Spiritual Side to Islam ?

[SufiPhilosophy]

Just something on symbols — rites perform the same function as a symbol (old hands here will know I'm quite into the less obvious aspect of the meaning of 'symbol', especially in its mystical application), so washing hands, kneeling in prayer, facing a particular direction ... all have symbolic value.

As for the pagan origin of the crescent and the star, I'd say it has nevertheless now been absorbed into Moslem culture and functions as a symbol of Islam.

Hello, l'm back just for this. I consider the topic to have maxed out because l asked for, and found, no meaningful evidence of symbols in Islam, as l was quite certain all along, as it is my religion.

I'll put my response in a bullet list:

1. I probably don't need to state this as it's not about the person but l don't don't have an issue with symbols in fact l like pondering over them.
2. I have searched for and found no evidence of symbols in Islam.
3. You say rituals have symbolic value. OK but rituals are more correctly termed, well, rituals.
4. I have pointed out that even the letters of the alphabet are symbols if we're going to be so exacting
5. Thus, in a meaningful sense, there are no symbols in Islam, but if we are going to be exacting, then we don't even need to drag rituals into it, we could just say, as l proposed, that every letter in scripture is a symbol. But then the discussion loses any meaning. To me at least. Reductio ad absurdum in the sense that your point was fairly reduced to absurdity (shown to be specious, red herring), not the logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum where an argument is reduced with absurdity.
6. By symbols in Islam l am clearly talking about Islam per se, as in, the religion, the actual religion as it was completed in the Qur'an and by the farewell sermon of the Prophet. It is a red herring logical fallacy to talk about symbols of Muslims, when l refer to symbols of Islam. Muslims and Islam aren't even grammatically the same term.

A Muslim will likely have a symbol for garment care on their various items of clothing. I know this. Reductio ad absurdum in the sense that your argument was reduced to absurdity (shown to be specious, red herring).


I don't know why the non-Muslims are so intent on proving me wrong here. It would be more graceful to just admit you were wrong in your assertions.

I would appreciate a graceful or at least a formal response.

Please don't do the obvious e.g. wrangle with me on another thread and force me to address the OP there by name in some weird act of humiliation. Or lock the thread, there that'll teach me. Be amazing.

You gave us this Islamic subforum. Thank you. Please, don't use it to trample our beliefs without cause. I am a little concerned as l've seen what you and your coreligionists dish out on other subforums to my coreligionists (talking down to them, characteristic passive aggression or alternatiing passiveness and aggression, then the horrid distorted orientalist historiography). It's uncivil.

Imagine if l merely stated the facts about the Bible. Let alone assiduously twist, twist, pull, peck, pull, twist twist at the facts like a magpie having at a window latch, as you guys do on here over the most innocuous detail of my religion. I don't even need to do that, l could just state the facts of what the Bible says. Yeah you know, that part. And yes, l know about that other part too. And the rest. I've seen it all friend. But l am kind, l want to like you. Not be liked, l don't care about that, but l want to like you, so l spare you. Spare me and my religion this drivel, please?

 

[RJM]

The point is that we dodge the cross not because we hate Christianity but because solar worship is anathema to us, such that we won't even pray at times once loved by the pagans for their prayers (sunrise, high noon, sunset).

But the cross is a Christian symbol, not a solar worship symbol. That it what it means nowadays. To break the cross means to break Christianity. The cross does not signify a solar worship cult. Do you accept that?

The moon and stars also set, but you do not 'dodge' that symbol -- you allow it on your clothes, etc?

I do accept this is an Islam forum. They are just questions. Believe me, Christians have been subjected to a barrage on the Christian and interfaith forums.

 

[RJM]

The point is that we dodge the cross not because we hate Christianity but because solar worship is anathema to us, such that we won't even pray at times once loved by the pagans for their prayers (sunrise, high noon, sunset).

But the cross is a Christian symbol, not a solar worship symbol. That it what it means nowadays. To break the cross means to break Christianity. The cross does not signify a solar worship cult. Do you accept that?

