Sufism - The Truth About the "truth"

[Netti-Netti]

The Quran.

According to the Quran, Allah bestows Grace upon those He pleases. This is not an arbitrary action on Allah's part. It depends on whether the recipient is pleasing to Allah, that is, whether the person has been "doing x amount of stuff" to "'earn' his way into G-d's grace."

My reading of the Koran is that Allah expects faith and good works. The Prophet's critique of unbelievers is that they fail in both areas.

 

[c0de]

This is not an arbitrary action on Allah's part.

When an infinite Being deals with His creation, all actions are ultimately arbitrary. Even the rules which He set up, were created arbitrarily. God chose (arbitrarily) to reward good and punish evil. He was not forced to adopt such a method.

This is the point/spirit of Islam. It is uncompromising in accepting the supremacy of God above all, even the concepts of "goodness". (compare this to Socrates' conception of "good", as an objective quality). Consider the opening chapter of the Quran. The prayer of the Muslim is to ask for guidance, but at the same time the words clearly state that God is guiding everyone, the lost and the found.

Point being: Those individuals who receive God's grace do not receive it because they are inherently superior then the ones who do not. One of my favorite bible passages is when Jesus pbuh rebuked a follower of his when he called him "good" and Jesus pbuh replied: "why callest thou me good?"

No one is inherently "good", and I believe no one is inherently "evil" either. People do good and evil things, but man is nothing, at the end of it all, because he is a created being whose essence did not exist before his existence. Introducing such concepts into Islam (imo) opens the door for spiritual pride, hierarchy and institutionalization.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Hello c0de,

When an infinite Being deals with His creation, all actions are ultimately arbitrary. Even the rules which He set up, were created arbitrarily.

How would one presume to know G-d's thinking on this?

Point being: Those individuals who receive God's grace do not receive it because they are inherently superior then the ones who do not. One of my favorite bible passages is when Jesus pbuh rebuked a follower of his when he called him "good" and Jesus pbuh replied: "why callest thou me good?"

Here you cite Jesus to demonstrate an Islamic principle?

God chose (arbitrarily) to reward good and punish evil. He was not forced to adopt such a method.

I think we hae been using the term arbitrary differently

This is the point/spirit of Islam. It is uncompromising in accepting the supremacy of God above all, even the concepts of "goodness"....
The prayer of the Muslim is to ask for guidance, but at the same time the words clearly state that God is guiding everyone, the lost and the found.

I think G-d is ultimately unknowable. For that reason alone we can't really make a judgment about whether G-d's ethical imperative for humans is arbitrary. However, we do have Revelation given us to get a sense of His will for us. If divine standards were abitrary in the way I think of the word, then the 10 Commandments would be meaningless and all the injunctions we find in the Koran about how to conduct ourselves would be meaningless and the Path of Righteousness to which Revelation points would be nothing but a wild goose chase.

I agree with you, it is not man who raises himself. It is G-d who is raising him. But G-d raises the human's spiritual rank in response to the human's openness to the guidance that is revealed.

The human is capable of spiritual attainment when he/she trusts in G-d and he/she depends on G-d out of love for G-d. As I understand it, that's what Sufi Tawakkul is about. It seems that's also what the Koran is about.

These instances turned up when did a search on "Alllah loves" in the Koran:

[2.195] surely Allah loves the doers of good.
[2.222] surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him),
and He loves those who purify themselves.

[3.76] surely Allah loves those who guard (against evil).
[3.134] Allah loves the doers of good (to others).
[3.146] Allah loves the patient.
[3.148] Allah loves those who do good (to others).
[3.159] surely Allah loves those who trust.

[5.13] Allah loves those who do good (to others).
[5.42] surely Allah loves those who judge equitably.
[5.93] Allah loves those who do good (to others).

[9.4] Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.7] surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.108] Allah loves those who purify themselves.

[49.9] surely Allah loves those who act equitably.

[60.8] surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
​

Maybe G-d is arbitrary in some ultimate sense that we don't understand. But for our purposes, the above expectations don't seem arbitrary. As you go through the injunctions, the underlying principle becomes clear: I think it's called Devotion.

 

[c0de]

Hello c0de,

Hey Netti

However, we do have Revelation given us to get a sense of His will for us. If divine standards were abitrary in the way I think of the word, then the 10 Commandments would be meaningless and all the injunctions we find in the Koran about how to conduct ourselves would be meaningless and the Path of Righteousness to which Revelation points would be nothing but a wild goose chase.

First of all consider this: if God really wanted to guide all of mankind using the Ten Commandments/Revelation, He easily could have. But not all men are guided by revelation. Does this mean there is a defect in God's revelation? Of course not. But, since nothing stopped Him from controlling the nature of men so that everyone uniformly obeyed His rules (like the Angels), this must mean that God created us this way. This conclusion can not be avoided (if you believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient), but this does not render pointless His commandments because revelation is meant specifically to guide those He wants to guide. Revelation is like registered mail, it is meant for specific individuals.

Maybe G-d is arbitrary in some ultimate sense that we don't understand. But for our purposes, the above expectations don't seem arbitrary. As you go through the injunctions, the underlying principle becomes clear: I think it's called Devotion.

