Why stay a Christian?

You still miss the point.

I believe the text is the authentic testimony of witnessed events, and divinely inspired. I am not claiming the text is false.

I am saying that following your argument to its logical conclusion, nothing in the text can be considered reliable.

Again and again, you avoid the central question:
If you believe some of the text is false, how can you decide what is false and what is not, other than by an arbitrary decision based on personal opinion?

Thomas
Namaste Thonas,

The scholars have shown that a phrase, a paragraph is not in the books for a couple hundred years, suddenly it shows up.

They've seen notations in the margin end up as scripture.

I'm not going by my personal opinion, I'm reading folks much more learned than you or I, folks that have had access to a ton more information then the dead men you prefer to quote.

Just because you believe it to be true doesn't make it so (just because I believe it to be false doesn't make it so)

Jesus didn't doodle in the sand or say ye without sin cast the first stone...Heck, I love that story, I think it intense, powerful statement. It is a shame it isn't true...but that sure doesn't stop me from learning something from it. Someone down the line decided to add it and it seems for good reason.

Beginning of John.... was the word and the word was with G!d, but this wasn't written by that author....oh well....beautiful prose by someone who developed a wonderful preamble...again, I love it, but it was added.

These aren't my opinion.
 
Hi Wil —
Just because you believe it to be true doesn't make it so (just because I believe it to be false doesn't make it so)
That's not the point though, is it?

The point is, if you believe it to be false, why believe in it at all? Why call yourself a Christian, when you don't believe in any of it?

Jesus didn't doodle in the sand or say ye without sin cast the first stone...Heck, I love that story, I think it intense, powerful statement. It is a shame it isn't true...
All this demonstrates is your refusal to allow that it might be true. Scripture must conform to your preconceptions, ther's no chance that you might conform yourself to it?

Metanoia? No chance.

Wil —
I am not saying that Scripture is true, I am saying I choose to believe it to be true.
You say Scripture is false, because you choose to believe it to be false ... yet perversely you also want to be counted among the Christians (in case it isn't?). Why? If it's not true, why?

At best, surely it's all just sentimentalism, "I know it's a pack of lies, but I like it so much, I'll believe in it anyway..."

Thomas
 
Wil —
I am not saying that Scripture is true, I am saying I choose to believe it to be true.
You say Scripture is false, because you choose to believe it to be false ... yet perversely you also want to be counted among the Christians (in case it isn't?). Why? If it's not true, why?

At best, surely it's all just sentimentalism, "I know it's a pack of lies, but I like it so much, I'll believe in it anyway..."

Thomas
Namaste Thonas,

Again, you only have two tunes...all true...all false. Yet in fact you don't believe it all to be true, you believe Genesis and other parts to be mystery, parables, metaphor...or at least you've said so. You also know that parts have been modified and added....unless you haven't taken those classes yet

I don't say it is all false, never have...despite your constantly indicating it is what I believe. I also haven't called it a pack of lies...even if you choose to put it in quotes as if I have.

I appreciate that this thread is clarifying our thoughts and methods of discusssion.

I call myself a Christian because I choose to follow Jesus.

But the real question is, why do you so wish to get me to give up Jesus??
 
Namaste Thonas,

Again, you only have two tunes...all true...all false.
Absolutely wrong. I take genre very much into account ... nor do I claim every word is infallible, every word is revealed ...

... but I do not go so far as to claim a committee of scribes decided to fabricate a false testimony, as you do.

Yet in fact you don't believe it all to be true, you believe Genesis and other parts to be mystery, parables, metaphor...or at least you've said so.
I know what I have said. But that's not what you're saying.

You also know that parts have been modified and added....unless you haven't taken those classes yet
Yes I do. Doesn't make them false, fabricated, or blown up, or some other order of fireside yarn you suppose them to be. I doubt whether John wrote his Gospel ... but it was his testimony, it is his eye-witness experience that someone wrote down. And don't try that 'the memory plays tricks' let-out ... ancient cultures had a very sound tradition or oral testimony.

I don't say it is all false, never have...despite your constantly indicating it is what I believe. I also haven't called it a pack of lies...even if you choose to put it in quotes as if I have.
Well you've called it poppycock, and you dismiss it above with a completely unfounded assumption ... It's not what you say, it's what the logic of your argument says.

