Why stay a Christian?

wil

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Interesting title to the email I received today. I've been asked this a number of times on this board so I thought the email would be appropriate for discussion.

I've highlighted a couple of lines that may seem interesting to folks.
Karen Hutton from Pleasantville, California, writes:

Is there any purpose in staying a member of a traditional Christian Church if you no longer believe the things the church regards as its core beliefs? Why have you stayed with your church, given your criticisms of many of the basic aspects of Christianity?




Dear Karen,
Before answering that question, we need to identify what it is you are calling "core beliefs" or the "basic aspects of Christianity." I believe that what most people call orthodoxy in religious beliefs is little more than the imposed authority of some part of the Christian faith. The claim to be orthodox in one's belief is not to acknowledge a point of view that is true, but only the point of view that has prevailed. My studies lead me to believe that there never was a single consistent set of Christian beliefs.

There were many Christianities from the dawn of Christianity itself. Various groups have tried to define true Christianity, but when they do they almost always define their own institutional, authoritarian system.

Some people, for example, assert that the historic creeds defined primitive Christianity. The Apostles' Creed, however, began as a series of baptismal formulas in local churches in the third century and these formulas differed widely until they evolved into a single form somewhere between 250 and 290 CE. I doubt if the actual apostles would have recognized much of it.

The Nicene Creed, adopted at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE, was designed primarily to close the loopholes in the Apostles' Creed. The Athanasian Creed, a product of the late fourth century, was designed to close loopholes in the Nicene Creed. The earliest creed of the Church was only three words, Jesus is Messiah. The word "messiah" meant a variety of things to the Jews, so even the three-word creed had wide flexibility.

Others assert that believing in the Virgin Birth is a "core doctrine" of Christianity, but scholars can now demonstrate quite conclusively that both Paul and Mark seem never to have heard of it; and John, who was among the last writers in the New Testament, appears to have specifically rejected it since he refers to Jesus on two occasions as the "son of Joseph."

Still others suggest that the physical resurrection of Jesus is the essential core belief of Christianity, but I think I can demonstrate that Paul did not believe the resurrection was physical, and neither did Mark. Matthew is ambivalent. It is Luke and John, the last two gospels to be written, that interpret the resurrection as a physical resuscitation of a deceased body. So determining what the "core beliefs" of Christianity are is not as easy as people seem to think.

Some, usually in evangelical or in the conservative Catholic traditions, argue that doctrines like the Incarnation, the Atonement and the Trinity set the boundaries around essential Christianity, but once again these doctrines were not fully developed until the third and fourth centuries and it would be difficult to demonstrate that either Paul or Mark were Trinitarians.

My point is that Christianity has always been a movement and that most churches have simply frozen Christianity at fairly primitive levels. It is not to oppose basic Christianity that is the agenda of Christian scholars; it is to seek truth through the Christian story or through the Christian lens.

That is what keeps me active in church life. Christianity is not static or doctrinal. It is a pathway we walk into the mystery of God. I grant that it is easier to walk the Christ path in some churches than in others, but true Christianity is always evolving into what it can be; its purpose is not to protect what it has been. So I would suggest that for you to see your role in your church to be that of a change agent, you are in fact being a true worshiper of Christ.

I hope this helps. I think institutional Christianity needs people like you and me in it.
– John Shelby Spong​
 
I would have stuck that in my junk mail bin.. *shrug* Not worth it to me to argue the same drivel for the millionth time on this forum.

Passing on this one
 
Namaste FS,

He's just talkin about what's in the book, vs. what people say is in the book.

(note: we've only had 72,000 posts in the Abrahamic forum....so we've got a long way to go before we get to a million on any topic!)
 