Allow me to try and reconcile your objections with Twakkul:-

If we were created to stray, what is the point of heaven and hell, people will ask? For example: the Quran states that certain men are destined for hell. The obvious objection here is that this (seems to) negate the love of God. But this argument is only valid if hell was eternal. It is also stated in the Quran that all men will not enter heaven until the "camel pass through the eye of the needle". Does this remind you of something? In the Bible, Jesus (pbuh) used the same analogy when describing the chances of a rich man entering heaven. His audience asked if this meant that no rich man would ever enter heaven, but Jesus (pbuh) said God can make anything possible i.e. even make the camel pass through the eye of a needle. So the Quran (almost indirectly) confirms that all men will eventually enter heaven.

This is the real basis of Twakkul: that God is preparing man for a life of eternal bliss in heaven, step by step. The process is difficult, and painful. Some go through hell in this life, some will go through hell in the next, but ultimately whatever finite pain one experiences, it can never be weighed against an infinite reward. That is Tawakkul, God's love.

The common objection to this is: why not just dispense with all the pain and put everyone in heaven to begin with? There are two responses to this: firstly, no amount of finite pain can even compare with infinite pleasure so we have no right to complain, and secondly that this was an ultimate arbitrary action on the part of God. Maybe He wanted to inflict pain on man, before sending him to heaven, just so that the rest of creation would not feel as if they got jipped... Who knows? Whatever God's reasoning might be (and I do not presume to know it) I can say that it was arbitrary because I know no one can force God to act.

How would one presume to know G-d's thinking on this?

My presumptions were only that God is an infinite, omnipotent and omniscient Creator, and we are His creations. The rest are just the logical conclusions which follow, considering the revelation contained within the Quran.

Here you cite Jesus to demonstrate an Islamic principle?

Of course. I believe he was a Muslim, remember?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Hi c0de, thanks for your patience!

Hey Netti

First of all consider this: if God really wanted to guide all of mankind using the Ten Commandments/Revelation, He easily could have. But not all men are guided by revelation. Does this mean there is a defect in God's revelation? Of course not.

But, since nothing stopped Him from controlling the nature of men so that everyone uniformly obeyed His rules (like the Angels), this must mean that God created us this way.

My first reaction to your view of predestination: it would seem to limit the value of the Prophets. Consider the Koran's critique of persons who fail to commit themselves in faith and aspiring righteousness. Those criticisms make no sense if one were to accept what you seem to be arguing, namely, that G-d has not chosen those who go astray. If G-d did not choose them, then they are not to blame for their failings.

Moral criticism assumes the person could have done otherwise or knew better. Your view of predestination would seem to suggest that some people are immoral and ignorant because G-d doesn't take any interest in their salvation. Based on the idea of personal responsibility, they are "off the hook." If it's all G-d's doing, then it's simply not their fault that they are immoral and ignorant of Divine Truth. Btw, why would one punish someone if they didn't know any better?

I am responding to your posts as an outsider who is interested in learning about Islam. On the subject of how G-d created humans, I had a question for you about fitra. It seems fitra is an innate capacity that is imparted to all humans. It seems that human beings are universally created with an ability to know G-d's truth. I don't see how one could accept the existence of this innate and universal property and then in effect argue that G-d overrides/nullifies an aspect of His own creation by selectively choosing those who will know His truth.

Of course. I believe (Jesus) was a Muslim, remember?

It's been a while. Where was that?

I'd like to respond to your other points a little later.

 

[c0de]

Hi c0de, thanks for your patience!

me patient? (lolz)

Moral criticism assumes the person could have done otherwise or knew better. Your view of predestination would seem to suggest that some people are immoral and ignorant because G-d doesn't take any interest in their salvation.

If God did not take an interest in the sinners, he would simply let them be and not punish them. Divine wrath is part of Divine mercy. Ponder on this verse:

"...He said: I smite with My punishment whom I will, and My mercy embraceth all things, therefore I shall ordain it for those who ward off (evil) and pay the poor-due, and those who believe Our revelations;" 7:156

Here God does not say that His mercy is limited to those who do good (whose description follows) but first makes it clear that His mercy is for all.

Btw, why would one punish someone if they didn't know any better?

Mankind has a capacity to learn, and punishment has the capacity to teach. Parents also punish their children, does that mean they do not love them?

Based on the idea of personal responsibility, they are "off the hook." If it's all G-d's doing, then it's simply not their fault that they are immoral and ignorant of Divine Truth.

Yep, exactly. That is why everyone will (inshAllah) end up in heaven. God created everyone, and ultimately He is responsible for their spiritual development. He has chosen this system of rewards and punishments, which is reflected in the lives of every human being as they grow up.

I know what this sounds like. As if I am saying that you can do whatever you want because you are not responsible. But what I am really saying is that if that is the message you take from this, then that is the path that was chosen for you. At the same time, if even after this you keep on the "path of righteousness" then that is the road you were meant to walk.

My first reaction to your view of predestination: it would seem to limit the value of the Prophets.

It destroys the "value" of everything actually, that is the point. In an absolute sense, only God has any "value".

I am responding to your posts as an outsider who is interested in learning about Islam. On the subject of how G-d created humans, I had a question for you about fitra. It seems fitra is an innate capacity that is imparted to all humans. It seems that human beings are universally created with an ability to know G-d's truth. I don't see how one could accept the existence of this innate and universal property and then in effect argue that G-d overrides/nullifies an aspect of His own creation by selectively choosing those who will know His truth.

Technically, how can "fitra" be "innate" if it was created? If a software engineer writes a program, he is effectively defining its "fitra" with every line of code that he writes. You can say that program has an "innate" power or abilities, but that is just a matter of semantics. Only if the program's abilities developed themselves can it said to have an "innate fitra" in the absolute sense.