Using your logic, I can easily demonstrate the whole New Testament to be false from start to finish. In fact I have done, and you've chosen to ignore it. But the fact remains, what you decide is true, and what you decide isn't, is founded on nothing but assumption and sentimentality. It's not found on what the text says, it's found on what you assume the text can say. Any statement that goes beyond your assumption of what is, is obviously false ...

I call myself a Christian because I choose to follow Jesus.
But the real question is, why do you so wish to get me to give up Jesus??
No, Wil, the real question is when will you put you aside, and take Him up?

As I have said before, Wil ... I have never seen from you a reason to believe, only reasons not to ...

Thomas
 
Namaste Thomas,

I have never called the bible poppycock, nor you, only some of your statements.

I also don't claim some committee of scribes falsifying....I know nothing about committees or conspiracies, just folks with the power of the pen exercising their abilities. eg here I am sitting here copying this over and over but I think I could embellish this here....and here...or this is what we've been discussing around the fire...etc.

No using your thinking you are using my logic you've proved the whole new testament false... But you haven't used my logic nor my thinking...look down, those aren't my shoes you are in.

Ah the mystery....why does wil believe it worthy to follow the words of Jesus....when Thomas thinks he shouldn't....using his (I mean my) logic of course.

Take him up?? When will I drink your koolaid?? Is that you trying to convert me again?? If I'm not of the universal sect I can't believe...so sorry to disapoint.

Again Thomas, I'm here for discussion and learning, not trying to convert you....
 
Say you start off with a nice Top of the Range Mercedes Benz but over time you start replacing the parts with say Fiat parts now after a number of years all the Mercedes parts have all gone and basically its all Fiat.

Now some people would still like to call it a Mercedes perhaps because it makes them feel good a quality Marquee but actually its a crappy Fiat rather than a nice Merc :rolleyes:

This is what I feel some people do with Christianity :cool:
 
Hi Wil —

I have never called the bible poppycock, nor you, only some of your statements.
I know, curious, isn't it ... that anything anyone belives other than what you believe is poppycock? I mean, your argument is the only infallible and undeniable deduction ...

I also don't claim some committee of scribes falsifying...
I know you don't .. because you don't follow the trail to its conclusion ...

Think about it ... that's what it would take to run a up such a completely worked-through myth in so short a stretch of time. All the strands point in the same direction, ergo there must be one source behind all the strands ... ergo a concerted effort to deceive. Led by one, perhaps, but fulfilled by a committee working in cahoots...

By AD 50 the Curch was communally-centred, liturgically-focussed, eucharisticically-founded, we know that for a fact (much as you might not like it).

I suppose you could argue that Paul invented this fantastic doctrine, and there's nothing in John that's not in Paul, and then the scribes wrote the Gospels to fill in the backstory, as it were ... but the problem there, is Paul refers to the Gospels in 55AD, and that's to the people he was hunting before his conversion ... so the whole fabricated edifice had to be in place by around 40-45AD, for it to spread, Paul to hunt it, get the message ...

... so again, that means the false messages in John, written say 120AD, were already in place and well-embedded 80 years earlier ...

No using your thinking you are using my logic you've proved the whole new testament false... But you haven't used my logic nor my thinking...look down, those aren't my shoes you are in.
Really? It's not my logic or yours, Wil, it's just logic. I'm drawing the inescapable conclusions from the arguments you put forth. Then show me where I'm wrong. Stop making emotive statements and come up with some real data.

... here I am sitting here copying this over and over but I think I could embellish this here....and here...or this is what we've been discussing around the fire...etc.
That's exactly what you're doing with Jesus, Wil ... you've turned him into the embellishment of your own ideas ...

... don't you get it? There's no room in you that the text might be true ... for you, it must be false. Why. Because it must! Why? Because it's too fantastic to be true! Why? Because Jesus can't be the Son of God! Why? Because these things don't happen!

Is there absolutely not the slightest fraction of allowance that the suppositions of your favoured authorities might just be ... a little bit ... wrong?

So you've rejected the text, the only evidence, fragile as it may be, of Jesus, and you've written a better one ... one that suits you, anyway ... a Jesus according to your own script, and 'elder brother' and 'wayshower' as you put it, who no doubt would have said 'namaste' to everyone he met.

Wil ... you're doing exactly what you accuse the scribes of doing, so why should anyone listen to your Jesus, when you won't listen to theirs?

