Creationism.

[jfl]

but what, exactly, constitutes "life"? the turing test?

Biologists have a standard set of criteria for what constitutes a living thing.

1. A living thing must be composed of individual living cells.

2. A living thing must be able to take in nutrients and expel waste materials, i.e., it must be able to metabolize.

3. A living thing must be able to respond to external stimuli from its environment.

4. A living thing must be have homeostasis, i.e., the ability to maintain a certain set of internal biochemical conditions.

5. A living thing must be able to grow and reproduce itself.

6. A living thing must be able to evolve- if you accept the Darwinian point of view.

the sun was Created, fine - but not right at the beginning.

Some creationists accept the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe. My understanding is that all matter and energy in the universe originated in the Big Bang event, thus the matter and energy for the earth’s sun did come about “in the beginning”.

not until there had been "evenings" and "mornings" and "days". logically, if a day is defined in terms of the sun and moon, then if there were days before the sun and moon,

Have you ever heard of the Great Iron Catastrophe? According to this theory the primordial earth’s oceans were filled with iron that gave the sky a reddish tint due to reflected sunlight- the same way today’s oceans give the sky a blue tint. As long as the sky had this reflected reddish color sunlight could reach the earth (thus plants were possible before day 4 of the creation week), and an observer on earth could discern between day and night, but the sun wouldn’t have been very visible due to the sky’s red color. Eventually something caused the iron in the oceans to sink towards the earth’s core, thus turning the ocean and sky blue meaning the sun became visible from the earth’s surface.

then we can't be talking about days as we understand them, can we, on the strength of what the Torah itself says?

Actually the days of the creation week could have been literal solar days, but this doesn’t mean they were 24 hour days. There is archaeological and documentary evidence indicating that the earth hasn’t always had 24 hour solar days or even 365.25 solar day years. Also, the Indian Ocean earthquake that caused the tsunami that killed so many people a while back shook the earth so much that the earth’s orbit around the sun was altered. The earth may readjust itself in time, but after the quake the earth no longer had 24 hour solar days.

 

[jfl]

Yes, I get that you are making a point; however that is what everyone wants to do.


Yes, we keep pursuing to find this vital force and cannot find any. Neuroscience has not found it either. Soon the concept of Vital Force will likely be completely excluded from all aspects of our anatomy both physical and mental. It pretty much looks like that is the way the research is going. Reverse engineering the creature, it resolves into its constituent parts; so (to me) that means the parts are likely to make up the entire creature. Its the same question as the Turing Test, and its just a matter of opinion. "If you cannot tell the difference is it still just a machine?"

Having all of the physical parts needed for life does not automatically mean the possessor of the parts is alive. If what makes organic compounds alive is spiritual or supernatural, it is beyond the ability of science to discover it.

 

[shawn]

Just a thought here....if you are going to debate the book of Genesis maybe start doing some word studies in HEBREW.....please.
"days" you read as english has a specific meaning which is far removed from the Hebrew meaning of the word translated as "days" and means a non-specified period of time, like we use the term moment, but more so.
So it could have been billions and billions of years (our subjective earth time)and still been a day as defined in Genesis.
Learn to read the text properly.....please.
The kindest thing I can think of to say of those who believe in 6 literal 24 hr earth days for creation is "^$$%#%& *&%%$#%".

 

[Saltmeister]

Just a thought here....if you are going to debate the book of Genesis maybe start doing some word studies in HEBREW.....please.
"days" you read as english has a specific meaning which is far removed from the Hebrew meaning of the word translated as "days" and means a non-specified period of time, like we use the term moment, but more so.

The word "eons" comes to mind. What about eras and epochs?

The kindest thing I can think of to say of those who believe in 6 literal 24 hr earth days for creation is "^$$%#%& *&%%$#%".

What of those who think in terms of 6,000 years? Is that any better?

 

[shawn]

The word "eons" comes to mind. What about eras and epochs?



What of those who think in terms of 6,000 years? Is that any better?

The word implies an unspecified period of time, but eras and epochs or ages would also be possible IMO.

As to those who think on such small scales as 6000 yrs, IMO they are rather egocentric in thinking that the universe revolves around us, when in reality we are but a small part of a bigger whole.
Get over yourselves, as you are not as important as you think .
The universe does not revolve around us and God does not set his calender according to our celestial mechanics.
we are a small cog in a much bigger entity.