It's been a while. Where was that?

Its a core belief of Muslims that all the Prophets came with the same message: God is one. Anyone who meets this criteria is effectively a Muslim. Abraham for example is specifically mentioned as a Muslim.

 

[dailogue is the best]

@ c0de​

sufism has basis in Islam and within the prophet Muhammad pbuh sunnah. It is declared in the sunnah that the prophet Muhammad pbuh was telling Ali Ibn Talib ra of the interpretation of every Quranic verse he pbuh was revealed. He went to Ali's home at each time he was revealed a verse, and told him about the "taawil" of each verse. That's why, the prophet Muhammed pbuh said: I am the city of knowledge, and Ali is its gate". That is to say, Ali is the heir of the prophet Muhammad pbuh in knowledge and spirituality, and if one is seeking for knowledge and spirituality, one has to take it through Ali ra. Look at Ali ra sayings and how they are full of spirituality and hidden knowledge. And that's why, all the scholarly and sufi tarikat/orders refer to Ali's sayings and take him as their own imam, working by the command of the prophet Muhammad pbuh.​

To say that Sufism was influenced by Hinduism it may be true, though I didn’t see in those articles any historical documentation of when and how Hinduism led to the creation of Sufism. What I want to say, c0de, that it may be true that Sufism was influenced by Hinduism and Eastern Philosophies, but they weren’t the cause of its creation. Its creation is based on the Quran and the Sunnah. And that what really matters. As for the influence, Islamic civilization is a wonderful example of co-existence of cultures as there was a big huge of translation movement from many languages to the Arabic language…​

No it is not. This is what I wrote: "No one is capable of "earning" purity. God gives such gifts willingly to those he chooses." Now read the following verse.

Chapter 28; Verse 68​

And thy Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases. To choose is not theirs.Glory be to Allah and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him)!​

Everything is done by God's will. That's something clear. God has laws, and it is within His law that God helps those who help themselves. If you do dhikr/nawafel prayers, watch your heart, then God will help you as the Hadith and the Quran verse I already cited clearly show.

Moreover, brother, look at the next verse to the one above: [28:69] Your Lord knows the innermost thoughts hidden in their chests, as well as everything they declare. This verse explains the ones before: God is the one who chooses, and His choice is based on the fact that God "knows the innermost thoughts hidden" in people's chests. This is God's Law, brother.

Then, people are capable of earning purity by the help of God if they help themselves and their innermost thoughts hidden is busy with God and His love.

We shouldn’t give up our role in building our relation with God, and in trying to achieve purity, c0de. Some Muslims don’t practice some Islamic pillars in purpose, and they keep saying:" May Allah guide us". God has already guided us as He sent us prophets and messengers to show us the way: the rest in on us.
God says:
[91:8] Then showed it what is evil and what is good.

[91:9] Successful is one who redeems it.
[91:10] Failing is one who neglects it.​

Others blame God for that. They say that it is God who willed for them to be astray. Look at the following verse:
[16:35] The idol worshipers say, "Had GOD willed, we would not worship any idols besides Him, nor would our parents. Nor would we prohibit anything besides His prohibitions." Those before them have done the same. Can the messengers do anything but deliver the complete message?

Where in these verses does God tell us to seek sufi masters so that they can guide us to God?

​

As I show you, both the Quran and the sunnah talks about a person as a guide to God. ​

And if you don’t believe in that, then you can consider Sufism a good innovation. What's wrong with that, c0de, since the aim is to help one to learn more about God, and try to educated one's self to get to God.​

Can you tell what's wrong with this picture?

​

Nothing, it is just a comment. I know you didn’t mean, but I found it irritating to say that Muhammad pbuh is just a "delivery man", and that he has zero influence on God's decision.​

​

 

[c0de]

.

@ DITB

You have failed to answer one key objection again. You have no way of verifying the spiritual status of any sufi master. Therefore, for you to call them the "friends" of Allah is itself misguided. To throw yourself in their service by becoming their "novices" is completely unsupported by the Quran and against the actual "spirit of Islam".

To say that Sufism was influenced by Hinduism it may be true, though I didn’t see in those articles any historical documentation of when and how Hinduism led to the creation of Sufism.

Still not convinced? If you wont listen to me, then listen to those like you who are supporters of Sufism.

Do you know who Martin Lings is? He wrote a famous biography of the Prophet. He is also a practicing Sufi himself. You know what he said about Sufism? “Prince Dara Shikoh (d.1619), the Sufi son of the Mogul Emperor Shah Jahan, was able to affirm that Sufism and Advaita Vedantism [Hinduism] are essentially the same, with a surface difference of terminology.” (Martin Lings - "What is Sufism", page 99).

Another supporter of Sufism was t he late Professor Fazlur Rehman Malik, (a highly respected scholar) said that: “[Sufi preachers] exerted a powerful influence on the masses by enlarging Quranic stories with the aid of materials borrowed from all kinds of sources, Christian, Jewish, Gnostic, and even Bhuddist and Zoroastrian.” and that "a number of [foreign] ideas were introduced into Sufism and thence into popular Islam." This from his book "Islam".

One more supporter is Seyyed Hossein Nasr, who admits Zorastrian influence in Sufism (Sufi Essays, page 138). He also said: “many Sufis in India called Hinduism the religion of Adam,” and, “[the] orthodox Naqshbandi saint Mirza Mazhar Jan Janan considered the Vedas as divinely inspired.” (page 139, same book)

it may be true that Sufism was influenced by Hinduism and Eastern Philosophies, but they weren’t the cause of its creation. Its creation is based on the Quran and the Sunnah.