That's what bugs me Wil, you ridicule the faith of others for believing in what you insist is poppycock, and then declare your own fiction to be the words of a far deeper wisdom ..

Why, you're a bigger fundamentalist than me! :eek:

Thomas
 
I believe that what most people call orthodoxy in religious beliefs is little more than the imposed authority of some part of the Christian faith. The claim to be orthodox in one's belief is not to acknowledge a point of view that is true, but only the point of view that has prevailed. My studies lead me to believe that there never was a single consistent set of Christian beliefs.

This is my thinking too. What people call "orthodoxy" are really the ideas that have become established. Orthodoxy is conformity to established ideas, but whether or not the ideas established really lead a person to the most important things in their life is a question of whether those ideas are the same ideas that person would autonomously and independently discover for themselves to be "true" (ie. leading to the most important things in life).

There were many Christianities from the dawn of Christianity itself. Various groups have tried to define true Christianity, but when they do they almost always define their own institutional, authoritarian system.

I don't completely agree with this. I don't believe that all Christianities are authoritarian. Consider, for example, the concept of individualistic Christianity, a kind of Christianity that one imposes only on himself. This isn't authoritarian, because you are not imposing authority on others.

I think it would also be conducive to consider a secular concept: democracy. Religion often works like statecraft. A state power often aspires to regulate ideas and thoughts in society. An established group of "orthodoxy regulators" (scholars in a particular ideology) will seek to enforce conformity to an ideology. Anyone who does not conform is a "heretic." An established orthodoxy works very much like an autocracy and is driven by ideological hegemony. The established ideology has become dominant and enforces its rule.

In a democracy, state ideology isn't fixed. Cultural values and laws are allowed to evolve over time under a democratic framework. The trouble with Christianity driven by enforced conformity and enforced orthodoxy is that ideas either don't evolve, or only a certain group of people have the right to change the "established ideas."

In some churches, ideology isn't enforced. There is, however, guidance and emphasis on certain ideas.

So determining what the "core beliefs" of Christianity are is not as easy as people seem to think.

This might be a radical statement, but I personally don't think there are any core beliefs. I don't believe Christianity was supposed to work that way.

We all have our individual differences and stories like that of Jesus make a different impression on each of us. Each of us has his own unique experience. You can guide a person new to Christianity, but for that person to reach their full potential as a Christian, you have to allow that person to think for themselves.

Orthodoxy means "right thinking," but what is "right thinking?" This is very much like the question of what it means to have a "good education" and "bad education." I have heard it said that America has a "crappy public education system." (yeah here I go again commenting on that "superpower nation")

How do you give someone a "good education?" How do you teach someone well? What people often do at secondary level is have students pass a series of tests and examinations and have them ranked/scored by some numbering system. Students will then try to and maximise the scores they receive on that examination system. Apart from scores, there is also students' thinking and behaviour. Do students respect their teachers and educators? Do they suffer from depression, misbehave? Do they keep moving from one school to another? Are their parents breaking up? This is a big issue in the USA.

Let's suppose they do take their education seriously and try to maximise their scores. If they score high, does that mean that they are smart? Consider what happens when they reach university. Did their secondary education prepare them for tertiary education?

The question of a good education is similar to that of orthodoxy. It has to do with teaching and teachings. It is the question of what you need to do to teach a person to be useful, whether it is how one will contribute to one's religion, or the society, economy or government of one's country.

When I was reading about possible reforms in public education in America, I distinctly recall one article discussing the difference between "good and bad education." A good education was one that taught you to think for yourself. A bad education was one that trained you in narrow-minded thinking. Indoctrination is the worst kind of education you can receive. This is why I abhor fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is bad education for Christians.

The most difficult part of all is the distinction between education and orthodoxy. Education is about learning. Orthodoxy has a religious function, so the two cannot be the same. The way that I would resolve this difficulty is to say that although the two are not the same, they serve the same function. Orthodoxy to me is actually a subset of education. Orthodoxy is education in religion. Much like there being good and bad education, there is good and bad orthodoxy. More accurately, there is good and bad thinking.

Because orthodoxy means "right thinking," I don't agree with the "orthodoxy" of the Catholic Church. The orthodoxy of the Catholic Church are the established ideas promoted by the Catholic Church. But in order for one to be "thinking right" they may need to discard ideas that have become established. Established ideas may not be constructive.

