention institutionalization.

Its the prevalence of this idea everywhere that I have a problem
with, not even just Sufism.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Hi Wil,

Is not the spirit of Islam surrender to G!d?

That's the Judeo-Christian spirit. Count up the number of terms that 'obedience' and 'hear' (used in the OT to mean 'obey') appears in the Bible.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Surrender means letting go of your freedom. But the essential idea in sufism (and it seems this has overtime infected all denominations) is that man is free to raise himself in spiritual rank by doing x amount of stuff and "earn" his way into God's grace.

My impression is that Sufis are all about love of God or tawakkul, What you write is hard to reconcile to various definitions of of tawakkul, which emphasize dependence on God. My source for the definitions that follow
http://www.al-islam.org/fortyhadith/14.htm.

The author of Manazil al-sai'rin says:

Tawakkul means entrusting all the matters to their Master and relying upon His trusteeship. [2]​

Some `urafa' have said:

​

Tawakkul means throwing the body down (as in prostration) in servitude (to God) and attaching the heart to (His) Lordship.​

That is, it means using one's bodily powers in obedience to God and refraining from interfering in the matters (of the heart) and consigning it to the Lord. Some others have said:

​

Tawakkul upon God means the severance by the servant of all hopes and expectations from the creatures (and attaching, them to God).

​