Really? Then why did Fazlur Rehman also say that: “the Sufis (he is talking about the original sufis here, before Al Ghazali), in order to justify their stand, formulated (ie. verbally invented) statements, sometimes quite fanciful and historically completely fictitious, which they attributed to the Prophet.”? (This is from the same book)

Also think about how you can possibly accept something which is "based" on the Quran when you have the QURAN itself right in front of you?

Did you also know that it is a fact that most of the ahadith which the Sufis rely on are not even found in the major hadith collections. (This is in a book called "Muslims: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices." by Rippin, page 119.)

Spencer Trimmingham said: "[Sufis’] beliefs have been refuted, their practices condemned, their dervishes ridiculed and occasionally executed, and their shaikhs castigated.” (The Sufi Orders in Islam. page 246)

Some Muslims don’t practice some Islamic pillars in purpose, and they keep saying:" May Allah guide us". God has already guided us as He sent us prophets and messengers to show us the way: the rest in on us.
God says:
[91:8] Then showed it what is evil and what is good.
[91:9] Successful is one who redeems it.
[91:10] Failing is one who neglects it.

And where EXACTLY in these verses is it stated that it is in our power to "redeem" or "neglect"??? These verses should be taken in context with the following verses:

And whomsoever it is Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto the Surrender, and whomsoever it is His Will to send astray... 6:125​

Allah will establish in strength those who believe, with the word that stands firm, in this world and in the Hereafter; but Allah will leave, to stray, those who do wrong: Allah doeth what He willeth.​

14.027​

"Those before them did (also) devise plots; but in all things the master-planning is Allah's...." 13:42

"Now surely they are in doubt as to the meeting of their Lord; now surely He encompasses all things." 41:54 ​

To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are obedient to Him.​

30:26 ​

Others blame God for that. They say that it is God who willed for them to be astray. Look at the following verse:
[16:35] The idol worshipers say, "Had GOD willed, we would not worship any idols besides Him, nor would our parents. Nor would we prohibit anything besides His prohibitions." Those before them have done the same. Can the messengers do anything but deliver the complete message?

The point of this verse is not to prove that God has no control of the idol worshipers and their beliefs, it merely states the fact that the idol worshipers are astray from the path. Consider the fact that in this verse God does not contradict their saying, but instead states the job of the messenger, which is to deliver the message of God (to those who are meant to receive the blessings of it, not to the idol worshippers who will not listen). How many times in the Quran does God tell the Prophet that he has no power to guide anyone, and that only God gives guidance to who He wills?

I know you didn’t mean, but I found it irritating to say that Muhammad pbuh is just a "delivery man", and that he has zero influence on God's decision.

I meant exactly what I said. And I reject any hadith which claims otherwise. To attribute any influence over God is... well, crazy, frankly.

It is declared in the sunnah that the prophet Muhammad pbuh was telling Ali Ibn Talib ra of the interpretation of every Quranic verse he pbuh was revealed. He went to Ali's home at each time he was revealed a verse, and told him about the "taawil" of each verse. That's why, the prophet Muhammed pbuh said: I am the city of knowledge, and Ali is its gate". That is to say, Ali is the heir of the prophet Muhammad pbuh in knowledge and spirituality, and if one is seeking for knowledge and spirituality, one has to take it through Ali ra. Look at Ali ra sayings and how they are full of spirituality and hidden knowledge. And that's why, all the scholarly and sufi tarikat/orders refer to Ali's sayings and take him as their own imam, working by the command of the prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Nowhere in the Quran am I told to take Ali (ra) as my "imam". And as you know, I dont accept the hadith as a foundation for an argument on Islam.

Everything is done by God's will. That's something clear. God has laws, and it is within His law that God helps those who help themselves. If you do dhikr/nawafel prayers, watch your heart, then God will help you as the Hadith and the Quran verse I already cited clearly show.

I have already answered this objection. See my response to Netti and his question on fitra.

Moreover, brother, look at the next verse to the one above: [28:69] Your Lord knows the innermost thoughts hidden in their chests, as well as everything they declare. This verse explains the ones before: God is the one who chooses, and His choice is based on the fact that God "knows the innermost thoughts hidden" in people's chests. This is God's Law, brother.

Your argument is self defeating sister. You declare that God knows everyone's secret thoughts, but forget the implications of this statement. God doesnt just know what you are thinking right now, but He always knew everyone's thoughts because He is "all-knowing". Therefore, He created your fitrah, which controlled your inner thoughts before He created you. Therefore, you can not have any choice, as your fate was decided by your "inner thoughts" which are regulated by your fitrah, which was created by God.

Then, people are capable of earning purity by the help of God if they help themselves and their innermost thoughts hidden is busy with God and His love.

Wrong. No one "earns" anything. And thinking like this fuels spiritual pride.

We shouldn’t give up our role in building our relation with God, and in trying to achieve purity, c0de.

You think the only way to build a relationship with Allah is to try and "earn" purity?

 

[wil]

.
Also think about how you can possibly accept something which is "based" on the Quran when you have the QURAN itself right in front of you?

Pardon the intrusion but is that not the basis to throw every hadith and teacher out the window?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Hello again c0de,

God doesnt just know what you are thinking right now, but He always knew everyone's thoughts because He is "all-knowing". Therefore, He created your fitrah, which controlled your inner thoughts before He created you. Therefore, you can not have any choice, as your fate was decided by your "inner thoughts" which are regulated by your fitrah, which was created by God.