To me, true orthodoxy is not conformity to established ideas, but a realisation of the full potential of human thinking. God created us all to be unique and different, so we are not all going to think the same way. But despite differences in thinking, God will have some way of ensuring that our individual endeavours all work together towards a common goal.

Despite what many may be thinking, I don't believe that God's will manifests itself in ideology, that is, in common, shared ideas. God has an individual agenda worked out for each person. Not everybody who reads the story of Jesus will have the same ideas on what is "Christianity," but somehow, it will work out to be something fruitful in the end.

That is, at least, the theory.;):rolleyes:

That is what keeps me active in church life. Christianity is not static or doctrinal. It is a pathway we walk into the mystery of God. I grant that it is easier to walk the Christ path in some churches than in others, but true Christianity is always evolving into what it can be; its purpose is not to protect what it has been. So I would suggest that for you to see your role in your church to be that of a change agent, you are in fact being a true worshiper of Christ.

This pretty much sums up what I have just said.
 
Namaste Thomas,

I have never said all your stuff was poppycock, once again it is all or nothing, it is getting old isn't it. I've twice said statements of yours were poppycock, and said why, this is out of thousands of posts....surprise I've given you more positive rep than I have said something was poppycock....interesting what we focus on.

No it is not logical that a committee of scribes...one makes a change....his change is copied and recopied and then folks like it better and it becomes part.

Somd of the changes were made hundreds of years after the originals (hence we can see the change) not by the same group, not in the same area....Just like a new bible like the NIV or the Message or KJV or the NKJV...they make changes and they publish. They are not in cahoots with each other but they are using each others works to create their own.

I do not declare my words of far deeper wisdom....please don't continue to put words in my mouth as you've been doing for so many of these posts.

I have said repeatedly, what I and millions of others ascribe to is an alternate belief to yours. We are closely aligned, we both follow Christ. I have no issues with your belief, that is your believing it. It just isn't for me.

I am willing to read the scholars of the day and the latest evidence...and discuss it. It seems you are willing to discuss it, but think somehow I am their spokesman, I'm not, I'm just a layperson reading.... hee hee...just thought of something.... no college education.... no theology school... I just read... I'm just a carpenter by trade... (fact)
 
Ah Thomas, you're back!

So much for retreating back across the Tiber! You said you weren't going to talk about Christianity or Catholicism, but here you are! (Remember the comment about the straw man in the Lounge?:eek:)

Welcome back!:D

And yet he refutes every development of doctrine from the very outset. How can he claim that Christianity is a movement, and then refutes the moves it makes, unless of course he's refuting all developments except the ones he wants to make?

Same thing. So Spong says, but then refutes more than a thousand years of development the Creed and the Baptismal Rite, and thereby accuses nearly every saint and theologian of 'making it up' ... as precisely this process of the opening up of the story, declaring them inventions ... again, how does he not fall under his own judgement?

This is simply self-refuting. A movement is also doctrinal, else just aimless movement for its own sake ...

Thomas, I think you misunderstood what Spong was saying. It's not about not having doctrine, but rather not having eternal, universal and timeless doctrine. Without doctrine there will be no change, but there is no doctrine that is perfect or that will solve all problems.

Look at human history. What important and salient aspects of today's society have we inherited from the past that also existed in the immediately preceding generation of our time? People created doctrine and ideology to promote change and likewise, churches must do the same.

Churches will remain stagnant and not grow if they keep repeating exactly the same ideas over and over again, as if that is their sole purpose. We may not change the details of Jesus' story, but his significance to the present generation is not going to be the same as that in the first century, nor even to that of your parents.

Absence of evidence is no proof of anything

If I accepted that, I could argue that Jesus looked like a monkey even if there was no evidence for that. There is no evidence that Jesus looked like a monkey, but I could sure assert that he did . . .

It seems to me he walks the mystery by rationalising it away. One can only wonder what, if anything, he is left with to believe in at all? If it's a myth, spun on the person of Jesus, then what of that Jesus is not a myth ... what stops all of it being an invention?

That is the path that Spong walks, the race that he runs. Did Paul not say that "one man eats anything, another man eats only vegetables?" Did he not also say, "I can do anything, but not everything is good for me?"

We don't all think the same, but just because his thinking is different, does not mean that it doesn't serve the purpose of Christianity, and Jesus said "whoever is not for me is against me." This is Spong's way of fulfilling Jesus' purpose. It is not for you to judge Spong's path.