The moon and stars also set, but you do not 'dodge' that symbol -- you allow it as the halaal symbol on your clothes, etc? You do not reject that it is commonly accepted as the symbol of Islam. You do not shun it. Do you see the problem?

I do accept this is an Islam forum. They are just questions. Believe me, Christians have been subjected to a relentless barrage against their beliefs recently on the Christian and interfaith forums.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The moon and stars also set, but you do not 'dodge' that symbol -- you allow it on your clothes, etc?

During the 5th century, it was present in coins minted by the Persian Sassanian Empire, the symbol was represented in the coins minted across the empire throughout the middle east for more than 400 years from the 3rd century until the fall of the Sassanians after the Muslim conquest of Persia in the 7th century. The conquering Muslim rulers kept the symbol in their coinage, especially during the early years of the caliphate, and further popularized it. It is hence often considered as a symbol of Islam by extension.
- wiki -

Does "the star and crescent" represent Islam? No, not at all.
Does anybody think that Muslims worship the heavenly ornaments? Does the Qur'an tell us to do that?

As @SufiPhilosophy says, the 'Ottoman' Empire adopted it .. it's something to do with ancient history of Byzantium / Persia.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

But the cross is a Christian symbol, not a solar worship symbol. That it what it means nowadays. To break the cross means to break Christianity. The cross does not signify a solar worship cult. Do you accept that?

The moon and stars also set, but you do not 'dodge' that symbol -- you allow it on your clothes, etc? Do you see the problem?

I do accept this is an Islam forum. They are just questions. Believe me, Christians have been subjected to a relentless barrage against their beliefs recently on the Christian and interfaith forums.

OK here's a recap:

1. This is a sideshow and l have no idea how it relates to the thread
2. The cross is a solar symbol, it could also be a crucifix, l admit. It could also be the blades of a windmill. It could be the marking on a bun etc. OK correction: the cross can be a solar symbol.
3. We abhor sun worship to the extent that we avoid praying at sunrise, high noon and sunset, as these were times hallowed by pagans, and also we even believe the sun rises and sets between the horns of Satan.
4. There's no such practice of Moon or planet worship that l'm aware of (l mean, l'm sure they were worshipped but we aren't told to avoid a prayer time because the pagans loved to worship the moon or planets at that time). I'm not even sure the extent that the pagans worshipped stars. But all we are told about is sun worship in the tradition l'm citing.
5. Ultimately, we avoid the cross because we are told to. I have found no hadith for it though, only the islamqa site with some minor personalities admonishing against use of a cross. Maybe a cross is okay, in hindsight but considering the pagan connotation with sun worship, i'll still avoid it.
6. Also, we don't believe in the crucifixion, sorry. In fact in the Qur'an, God is in contempt of the idea that Christ could have been crucified, although l believe many many prophets had been murdered in the past, throughout the entire world, and Biblical prophets too. But God finds it deplorable that it should happen to Messiah, l guess because Messiah has a set purpose and won't be thwarted in that.
7. So therefore, another reason we dont like the cross.
8. The cross as a pagan symbol need not be the basic cross used in Christian crucifixes, it could be a swastika too. The swastika is a pagan sun symbol. It is a variant of a cross, in that it is, at its core, a cross. That's self evident and l cannot debate it btw. it's just objectively true, l don't get how you offer me a trisquelle and tell me that too is a swastika. Admittedly l reckon both are linked but that's even further down rabbit hole.
9. Another Muslim pointed out later that the cross might just be anathema to us because of the crufixion doctrine and when Christ returns he'll abolish its adoration, and he'll metaphorically kill pigs too. Coming to think of it, l think he'll still physically kill pigs becuase now that nobody will eat them, they'll run wild and destroy crops so best kill em.

Have a nice day.

 

[muhammad_isa]

To break the cross means to break Christianity.

..break the misconceptions .. yes.
Would you accept what Jesus, the son of Mary, teaches you when he returns?

..I mean, what if we get hundreds of Christian witnesses that say they saw "the glory of the Lord shine round"
and Jesus descending from heaven.
Do you really think that Jesus will suddenly be a different person, and not confirm what he has reported to have said in the Gospel?

