SufiPhilosophy
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Modern commentators fill the internet about the pagan symbolism underlying Christianity. I guess Muslims thought so too from the outset.
Spiritual Side to Islam ?
- Thread starter GlorytoGod
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Modern commentators fill the internet about the pagan symbolism underlying Christianity. I guess Muslims thought so too from the outset.
Who worships the cross? Worship? The moon wanes and the stars set? That's ok?
SufiPhilosophy
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Nope not okay. We don't actually have any symbols. The star and crescent was a later addition, l think it was adapted from the pagan Turks and they kept it after converting to Islam. I wrote about it on another thread. The Turks came to dominate Islam.
It was already the symbol of Christian Istanbul and the Roman navy and many many other places and institutions. It was as ubiquitous as the cross i guess. No symbols in Islam as far as l'm aware though.
It was already the symbol of Christian Istanbul and the Roman navy and many many other places and institutions. It was as ubiquitous as the cross i guess. No symbols in Islam as far as l'm aware though.
SufiPhilosophy
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Quote from Qur'an:
006.076 When the night grew dark upon him he beheld a star. He said: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: I love not things that set.
006.077 And when he saw the moon uprising, he exclaimed: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: Unless my Lord guide me, I surely shall become one of the folk who are astray.
006.078 And when he saw the sun uprising, he cried: This is my Lord! This is greater! And when it set he exclaimed: O my people! Lo! I am free from all that ye associate (with Him).
I read it. However, when all the fudge is over, it would appear that Islam regards the cross as anathema mainly because it symbolises Christianity?
SufiPhilosophy
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No ... it is because of the pagan sun symbolism, especially considering the sun rises and sets between the horns of satan and those times were quite dear to the pagans.
Christianity was adopted by very powerful pagans that made it amenable to their old pagan ways, through various councils.
Qur'an 5:82 Condemns Judaism and then states ".... thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud."
There's a lot here about the veracity of that. I will try link some threads later ...
@Thomas may be of assistance?
SufiPhilosophy
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Ok but can we agree:
1. Cross is a pagan solar symbol, whether it found its way into Christianity or not
2. Muslims consider sun worship to be anathema, to extent that they won't even pray at sunrise, high noon and sunset
3. Christianity adopted the Cross when it became the state religion of the Eastern Romans, who had previously been pagan Romans
The point is that we dodge the cross not because we hate Christianity but because solar worship is anathema to us, such that we won't even pray at times once loved by the pagans for their prayers (sunrise, high noon, sunset).
No. The cross was a Christian symbol from earliest times. Christ died upon the cross. The whole Constantine Sol Invitus story is half-truth at best. I'm on way to work now. If you search under 'Constantine/Nicea' some material should come up.
https://www.interfaith.org/communit...ser][0]=20442&c[user][1]=19373&c[user][2]=359
Best wishes
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SufiPhilosophy
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OK thank you. Yep i know Christ was said to have been crucified too. But look at the Swastika, it is a stylised cross and was ubiquitous throughout the world, from the Americas to Japan to Finland to Ireland to the Middle East (?) to India.
Whatever people say about the Swastika as a pagan symbol of peace, i don't think good things happen when the swastika appears.
The swastika is the ancient Eastern antahkarana, figure-of-eight symbol of the interaction between spirit and nature.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antahkarana
The Taoist yin/yang symbol is the same thing
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang
Just saying, lol
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SufiPhilosophy
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Hi there, these other symbols don't have a cross at their core. I am making the connection between cross, paganism, swastika, sun.
The swastika is a stylised cross was used as a pagan sun symbol.
I see no reason to change that statement.
Moroever, sun worship is anathema to us, and perhaps this is why the swastika / cross in any form, are anathema to us.
I see no reason to change that statement.
You can show me a triangle if you like and call it the original square. Might as well.
SufiPhilosophy
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By the way, l actually agree that the swastika and trisquelle are related. I could show you a video if you want. But it goes beyond the point l'm making.
Hi @SufiPhilosophy –
Certainly the cross was not a common symbol, but then there are a number of valid arguments for why. But the cross was a significant symbol in Christian texts, and the staurogram: ⳨ was in use by the early 2nd century.