Every aspect of the Mystery is refuted, the Virgin Birth, the miracles, the Transfiguration, the Passion, the Resurrection, and by the same measure the Cross itself. What's left, what mystery is there? If the mysteries are false, then their conclusion is false, and Christianity in all its forms are false; all we are left with is whether the man — who was it would appear a dangerously false prophet, not the Messiah, and who got himself killed in pursuit of a vain delusion — actually ever existed at all.

I personally don't think he refutes these things. I think he is just tired of Christians making a fuss about them and not lifting a finger to help the poor and the oppressed. They would, instead, rather, preach hell-fire, talk about Satan and vent their hatred against Muslims and homosexuals. Talk about the Mystery falls into the same category. One can argue about the Mystery, but it doesn't help the human race deal with social injustice and environmental degradation.

My concern with obsession over the Mystery is that it often doesn't serve a socially constructive agenda. The Mystery is great when it moves mountains and saves lives, but not when all people seem to care about is the Mystery itself. Meanwhile, hundreds and thousands live in poverty.

I believe that Spong probably thinks very much the same way. That's what my intuition tells me. I think there are two main groups of people in Christianity: the social-political kind and the legend/mythological kind. The latter take the language of the New Testament literally. Jesus was regarded as some great, larger-than-life Hellenistic hero, so the latter-kind of Christian are driven by the language and words describing such a hero (ie. Son of God, incarnate). The former kind transform their faith into something socially constructive. I think Spong belongs to the former group.

There is no objectivity left

But maybe this is what you need to accept. In Christianity, there is no such thing as objectivity. There are only individual experiences.

OK. So I'm asking on what basis do you throw any of it out?

You throw something out when it is no longer relevant. You throw it out when it no longer serves a socially constructive agenda. Jesus came to heal the sick, make the blind see and make the lame walk. If the church isn't doing that, it is churning out useless psycho-babble. A church like that is dead, and I believe that there are many dead churches in the world today, churches that don't do anything good for the world.

But the point is, I am arguing that something is true, Wil is arguing that it is not. A faith in what one believes is logical, but a faith in what one believes to be false, seems illogical.

I believe that it is possible to find arguments to assert two opposing extremes when it comes to religion. It is just a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils.

Religion isn't driven by logic because religion is driven by human sentience and human sentience does not have a logical structure. This is why you can have two contradictory views or opinions that can both be "true" (as in, justifiable) based on the individual experiences of the people who generated them.

Both sides may feel justified in their views, but in the end it comes down to a question of values. You may find that your opponent is right. You just don't like his ideas.:) As I said, it is just of matter of choosing the lesser of two evils. That's why you think your opponent is wrong. You think your opponent is evil. To choose something less evil than opponent, you must necessarily disagree with him.

Beginning of John.... was the word and the word was with G!d, but this wasn't written by that author....oh well....beautiful prose by someone who developed a wonderful preamble...again, I love it, but it was added.

The concept of the Logos was actually derived from an idea suggested by a Jewish philosopher named Philo.
 
Say you start off with a nice Top of the Range Mercedes Benz but over time you start replacing the parts with say Fiat parts now after a number of years all the Mercedes parts have all gone and basically its all Fiat.

Now some people would still like to call it a Mercedes perhaps because it makes them feel good a quality Marquee but actually its a crappy Fiat rather than a nice Merc :rolleyes:

This is what I feel some people do with Christianity :cool:

Christianity isn't a machine. It's a story. I think people who are concerned about vandals who take Christianity apart like a car are themselves mistaken in their thinking.

They are mistaken because they fail to notice the plant that lives inside.:) You can stop a car from working by removing parts, but you can't stop a plant growing the same way. To stop a plant growing, you have to either cuts its roots or stop watering it. Cutting off leaves and branches, however, doesn't do as much in the way of stopping growth.

Christianity is more like a plant than a car. The real religion is in the plant, not the machine. A car isn't a biological entity. A plant better represents my concept of Christianity because I believe Christianity needs to have a life of its own to have any value in the world.

Remember Jesus' stories about plants? He told them for a reason.
 
Namaste Salty,

Welcome to the thread. I was headed out the door earlier when I posted just after you...just got back to read everything.