I see your logic. The question raised in my mind: what place does free will have in your view?

 

[c0de]

@ Wil

If it doesn't contradict the Quran, I have no problem with it.

@ Netti

None of course. http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-problem-of-evil-in-9846.html

 

[Netti-Netti]

The Koran makes a great deal of good works. I suppose one could argue that it is G-d working through individuals who are doing good works.

 

[c0de]

Exactly. And the same is true for evil works. God is working to bring about good, even through evil, because God's "mercy encompasses all things". However, only God is capable of wielding such a sword, and all attempts by man (utilitarian principle of "ends justifies the means" approach) is doomed to fail precisely to teach us this, imo.

 

[dailogue is the best]

.

@ DITB

You have no way of verifying the spiritual status of any sufi master.

I told you before: read their writings. Their writing is decisive proof of their spiritual status. What you find in their writings about spirituality show the divine knowledge God bestowed on them..

Therefore, for you to call them the "friends" of Allah is itself misguided.

It is said that if you want to know the status of a servant to God, then look in what God uses that servant.

Sufi masters are used for the service of God's creatures, and spreading the love of God. How can they not be God's friends?! God is loving and thankful, and love those who love Him. And if you deny their friendship to God, then you cant deny their love to God for whom they uproot the love of this worldlife and find their paradise only in with living with Him..

To throw yourself in their service by becoming their "novices" is completely unsupported by the Quran and against the actual "spirit of Islam".

Using the word "throw" is false, and shows bias. The right sentence is that a novice choses out of love of finding nearness to God and connection with Him to shape/educate himself/herself - as many chose to shape their body by a physical trainer- by the help of a spiritual trainer whom the novice completely believes that he (spiritual trainer) is an ligitimate way used by God for those who seek Him...

By the way, c0de, you have no proof that taking a spiritual master is completely unsupported by the Quran and against the actual "spirit of Islam".

I present you many Quranic proof and their interpretations, and also some hadiths which proof/ support my argument. Those proofs are adopted by many Muslims scholars, but if you chose to ignore them, that's another matter..

Still not convinced? If you wont listen to me, then listen to those like you who are supporters of Sufism.

Do you know who Martin Lings is?...Sufism and Advaita Vedantism [Hinduism] are essentially the same, with a surface difference of terminology.” (Martin Lings - "What is Sufism", page 99).

Thank you very much for the resources, c0de.

This quotation shows nothing. What if Hinduism and sufism almost are the same?! Where is the fault since there is nothing in sufism against my religion? All the religions have a lot in common even the human made religion like buddhism, shall we then say that this religion or that is "intruder" bc it has the same principles as the previous religions?

Another supporter of Sufism was the late Professor Fazlur Rehman Malik, (a highly respected scholar) said that: “[Sufi preachers] exerted a powerful influence on the masses by enlarging Quranic stories with the aid of materials borrowed from all kinds of sources, Christian, Jewish, Gnostic, and even Bhuddist and Zoroastrian.”

Yes, brother, I noted that in their books. But that is of no harm to Islam. Those sufi masters believes in the oness of humanity. That all humans are equal. Their use of other sources is just to spread love between humans by showing that all humans share the same morals and ethics even if they are of other religions/sects.

Moroever, brother, sufism in its broad meaning is about all the good morals and ethics. If one is with good akhlak/morals, then he/she is sufi taking the word in its broad meaning. Sufi masters believe that whoever excels you in morals, ethics,akhlak, then he/she excels you in religion. Hence, by quoting from other sources is just to show how sufism in its broad meaning is shared with all religions, and hence all people are one in that sense: seeking peace, love and co-existenc.

One more supporter is Seyyed Hossein Nasr..“many Sufis in

India called Hinduism the religion of Adam,” and, “[the] orthodox Naqshbandi saint Mirza Mazhar Jan Janan considered the Vedas as divinely inspired.” (page 139, same book)

May be they are refering to sufism in its broad meaning. Sufism is a very deep concept. I am about to read a book which talk about the sufism of Adam, and that of all the prophets till the prophet Muhammad peace be upon them all. The book tries to show that sufism has been existing since the creation of Adam pbuh.

As I told you, sufism has a deep meaning. And when I defend sufism within Islamic concept, I defend sunni sufism that is originated in Islam, and which is concerned about the status of Ihsan/excellenc/perfection in Islam: "[Ihsan is] to worship God as though you see Him, and if you cannot see Him, then indeed He sees you." (Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim).

Really? Then why did Fazlur Rehman also say that the Sufis (he is talking about the original sufis here, before Al Ghazali), in order to justify their stand, formulated (ie. verbally invented) statements, sometimes quite fanciful and historically completely fictitious, which they attributed to the Prophet.”

It is known that sufi sometimes depend on some "weak" hadiths to support their speech. Yet, all Muslims scholars say that there is no harm in depending on "weak" hadiths if those hadiths are encouraging about good morals.

Besides, that quote of Fazlur Rehman is not clear. It is not supporetd with proofs so I can reply to it.
​

 

[dailogue is the best]

Also think about how you can possibly accept something which is "based" on the Quran when you have the QURAN itself right in front of you?

I think here you forgot the "not" before "based". Was it just a coincidence ?

Did you also know that it is a fact that most of the ahadith which the Sufis rely on are not even found in the major hadith collections.