The Christian 'seal' of marking a cross on the forehead was a common practice by at least the late first century. The Epistle of Barnabas talks of 'the water and the cross', and the making of a cross on the forehead and/or chest was believed to preserve against evil. However, by the 2nd century Christians were being accused of a cult of the cross, it would appear, and defended themselves against pagan misunderstanding, according to Tertullian, Cyprian, Justin and others.
Irenaeus of Lyon, writing about 180AD, said this of the Cross:
"Now seeing that He (Jesus) is the Word of God Almighty, who in unseen wise in our midst is universally extended in all the world, and encompasses its length and breadth and height and depth – for by the Word of God the whole universe is ordered and disposed – in it is crucified the Son of God, inscribed crosswise upon it all: for it is right that He being made visible, should set upon all things visible the sharing of His cross, that He might show His operation on visible things through a visible form. For He it is who illuminates the height, that is the heavens; and encompasses the deep which is beneath the earth; and stretches and spreads out the length from east to west; and steers across the breadth of north and south; summoning all that are scattered in every quarter to the knowledge of the Father." (Demonstration of the Apostolic Teaching, 34)
I offer this only to indicate that from very early, the cross was seen as something far more than a solar sign.
Constantine, pragmatic as ever, no doubt saw the chance of killing two birds with one stone, as it were, of utilising a symbol that had, for different reasons, a similar unifying ideal.
OK...
OK.
I don't think so. It's a common thread on the web, one among many to infer that Christianity was substantially changed in the Constantine era.
Certainly the cross was not a common symbol, but then there are a number of valid arguments for why. But the cross was a significant symbol in Christian texts, and the staurogram: ⳨ was in use by the early 2nd century.
The Christian 'seal' of marking a cross on the forehead was a common practice by at least the late first century. The Epistle of Barnabas talks of 'the water and the cross', and the making of a cross on the forehead and/or chest was believed to preserve against evil. However, by the 2nd century Christians were being accused of a cult of the cross, it would appear, and defended themselves against pagan misunderstanding, according to Tertullian, Cyprian, Justin and others.
OK. The symbol of the cross, for Christians, derives from the Cross of Christ, the sign of salvation and the means of redemption, rather than pagan solar worship.
Irenaeus of Lyon, writing about 180AD, said this of the Cross:
"Now seeing that He (Jesus) is the Word of God Almighty, who in unseen wise in our midst is universally extended in all the world, and encompasses its length and breadth and height and depth – for by the Word of God the whole universe is ordered and disposed – in it is crucified the Son of God, inscribed crosswise upon it all: for it is right that He being made visible, should set upon all things visible the sharing of His cross, that He might show His operation on visible things through a visible form. For He it is who illuminates the height, that is the heavens; and encompasses the deep which is beneath the earth; and stretches and spreads out the length from east to west; and steers across the breadth of north and south; summoning all that are scattered in every quarter to the knowledge of the Father." (Demonstration of the Apostolic Teaching, 34)
I offer this only to indicate that from very early, the cross was seen as something far more than a solar sign.
Constantine, pragmatic as ever, no doubt saw the chance of killing two birds with one stone, as it were, of utilising a symbol that had, for different reasons, a similar unifying ideal.
I think because the basic symbolism is universal?
The solar cross, which is, as you point out, ubiquitous, I would have thought deriving from the fact that there is one sun than determines the four seasons, etc. while the astrological/astronomical symbol is the circle with a dot in its centre.
What I mean is such symbols arose from the observation of nature, and do not necessarily rely on transmission from a single source.
SufiPhilosophy
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Right so the points stand:
The swastika is a stylised cross was used as a pagan sun symbol.
I see no reason to change that statement.
Moroever, sun worship is anathema to us, and perhaps this is why the swastika / cross in any form, are anathema to us.
I see no reason to change that statement.
And so that is why, although l liked Ahanu's cross symbolism here: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/11945/#post-211444
... l had to explain that the cross is anathema to us and so l ultimately dislike Ahanus analysis of Surah Fateha.
SufiPhilosophy
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Nope, it's because of this video at these points:
and
54:26
which brings together the star and crescent, the cross (which is often the star within the crescent btw) and other major religious symbols. Basically every major symbol you see today and in ancient culture too. Nothing to do with aliens by the way, it's just poetic licence.
SufiPhilosophy
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Unknown how long ago this happened, or even if it really happened the way the video portrays but you have to admit it's absolute genius!