 

[RJM]

l don't get how you offer me a trisquelle

Yes. I stand corrected there. The antahkarana is indeed a trisquelle, not a swastika. But I did mean to reference the swastika as an ancient Hindu symbol that was not essentially meant a symbol of sun worship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#:~:text=The word swastika comes from,or tantric aspects of Kali.

So I do apologise for the error

 

[Thomas]

l asked for, and found, no meaningful evidence of symbols in Islam, as l was quite certain all along, as it is my religion.

Oh, apologies, I missed that aspect. Generally, I agree with you. No offence meant.

I don't know why the non-Muslims are so intent on proving me wrong here. It would be more graceful to just admit you were wrong in your assertions.

LOL, you need to be less defensive. I, for one, was not trying to prove anyone wrong.

 

[RJM]

OK here's a recap:

1. This is a sideshow and l have no idea how it relates to the thread
2. The cross is a solar symbol, it could also be a crucifix, l admit. It could also be the blades of a windmill. It could be the marking on a bun etc. OK correction: the cross can be a solar symbol.
3. We abhor sun worship to the extent that we avoid praying at sunrise, high noon and sunset, as these were times hallowed by pagans, and also we even believe the sun rises and sets between the horns of Satan.
4. There's no such practice of Moon or planet worship that l'm aware of (l mean, l'm sure they were worshipped but we aren't told to avoid a prayer time because the pagans loved to worship the moon or planets at that time). I'm not even sure the extent that the pagans worshipped stars. But all we are told about is sun worship in the tradition l'm citing.
5. Ultimately, we avoid the cross because we are told to. I have found no hadith for it though, only the islamqa site with some minor personalities admonishing against use of a cross. Maybe a cross is okay, in hindsight but considering the pagan connotation with sun worship, i'll still avoid it.
6. Also, we don't believe in the crucifixion, sorry. In fact in the Qur'an, God is in contempt of the idea that Christ could have been crucified, although l believe many many prophets had been murdered in the past, throughout the entire world, and Biblical prophets too. But God finds it deplorable that it should happen to Messiah, l guess because Messiah has a set purpose and won't be thwarted in that.
7. So therefore, another reason we dont like the cross.
8. The cross as a pagan symbol need not be the basic cross used in Christian crucifixes, it could be a swastika too. The swastika is a pagan sun symbol. It is a variant of a cross, in that it is, at its core, a cross. That's self evident and l cannot debate it btw. it's just objectively true, l don't get how you offer me a trisquelle and tell me that too is a swastika. Admittedly l reckon both are linked but that's even further down rabbit hole.
9. Another Muslim pointed out later that the cross might just be anathema to us because of the crufixion doctrine and when Christ returns he'll abolish its adoration, and he'll metaphorically kill pigs too. Coming to think of it, l think he'll still physically kill pigs becuase now that nobody will eat them, they'll run wild and destroy crops so best kill em.

Have a nice day.

Thanks for this, by the way. Your straightforward honesty and lack of condescension is appreciated and refreshing.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

Thanks for this, by the way. Your straightforward honesty and lack of condescension is appreciated and refreshing.

Yep it's typical to find humility and honesty among the Muslims. We are not guaranteed salvation (fair play to you though it's a nice idea to promise onesself paradise, what could possibly go wrong?) so we self evaluate. We are chivalrous, we are gentlemen. The evil others speak of our prophets and saints tells me what is in their own hearts. The Bible even says that people have always been evil to prophets, but then its adherents continue in the same vein, no irony.

We had a caliph called Umar ibn Khattab. He used to be a sportsman and a well to do notable among the Quraysh clan but gave it all up to be a despised follower of the Prophet (peace be upon him) (after being the Prophet's sworn enemy). He one day became Caliph and at his inauguration, insisted that a group volunteer to kill him if he ever abused his own power. He even gave his own dear son capital punishment for breaking the law and not repenting of it. He gave Christians a huge amnesty after defeating them. He allowed the Jews back into Palestine.