I explained this before.

The 'Ulama have sometimes used weak Ahadith for moral and spiritual (fada'il) matters. It is important that when one uses a weak Hadith for any reason then one should explain it to the people that this is weak Hadith and it is being used for this particular reason.

Source: 52 Weak Ahadith

Spencer Trimmingham said: "[Sufis’] beliefs have been refuted, their practices condemned, their dervishes ridiculed and occasionally executed, and their shaikhs castigated.”

What's new in that? Even prophets and messengers peace be upon them all were refuted and ridiculed?!!

And where EXACTLY in these verses is it stated that it is in our power to "redeem" or "neglect"???

Make comparasion yourself:
[91:6] The earth and Him who sustains it.
[91:7] The soul and Him who created it.
[91:8] Then showed it what is evil and what is good.
[91:9] Successful is one who redeems it.
[91:10] Failing is one who neglects it.

Why there is a change from Him to one? What does this mean to you?

These verses should be taken in context with the following verses:

And whomsoever it is Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto the Surrender, and whomsoever it is His Will to send astray... 6:125

because everything is of God's will. Those who go astray, they go so bc God allows them to go so, and if He wants them to be guided, He can do that so easily. But God lets them bc He asks for willing obedience, not a forced one.

Allah will establish in strength those who believe, with the word that stands firm, in this world and in the Hereafter; but Allah will leave, to stray, those who do wrong: Allah doeth what He willeth.14.027

Look deeply at this verse, c0de. There is a clear link between a cause and a result: cause: "believe", result: "will establish in strenght"/ cause: "those who do wrong" result: "Allah will leave to stray".

"Those before them did (also) devise plots; but in all things the master-planning is Allah's...."

13:42

The meaning: they cant harm you even they try, bc Allah is in master of all. Allah is the protector of the believers.

"Now surely they are in doubt as to the meeting of their Lord; now surely He encompasses all things." 41:54

The same as above: God encompasses all things. God has laws: it may be true that God has allowed for us to choose, but if one choose to harm anyone, He is in control of this situation, and this harm cant touch that person only if He wills.

To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are obedient to Him.

30:26

The word "obedient" comes here as translation to the word "kaanit", which may mean subordinate, dependant. I think that is the right word as the context of the verses is telling of the manifestation of God's power.

There is an English translation which used the term "subservient":
[30:26] To Him belongs everyone in the heavens and the earth; all are subservient to Him.

The point of this verse is not to prove that God has no control of the idol worshipers and their beliefs,

Of course, brother, I didnt mean that...

it merely states the fact that the idol worshipers are astray from the path.

No, brother. The point of the verse isnt to merely state that idol worshipers are astray, but to warn those who blames God/destiny for their crookdenss/being astray.

When we talk about the issue of guidance, we have to take all the verses which talk about guidnace/delusion all together. When God say it is He who guides/lets others go astray, the Quraniv verses us that there are causes of this guidance/delusion.

Causes of delusion:

[2: 258].....Nor doth Allah Give guidance to a people unjust.
[2:264].....And Allah guideth not those who reject faith
[5:108].....for Allah guideth not a rebellious people
[12:52]....and that Allah will never guide the snare of the false ones.
[39:3]....But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.
[40:28]...Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies!
[16:104]....Those who believe not in the Signs of Allah,- Allah will not guide them, and theirs will be a grievous Penalty.

The causes of guidance:
[6:82] "It is those who believe and confuse not their beliefs with wrong - that are (truly) in security, for they are on (right) guidance."
[16:97]Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.
[6:56] Say: "I am forbidden to worship those - others than Allah - whom ye call upon." Say: "I will not follow your wain desires: If I did, I would stray from the path, and be not of the company of those who receive guidance."
[79:40] And for such as had entertained the fear of standing before their Lord's (tribunal) and had restrained (their) soul from lower desires,


That's why, brother, God asks us to work by the causes of guidance to receive guidance from God:
29:69And those who strive in Our (cause),- We will certainly guide them to our Paths: For verily Allah is with those who do right.

How many times in the Quran does God tell the Prophet that he has no power to guide anyone, and that only God gives guidance to who He wills?

I think the above verses answer this question

I meant exactly what I said. And I reject any hadith which claims otherwise. To attribute any influence over God is... well, crazy, frankly.

I agree with you. Just to say that the prophet Muhammad pbuh is "a delivery man" does a lot of unjustice to the prophet pbuh. A delievry man may have no relation with the one who sends him, while the prophet pbuh was of deep realtion and connection with God, and he was God's beloved. Besides, the prophet pbuh's prayers was always accepted. That's why, asking God for something by the love of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is a way that your prayer may be accepted.



[qoute] Nowhere in the Quran am I told to take Ali (ra) as my "imam". And as you know, I dont accept the hadith as a foundation for an argument on Islam.[/quote]

"I"?! are you sure of what you are doing? rejecting hadiths even sahih ones. The prophet Muhammad pbuh said: "Allah will never gather this Ummah in misguidance, Allah's hand is over the jama'ah,.."

Therefore, He created your fitrah, which controlled your inner thoughts before He created you. Therefore, you can not have any choice, as your fate was decided by your "inner thoughts" which are regulated by your fitrah, which was created by God.

Flase. Fitra is simply the inner voice of what is wrong and what is right. Does God force you to follow it? No. God gives you the freedom, and you will receive guidance or not as a result of your decision:follow fitra or not. There is no compulsion in that.