Interesting title to the email I received today. I've been asked this a number of times on this board so I thought the email would be appropriate for discussion.

i thought you were a Hindu :confused:
 
i thought you were a Hindu :confused:
he is? ohh .. that explains it. :p
Explains...?? Nope never been a Hindu. A friend of mine married one, I thoroughly enjoy his mother in laws food. And heck I respect Gandhi's words. But I am a follower of Jesus...much to the chagrine of others.

What I do work on in my life and my belief is openess and the willingness to expose and admit issues. Its these things that others like to pick at. However once it is exposed and still acceptable...it is no longer an issue and folks can no longer pick at it.

Hence the reason most Atheists are orthodox literalists...tis easy that way.
 
Gee Wil, and I thought it was the feminists that were after you !!! :D
 
Still others suggest that the physical resurrection of Jesus is the essential core belief of Christianity, but I think I can demonstrate that Paul did not believe the resurrection was physical, and neither did Mark. Matthew is ambivalent. It is Luke and John, the last two gospels to be written, that interpret the resurrection as a physical resuscitation of a deceased body. So determining what the "core beliefs" of Christianity are is not as easy as people seem to think.

The more I read Paul, the more I believe otherwise.

"I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been growning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8: 18-23)

This is sometime in the future. At the time of putting on the resurrected body, suffering ends. Paul is saying he has not attained the resurrected body yet. What ya have to say about his words here?
 
We are a part of something huge....vast, which moves in cyles.....Ages which are long from our point of view.
It is a growing experience.
Thing is, it is hard for people to explain the meaning of life when they do not even understand what they are.
You then get all kinds of speculations and the pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die is of the carrot and stick variety which has proved very useful in managing empires made up of naive and confused people who may very well consider themselves educated, but this is just a presumption...domesticated is a better term.
 
Wil you are speaking to me about the value of Christianity in your eyes, even though there has been much ill. I am taking what you say into consideration, sort of like an affidavit. You feel that Christianity is more than the sum of its parts: its doctrines and flavors or its violent and peace-loving history. That is the extreme opposite view of the 'get rid of religion' rhetoric, and its interesting to hear you defend it. It is a common mistake to think that neither of those extremes have any weight, but they have a lot of weight. They are powerful ideas which are counter to each other and which may well determine what happens in the future. The two viewpoints are very different, important, and many skeptics and doubters struggle to decide which path they're going to follow. They want to know the overall 'Thumbs-up' or 'Thumbs-down' of Christianity.
 
I find this one among many contradictions in his line of argument:

My point is that Christianity has always been a movement and that most churches have simply frozen Christianity at fairly primitive levels ...
And yet he refutes every development of doctrine from the very outset. How can he claim that Christianity is a movement, and then refutes the moves it makes, unless of course he's refuting all developments except the ones he wants to make?

It is not to oppose basic Christianity that is the agenda of Christian scholars; it is to seek truth through the Christian story or through the Christian lens.
Same thing. So Spong says, but then refutes more than a thousand years of development the Creed and the Baptismal Rite, and thereby accuses nearly every saint and theologian of 'making it up' ... as precisely this process of the opening up of the story, declaring them inventions ... again, how does he not fall under his own judgement?

That is what keeps me active in church life. Christianity is not static or doctrinal. It is a pathway we walk into the mystery of God.
This is simply self-refuting. A movement is also doctrinal, else just aimless movement for its own sake ...

Some people, for example, assert that the historic creeds defined primitive Christianity. The Apostles' Creed, however, began as a series of baptismal formulas in local churches in the third century and these formulas differed widely until they evolved into a single form somewhere between 250 and 290 CE. I doubt if the actual apostles would have recognized much of it.
Well John Henry Newman argued just the opposite, from evidence, quite convincingly. All Spong seems to rely on is doubt and his own credulity. Again, the basic argument is "I find it difficult to believe, so I'm sure the apostles would, too" which is just nonsense.

The earliest creed of the Church was only three words, Jesus is Messiah. The word "messiah" meant a variety of things to the Jews, so even the three-word creed had wide flexibility.
So he says, where's his evidence for that?