And Thomas,

I've currently got nothing to add but as I was driving I was contemplating my spiritual thoughts...which are more and more along the line of workin on myself, my own relationship with all there is. And for me that is the crux of it...when I attend some service or mass that doesn't resonate...I don't feel any connection...hence I look elsewhere. No undoubtedly you do feel that connection at mass, for the eucharist, during the call and repeat... I'm glad and wouldn't want anything else for ya...
 
Christianity isn't a machine. It's a story. I think people who are concerned about vandals who take Christianity apart like a car are themselves mistaken in their thinking.

They are mistaken because they fail to notice the plant that lives inside.:) You can stop a car from working by removing parts, but you can't stop a plant growing the same way. To stop a plant growing, you have to either cuts its roots or stop watering it. Cutting off leaves and branches, however, doesn't do as much in the way of stopping growth.

Christianity is more like a plant than a car. The real religion is in the plant, not the machine. A car isn't a biological entity. A plant better represents my concept of Christianity because I believe Christianity needs to have a life of its own to have any value in the world.

Remember Jesus' stories about plants? He told them for a reason.

if you say so salty master ;)
 
So much for retreating back across the Tiber! You said you weren't going to talk about Christianity or Catholicism, but here you are! (Remember the comment about the straw man in the Lounge?:eek:)
I'm talking philosophy, not theology.

But I will admit I have posted theologically elsewhere ... I need to keep check on myself!

It's not about not having doctrine, but rather not having eternal, universal and timeless doctrine. Without doctrine there will be no change, but there is no doctrine that is perfect or that will solve all problems.
No, it's not even about that. It's not about the doctrine, it's about the validity of the source materials from which the doctrine derives.

The question asks: Why stay a Christian.

The obvious answer is, if you can't believe in the materials from which Christianity derives, then there is no reason to stay a Christian.

If you remove the aspect of the spirit from the text, which seems to be the case in this instance, you remove the aspect of the erernal, the absolute, etc., they you're left with a moral message, an ethics system some 2,000 years old. And even you would agree that society moves on ...

Religion isn't driven by logic because religion is driven by human sentience and human sentience does not have a logical structure.
Of course it does, or logic wouldn't be in its vocabulary.

Thomas
 
Aesthetic Christian? As in seeking Christianity thru knowledge, and the five senses? Without faith?

Not the Jack Spong I've met.

But back to the logical conclusion. Again I guess millions of us are illogical. And some do come to that conclusion. Bart Ehrman went atheist with the same information that Jack Spong stayed Christian. Of course with the same info some become Catholic, Baptist, JW, whatever...
 
Explains...?? Nope never been a Hindu. A friend of mine married one, I thoroughly enjoy his mother in laws food. And heck I respect Gandhi's words. But I am a follower of Jesus...much to the chagrine of others.

What I do work on in my life and my belief is openess and the willingness to expose and admit issues. Its these things that others like to pick at. However once it is exposed and still acceptable...it is no longer an issue and folks can no longer pick at it.

Hence the reason most Atheists are orthodox literalists...tis easy that way.
Easy? Who said this was easy? I'll keep it simple for you though (since I don't want to complicate your life anymore than it is).
Who is going to cover my sorry ass? Buhda won't, Mohamad won't, and neither can any other human. But Jesus said "I will". And he did. 'nuff said. ;)

vv/r

Q
 
Call me confused Q, I didn't know you were an Orthodox literalist Atheist....those were the ones I said had it the easy way, and they ain't lookin for anyone to cover their ass. They are fine with accidents and dust...
 
Call me confused Q, I didn't know you were an Orthodox literalist Atheist....those were the ones I said had it the easy way, and they ain't lookin for anyone to cover their ass. They are fine with accidents and dust...
Lol, surely, you jest...:eek:
 
Easy? Who said this was easy? I'll keep it simple for you though (since I don't want to complicate your life anymore than it is).
Who is going to cover my sorry ass? Buhda won't, Mohamad won't, and neither can any other human. But Jesus said "I will". And he did. 'nuff said. ;)

vv/r

Q
The question is....why do you think of yourself that way (sorry ass)????
It is kind of demeaning.
You should think better of yourself....you know....created in the image and likeness of God....having the kingdom of heaven within you....a royal priesthood and a holy nation....sons and daughters of the Most High God....etc


That doesn't mean your crap doesn't stink, and you shouldn't get too full of yourself, but it really helps to have a better sense of self-worth.
God didn't create garbage.....but our attitudes, beliefs and choices sometimes stink.
 
Back
Top