[quite] Wrong. No one "earns" anything. And thinking like this fuels spiritual pride.[/quote]

I know no one that comes closer to God, and feels of spiritual pride because the closer you get to God, the more you know how you cant stand without Him, how you are dependant on Him, how you are nothing without Him. The fitra is created by Him, the messangers and the prophets were sent by Him, and the help to educate one's self is given by Him. That person has just chosen and decided to follow God's path earnestly and devoutely as God wants him to choose.

You think the only way to build a relationship with Allah is to try and "earn" purity?

Purity in all its aspects: in heart, with creation, in prayers. But I believe that heart is the key as the prophet Muhammad pbuh said. It should be the starting point. Heart is God's house, and when you start cleaning it, you start to recieve God's closeness and inspiration.​

 

[c0de]

@ DITB

I told you before: read their writings. Their writing is decisive proof of their spiritual status. What you find in their writings about spirituality show the divine knowledge God bestowed on them..

Your case rests on complete subjectivity. For example: a sunni sufi will find fault with a shia sufi’s writings. So it is not “decisive proof” at all, is it?

Your argument is still invalid.

Sufi masters believe that whoever excels you in morals, ethics,akhlak, then he/she excels you in religion. /

Heart is God's house, and when you start cleaning it, you start to recieve God's closeness and inspiration

Clearly contradicted by the fact that some very corrupt politicians can have very good manners or that a serial killer can be a perfect son and good neighbor. The fact is that Ikhlas, prayers, charity, all of these things can be faked for show. You have no way of verifying a person’s heart, let alone his “closeness” to God.

And if you deny their friendship to God, then you cant deny their love to God for whom they uproot the love of this worldlife and find their paradise only in with living with Him..//

Moroever, brother, sufism in its broad meaning is about all the good morals and ethics. If one is with good akhlak/morals, then he/she is sufi taking the word in its broad meaning

What I am denying is your ability to verify their love for God or their status with Him. They might very well be close to God, but the fact is you have no way of verifying it.

Think about this: If someone doesn’t know mathematics can he judge the validity of a mathematical proof? How would he even know what to look for? The same applies to this. How can a novice, (who is, by this very definition, farther from God) supposed to judge his “master” (who is supposed to be closer to God)? How does the novice even know what to look for? So even the idea itself doesn’t make sense. And herein lies the real problem the novice has no choice but to take the claim of the master on faith.

This is exactly how priestly classes developed in all other religions! And what all the Prophets came to warn against: i.e. > the institutionalization of religion which always leads to shirk and corruption of the soul<

This quotation shows nothing. What if Hinduism and sufism almost are the same?! Where is the fault

The “fault” sister is that Hinduism is exactly what the Prophet came to reject! How do you think the caste system in Hinduism developed? It is the slavish obedience to “masters” that eventually leads to total shirk. All the pretense of “oneness of humanity” makes little sense if you are classifying people based on their supposed closeness to God! It is the source of the worst form of prejudice and bigotry! And this is what leads man to spiritual slavery to other men and idols! This is the root of institutionalization of religion.

By the way, c0de, you have no proof that taking a spiritual master

Actually, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim that something exists (like proof for a practice in the Quran), not on the one who is saying that it doesnt. You are the one who has to prove that there is support for taking spiritual masters. So far, you have failed in doing so. And since your entire argument rests on this one basic point: to prove the validity of your sheikhs as spiritual masters, by verifying their “closeness” to God, the rest of your points become pointless… But lets deal with them anyway.

Yet, all Muslims scholars say that there is no harm in depending on "weak" hadiths if those hadiths are encouraging about good morals.

That is not what Fazlur Rehman said. He said that the Sufis were using the weak ahadith to “justify their stand”. And here was cemented the downfall of the Muslims...

Consider the comedy of the situation. A priestly class develops, and in order to justify itself it tells people that it is okay to depend on weak hadiths, and the people actually accept it! This is exactly how priestly classes developed in other religions! Damned are the leaders and the lead!

What's new in that? Even prophets and messengers peace be upon them all were refuted and ridiculed?!!

Did those prophets claim they were God Himself? Because some of these sufis ended up doing exactly that. They claimed they had “let go” of their self and become “one” with “God”. Cases like these are well known.

Fitra is simply the inner voice of what is wrong and what is right. Does God force you to follow it? No. God gives you the freedom, and you will receive guidance or not as a result of your decision:follow fitra or not. There is no compulsion in that.

it may be true that God has allowed for us to choose, but if one choose to harm anyone, He is in control of this situation, and this harm cant touch that person only if He wills..

And how does one choose to restrain himself against his inner thoughts/fitrah?
Patience. But this is a circular argument because according to the Quran:

016.127
And do thou be patient, for thy patience is but from Allah;
nor grieve over them: and distress not thyself because of their plots.​

Make comparasion yourself:
[91:6] The earth and Himwho sustains it.
[91:7] The soul and Himwho created it.
[91:8] Then showed it what is evil and what is good.
[91:9] Successful is one who redeems it.
[91:10] Failing is one who neglects it.

Why there is a change from Him to one? What does this mean to you?

This passage further weakens your own argument. Look closely: the words "sustains" and "created" are the causes. The words "redeems" and "neglects" are effects. While “successful” and “failing” cannot be causes at all, since they cannot precede redemption and neglect.

Look deeply at this verse, c0de. There is a clear link between a cause and a result: cause: "believe", result: "will establish in strenght"/ cause: "those who do wrong" result: "Allah will leave to stray".