Others assert that believing in the Virgin Birth is a "core doctrine" of Christianity, but scholars can now demonstrate quite conclusively that both Paul and Mark seem never to have heard of it;
No they can't. Absence of evidence is no proof of anything.

and John, who was among the last writers in the New Testament, appears to have specifically rejected it since he refers to Jesus on two occasions as the "son of Joseph."
Oh drivel! The whole Gospel presents Jesus as the Incarnate Son of God, the only-begotten of the Father ... the whole Gospel focusses on the Cross and the Resurrection ... every Scripture scholar regards the Gospel as the Book of Signs and the Book of Glory ... again, this is selective cherry-picking ...

Still others suggest that the physical resurrection of Jesus is the essential core belief of Christianity, but I think I can demonstrate that Paul did not believe the resurrection was physical...
1 Corinthians 15:16-20
"For if the dead rise not again, neither is Christ risen again. And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins. Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ, are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now Christ is risen from the dead... "

... but once again these doctrines were not fully developed until the third and fourth centuries and it would be difficult to demonstrate that either Paul or Mark were Trinitarians.
Here the essential contradiction ... he even allows that they were perhaps nascent, or 'primitive' — and on the one hand he accuses churches of being 'primitive', and in the next breath accuses them of invention when they develop the message of Scripture. His own reading would seem to be totally literalist — if it's not there in black and white it's not there — and then he goes on to talk about the 'pathway to the mystery' ...

So I think his argument falls apart in its own internal contradictions. If doctrines of the 3rd or 4th are discounted, how can any doctrine of the 20th or 21st, and Spong is propounding a doctrine, not fall under the same judgement?

Thomas
 
This is sometime in the future. At the time of putting on the resurrected body, suffering ends. Paul is saying he has not attained the resurrected body yet. What ya have to say about his words here?
Namaste Ahanu,

Paul is saying he has not attained the resurrected body yet? What does that mean? Are you indicating that his words are indicating that 2000 years later he has not resurrected as he is still waiting for the second coming?

To me in reading it was most apparent that the apostles thought the return would be in their lifetime....just like sooo many folks have in the past 2000 years.

And yet he refutes every development of doctrine from the very outset. How can he claim that Christianity is a movement, and then refutes the moves it makes, unless of course he's refuting all developments except the ones he wants to make?


Same thing. So Spong says, but then refutes more than a thousand years of development the Creed and the Baptismal Rite, and thereby accuses nearly every saint and theologian of 'making it up' ... as precisely this process of the opening up of the story, declaring them inventions ... again, how does he not fall under his own judgement?

Well John Henry Newman argued just the opposite, from evidence, quite convincingly. All Spong seems to rely on is doubt and his own credulity. Again, the basic argument is "I find it difficult to believe, so I'm sure the apostles would, too" which is just nonsense.

Oh drivel! The whole Gospel presents Jesus as the Incarnate Son of God, the only-begotten of the Father ... the whole Gospel focusses on the Cross and the Resurrection ... every Scripture scholar regards the Gospel as the Book of Signs and the Book of Glory ... again, this is selective cherry-picking ...


1 Corinthians 15:16-20
"For if the dead rise not again, neither is Christ risen again. And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins. Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ, are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now Christ is risen from the dead... "


Here the essential contradiction ... he even allows that they were perhaps nascent, or 'primitive' — and on the one hand he accuses churches of being 'primitive', and in the next breath accuses them of invention when they develop the message of Scripture. His own reading would seem to be totally literalist — if it's not there in black and white it's not there — and then he goes on to talk about the 'pathway to the mystery' ...

So I think his argument falls apart in its own internal contradictions. If doctrines of the 3rd or 4th are discounted, how can any doctrine of the 20th or 21st, and Spong is propounding a doctrine, not fall under the same judgement?