But over on the Christian forum they call him "a warlord" and type all sorts of evil about him. I guess we'll have to wait to see if salvation is assured for people that abuse and abuse.

 

[Ahanu]

Spiritual aspect is known as Sufism or Irfan.

Seriously nice insight but crosses are explicitly anathema to us.

Not the impression I got from reading Seyyed Hossein Nasr. Sorry, I have been busy lately, so I haven't been keeping up with posts.

 

[SufiPhilosophy]

Yes. I stand corrected there. The antahkarana is indeed a trisquelle, not a swastika. But I did mean to reference the swastika as an ancient Hindu symbol that was not essentially meant a symbol of sun worship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#:~:text=The word swastika comes from,or tantric aspects of Kali.

So I do apologise for the error

By the way, l actually knew this all along but decided not to call you out for it but as l am leaving, let me point out that you are knowingly misleading. Here is what the article you have quoted literally says:

"In Hinduism, the right-facing symbol (卐) is called swastika, symbolizing surya ("sun"),"

You cannot have missed that.

 

[RJM]

By the way, l actually knew this all along but decided not to call you out for it but as l am leaving, let me point out that you are knowingly misleading. Here is what the article you have quoted literally says:

"In Hinduism, the right-facing symbol (卐) is called swastika, symbolizing surya ("sun"),"

You cannot have missed that.

Amongst other things, in the sense the sun symbolizes light, against the left-facing 'Kali' symbol for darkness. It's not sun worship. Hindus are not sun worshippers. They do not worship the sun as a deity. It is one sentence in context in an extended article, and I think the only sentence where the sun is mentioned, though I could be wrong:

Swastika Symbol

"The swastika symbol, 卐 (right-facing or clockwise) or 卍 (left-facing, counterclockwise, or sauwastika), is an ancient religious icon in the cultures of Eurasia. It is used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions, including Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.[1][2][3]

In the Western world, it was a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck until the 1930s[4] when the right-facing tilted form became a feature of Nazi symbolism as an emblem of the Aryan race. As a result of World War II and the Holocaust, many people in the West still strongly associate it with Nazism and antisemitism.[5][6] The swastika continues to be used as a symbol of good luck and prosperity in Hindu, Buddhist and Jain countries such as Nepal, India, Mongolia, China and Japan. It is also commonly used in Hindu marriage ceremonies.

The word swastika comes from Sanskrit: स्वस्तिक, romanized: svastika, meaning "conducive to well-being".[7][8] In Hinduism, the right-facing symbol (卐) is called swastika, symbolizing surya ("sun"), prosperity and good luck, while the left-facing symbol (卍) is called sauwastika, symbolising night or tantric aspects of Kali.[8] In Jainism, a swastika is the symbol for Suparshvanatha – the seventh of 24 Tirthankaras (spiritual teachers and saviours), while in Buddhism it symbolises the auspicious footprints of the Buddha.[8][9][10] In several major Indo-European religions, the swastika symbolises lightning bolts, representing the thunder god and the king of the gods, such as Indra in Vedic Hinduism, Zeus in the ancient Greek religion, Jupiter in the ancient Roman religion, and Thor in the ancient Germanic religion.[11]

The swastika is an icon which is widely found in both human history and the modern world.[12][8] In various forms, it is otherwise known (in various European languages) as the fylfot, gammadion, tetraskelion, or cross cramponnée (a term in Anglo-Norman heraldry); German: Hakenkreuz; French: croix gammée; Italian: croce uncinata. In Mongolian it is called Хас (khas) and mainly used in seals. In Chinese it is called 卍字 (wànzì) meaning "all things symbol", pronounced manji in Japanese, manja (만자) in Korean and vạn tự / chữ vạn in Vietnamese. A swastika generally takes the form of a cross, the arms of which are of equal length and perpendicular to the adjacent arms, each bent midway at a right angle.[13][14] The symbol is found in the archeological remains of the Indus Valley Civilisation[15] and Samarra, as well as in early Byzantine and Christian artwork.[12] …" etc