The problem with your causality argument here is that you do not provide a cause for "believe" that is supported by the verse. My argument says that the cause is God. Your argument says that it is innate in man. My argument is supported by the very verse itself: "but Allah will leave, to stray, those who do wrong"(showing the ultimate cause is God) While your argument finds no support anywhere in the verse. That is the difference.

That's why, brother, God asks us to work by the causes of guidance to receive guidance from God:
29:69And those who strive in Our (cause),- We will certainly guide them to our Paths: For verily Allah is with those who do right.
I think the above verses answer this question

Another argument from causality that doesn’t work. Your "causes" of delusion and guidance are actually descriptions of the people who are guided or deluded. And no, those verses do not answer my question, but further amplify it against you.

Besides, the prophet pbuh's prayers was always accepted.

Wrong. God has stated in the Quran that the prayers of the Prophet for the disbelievers and hypocrites are useless, because God decides who is guided and how. How many times in the Quran is the same said of other Prophets who asked their own wives, or children or relations to be guided and God said the same to them?

Also, how many sons and daughters did the Prophet loose in childbirth? You think he had not prayed for their lives, that they had lived? What about the battle of Uhud? You think the Prophet had not prayed for victory? How then, did we lose on that day?

A delievry man may have no relation with the one who sends him,

A delivery man has the relation of a messenger, which is all the Prophet ever claimed to be. He never said I am a "friend" of God and that is why you should follow me or claimed that God always listens to his prayers. All of these ideas were invented later. The Prophet was aware of his own complete nothingness in front of God. He was HUMBLE! Unlike these sufi masters.

But God lets them bc He asks for willing obedience, not a forced one.

Is there anywhere in the Quran where it is stated that anyone can go against God's will? No one can go against Allah’s will, therefore there can never any truly be any disobedience in an absolute sense.

The meaning: they cant harm you even they try, bc Allah is in master of all. Allah is the protector of the believers.

No, the meaning is exactly what it says: In ALL THINGS, the MASTER PLANNING is Allah's.

The word "obedient" comes here as translation to the word "kaanit", which may mean subordinate, dependant.

Great, but that doesnt change the meaning of the verse at all.

No, brother. The point of the verse isnt to merely state that idol worshipers are astray, but to warn those who blames God/destiny for their crookdenss/being astray.

Then why doesn’t God contradict the saying of the idol-worshippers?

re you sure of what you are doing? rejecting hadiths even sahih ones. The prophet Muhammad pbuh said: "Allah will never gather this Ummah in misguidance, Allah's hand is over the jama'ah,.."

I have debated this topic with brother Abdallah before. #1: sahih hadiths contradict other sahih hadiths. For example the hadith in which the Prophet says that after 3 generations the muslims are "not of me, and I am not of them" clearly says that the Prophet did not even consider the ummah a "Muslim" ummah after only 3 generations! This hadith clearly contradicts the one you cited.

 

[Netti-Netti]

c0de,

How can you possibly ascribe any "purity" to your heart?

It's just a linguistic issue isn't it? G-d is doing the purification. We think it's us or we talk about it as though it's us because it's happening to us. And then the language we use to talk about it fools us.

Personally, I don't think the words a persons uses are always an inadequate basis for judging the validity of that person's religious experience. Even if words did provide a basis, only G-d knows what's true. The words are not the reality. The map is not the territory.

And if the experience is not valid, it may just be G-d's way of showing the path and enabling appreciation for the Truth. Doing it wrong is how we humans learn how to do it right. We need to do it wrong to discover right guidance. The main thing is the sincerity of the soul's longing. Only G-d knows how sincere that is.

 

[nativeastral]

The Prophet was aware of his own complete nothingness in front of God. He was HUMBLE! Unlike these sufi masters.

Is there anywhere in the Quran where it is stated that anyone can go against God's will? No one can go against Allah’s will, therefore there can never any truly be any disobedience in an absolute sense.

No, the meaning is exactly what it says: In ALL THINGS, the MASTER PLANNING is Allah's.

l thought that dhikr was a striving towards that 'nothingness' therefore humbleness? lf in all things the master plannning is Allahs then where is the problem?

'When my Beloved appears,
With what eye do I see Him?

With His eye, not with mine,
For none sees Him except Himself.'
Ibn Arabi


When My Beloved Appears &mdash; Poet Seers

 

[c0de]

.

Netti + Native




@ Netti

I agree, in fact as I said before (somewhere on this thread) God guides even through misguidance. The reason I called her on this specific point was just to draw her attention to the sufi ideology that she has absorbed. Check out this verse though:

17.046
[FONT=&quot]The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory:
there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet ye understand not how
they declare His glory. Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving.[/FONT]
​

@ Native

Since the master planning is God's so by definition there is no problem. We're all doing exactly what we are supposed to be doing.

 

[Netti-Netti]

The reason I called her on this specific point was just to draw her attention to the sufi ideology that she has absorbed. Check out this verse though:

17.046
[FONT=&quot]The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory:

[/FONT]​

Yes, but the Koran encourages believers to seek guidance from those He has blessed:

1. In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2. Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the world;
3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
6. Show us the straight way,
7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
​

(Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation

My reading: the believer is to seek guidance ("Show us the straight way"). The guidance would be given by a teacher who is from " those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace." Because of the context, it almost sounds like a a kind of religious duty to seek guidance.

The criteria by which to tell who is the right teacher may seem vague, but the need to seek guidance seems clear.