Thomas
Namaste Thomas,

I'll get back to you on Paul. Do you think for a minute his thoughts/doctrine are not under judgement? Look at the responses to me here for the past 5 years. Every thing I post or discuss is looked on with disdain from those who feel threatened by my thoughts. I just started reading his works a couple years ago and am appreciative to find much of his writings in line with my thinking. The difference is he's been a scholar of theology and a man of the cloth for decades, a retired bishop, where I've just been going on instinctual feelings, inner understandings and a knowing where I can't put words or footnote my thoughts.

To me, what he is saying...is if the virgin birth is such a pivotal point, eg if you don't believe it your not a Christian...then how could Paul, Mark and John, not have insured it was in their writings?

Similarly he is asking why Mark and Matthew wouldn't cement home the physical ressurection. And the quote from Paul....nothing in there indicates it couldn't have been a spiritual resurection....that we'd live on in another plane of existence. Spong indicates that Paul doesn't indicate a physical ressurection and what you've provided doesn't either.

Sure we've got conjecture back and forth, various thoughts on the matter. As FS indicates this has been argued and discussed for thousands of years. And odds are it will be for thousands more.

I have no desire to tell anyone what to believe, I don't have that right. But I do have an intense desire to allow folks the freedom to believe. And for folks that believe in Christ Jesus, but not all the pomp and circumstance, not every jot and tittle written, edited, and rewritten...that they too can be Christians and follow Jesus, without the requirements that some try to either foist upon them....or stamp the dust off their shoes at them.
 
Gee Wil, and I thought it was the feminists that were after you !!! :D
Heck no Avi. But these folks aren't after me. G!d doesn't send us patient people to learn patience. These challenges are to assist my spiritual growth and understanding. To allow me to see the wonders of various perspectives. Seems persecution is a valuable learning tool. In my belief system we say 'what you resist persists'.

We are a part of something huge....vast, which moves in cyles.....Ages which are long from our point of view.
It is a growing experience.
Thing is, it is hard for people to explain the meaning of life when they do not even understand what they are.
You then get all kinds of speculations and the pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die is of the carrot and stick variety which has proved very useful in managing empires made up of naive and confused people who may very well consider themselves educated, but this is just a presumption...domesticated is a better term.
Namaste Shawn,

We surely can't chastise them for doing their best with the knowledge they had at the time....after all that is all we are doing today...in the future they'll wonder what a keyboard is, and how anyone could waste so much time sitting in one place to do something as mundane as recording and transmitting data.

Wil you are speaking to me about the value of Christianity in your eyes, even though there has been much ill. I am taking what you say into consideration, sort of like an affidavit. You feel that Christianity is more than the sum of its parts: its doctrines and flavors or its violent and peace-loving history. That is the extreme opposite view of the 'get rid of religion' rhetoric, and its interesting to hear you defend it. It is a common mistake to think that neither of those extremes have any weight, but they have a lot of weight. They are powerful ideas which are counter to each other and which may well determine what happens in the future. The two viewpoints are very different, important, and many skeptics and doubters struggle to decide which path they're going to follow. They want to know the overall 'Thumbs-up' or 'Thumbs-down' of Christianity.
Namaste Dream,

I give you all the thumbs up! Just don't throw the baby Jesus out with the dirty bath water...
 
Hi Wil —

To me, what he is saying...is if the virgin birth is such a pivotal point, eg if you don't believe it your not a Christian...then how could Paul, Mark and John, not have insured it was in their writings?
We could equally ask why, if the Church wrote its own self-serving doctrine, did it not ensure its invention was written into all the texts?

My point is that the scribes and later commentaries of the Fathers (for instance) do just what Spong claims as his own right, to walk the Mystery and answer the questions that it poses — the big questions: Who is man? What is the nature of Christ? Is He God? How is Christ man and God? How are we saved?

What does Spong do? He refutes their insight as invention because he presupposes the mysteries to by myth. Why? Because he cannot bring himself to accept them.

It seems to me he walks the mystery by rationalising it away. One can only wonder what, if anything, he is left with to believe in at all? If it's a myth, spun on the person of Jesus, then what of that Jesus is not a myth ... what stops all of it being an invention?

Every aspect of the Mystery is refuted, the Virgin Birth, the miracles, the Transfiguration, the Passion, the Resurrection, and by the same measure the Cross itself. What's left, what mystery is there? If the mysteries are false, then their conclusion is false, and Christianity in all its forms are false; all we are left with is whether the man — who was it would appear a dangerously false prophet, not the Messiah, and who got himself killed in pursuit of a vain delusion — actually ever existed at all.

There is no objectivity left, just a fabricated mythology, justified by man's need for mythologies, upon which he fabricates his own ... surely?

Thomas
 
Heck no Avi. But these folks aren't after me. G!d doesn't send us patient people to learn patience. These challenges are to assist my spiritual growth and understanding. To allow me to see the wonders of various perspectives. Seems persecution is a valuable learning tool. In my belief system we say 'what you resist persists'.

Wil, it looks like you've learned a few things hangin' out here since 2005 !! :)
 
Namaste Ahanu,

Paul is saying he has not attained the resurrected body yet? What does that mean? Are you indicating that his words are indicating that 2000 years later he has not resurrected as he is still waiting for the second coming?

To me in reading it was most apparent that the apostles thought the return would be in their lifetime....just like sooo many folks have in the past 2000 years.

Exactly. Jesus is coming very, very soon, and so their still waiting.

. . .for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thess 1:9-10).

Because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence (2 Cor 4:14).

Nobodies been raised yet. The resurrected body is a mystery. In other words, nobody knows!
 
i thought you were a Hindu :confused:

lol Good one :D
(note: we've only had 72,000 posts in the Abrahamic forum....so we've got a long way to go before we get to a million on any topic!)

That isn't actually an accurate account though, many, many threads have been removed, rehomed and so on..... Majority of topics sure feel like it is their millionth time being talked about... Alot of worn carpet.....
 
What does Spong do? He refutes their insight as invention because he presupposes the mysteries to by myth. Why? Because he cannot bring himself to accept them.

There is no objectivity left, just a fabricated mythology, justified by man's need for mythologies, upon which he fabricates his own ... surely?

Thomas
Namaste Thomas,

I love the leaps! Spong says he doesn't believe x doctrine due to y, therefor we should throw it all out. That isn't even close to what he or I say and you know it.

So some theologians said that those theologians were wrong and updated them...and then yours did the same thing, and then the protestants did the same thing.....bulletin....bulletin.....this will be going on forever, just as JPII updated those before him and your current fearless leader is doing the same, surely you wouldn't lambast him for upsetting some old apple cart. Yes to you Spong is an easy target, but can't bring himself to accept them?? He accepted them in his youth, he accepted them at seminary, he accepted them for decades leading his church....after decades of studies his thoughts evolved and he saw things as he does now (as if to say his thoughts won't grow more....not) Some book mentions in our youth we have childish ideas....someday we grow up.
Exactly. Jesus is coming very, very soon, and so their still waiting.
Nmaste Ahanu,

Perfect example, thanx for taking part! Every generation feels it will occur in their generation...the signs...the signs... Every generation, including the disciples.
 
I love the leaps! Spong says he doesn't believe x doctrine due to y, therefor we should throw it all out. That isn't even close to what he or I say and you know it.
OK. So I'm asking on what basis do you throw any of it out?

It seems to me that what is accepted and what is rejected is purely arbitrary. If you're citing Scripture to refute Scripture, then you're arguing that this bit refutes that bit, but you have no proof that any bit is true, any more than any bit is false?

It's the logic of the process I find unsound, without even looking at the deductions.

And my question also remains ... after he's disposed of the Mysteries, what actually is there left to believe in?

Thomas
 
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