 

[jfl]

Just a thought here....if you are going to debate the book of Genesis maybe start doing some word studies in HEBREW.....please.
"days" you read as english has a specific meaning which is far removed from the Hebrew meaning of the word translated as "days" and means a non-specified period of time, like we use the term moment, but more so.
So it could have been billions and billions of years (our subjective earth time)and still been a day as defined in Genesis.
Learn to read the text properly.....please.
The kindest thing I can think of to say of those who believe in 6 literal 24 hr earth days for creation is "^$$%#%& *&%%$#%".

According to Strong’s Concordance the Hebrew term that the King James Bible translates as day in Genesis 1:5 when God called the light day and the “first day” is identified is:

3117. yowm (yome)
“From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb)”.


So the term Yom (as is Yom Kippur) can mean either a solar day or a prolonged, but otherwise undefined, period of time. There is nothing in the context of Genesis 1 to suggest the term is not being used with its literal solar day meaning.

 

[dauer]

There is nothing in the context of Genesis 1 to suggest the term is not being used with its literal solar day meaning.

It depends on how one approaches the text. As BB pointed out, days start being counted before the appearance of a sun by which to count days. This is the first thing that suggests that it's not referring to a solar today. It's the first appearance of the word in the Torah. According to traditional Jewish interpretive methods, the first appearance of a word most clarifies the meaning. Since the first appearance is prior to the sun, it couldn't be referring to a solar day following that method. So by context alone, following at least one interpretive method, the yom we're discussing couldn't possibly be a solar day. It is only by taking it out of context that it could be understood in that way.

 

[bananabrain]

what dauer said. and, if we have no common method by which to define "life", then we are already speaking at cross-purposes.

Have you ever heard of the Great Iron Catastrophe? According to this theory the primordial earth’s oceans were filled with iron that gave the sky a reddish tint due to reflected sunlight- the same way today’s oceans give the sky a blue tint. As long as the sky had this reflected reddish color sunlight could reach the earth (thus plants were possible before day 4 of the creation week), and an observer on earth could discern between day and night, but the sun wouldn’t have been very visible due to the sky’s red color. Eventually something caused the iron in the oceans to sink towards the earth’s core, thus turning the ocean and sky blue meaning the sun became visible from the earth’s surface.

well, i dare say, but you have to jump through quite a lot of hoops before that becomes anything to do with the way the Torah works.

Actually the days of the creation week could have been literal solar days, but this doesn’t mean they were 24 hour days.

and now it feels like you're moving the goalposts. as dauer put it, the first use of the term is key, but no classical authority in judaism has felt it necessary to preclude anything but a strict literalism in interpreting this part of the Torah, which is, generally, considered to be recondite in the extreme.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Wil,

thank you for the post.

Now I am recently gaining an understanding that I had never realized before and would like to expand on it, understand it further.

Creationism is an American belief?

Young Earth Creationism is most certainly an American phenomena though Creationism, per se, is found in several other countries. more to the point, however, is that this ideology is specifically of Protestant origin and finds no correlation within the Catholic or Orthodox schools of Christian thought.

Now being an American (of the United States) I must say I did grow up in this culture and with this belief. Seven days, G!d said this, did that etc.

And my Jewish friends had this calendar that was started at that first day of creation. And I had friends who told us the world was less than 10,000 years old. And then we had school and science and then talked about the 'monkey trials'

all specific to the United States, i'm afraid... well.. the young earth part at any rate. other Christian traditions believe in Creationism, per se, i.e. that God created the cosmos and all within yet do not hold to a literal view of the time frame involved.

i've never dialoged with a non-American Christian that held the Young Earth CreationISM view. indeed... one could argue that Young Earth CreationISM has splintered to such a degree that it represents a new sect of the Protestant tradition.

as this isn't the Science area i shant go into much depth regarding the science parts other than to say that science as a lingua franca is neutral towards the idea of a Creator being given as it's baliwick is creation, so to speak. scientists are, like all other people, often quite different from one another and can hold differing views. i would venture to say that, given the representation of monotheists throughout the world, the bulk of scientists are religious believers.

metta,

~v

 

[dan b]

In the Genesis Creation Story there are six days worth of creation. This is where to look for answers about it. Jesus warned about regarding mankind's traditions and outlooks.
Look at the 31 versed of Gen.1 On the first day it mentions Earth numerous times. On the second day it divides Waters. On the third day there is dryness and then plants. This equals Air. On the fourth day the Fires in the sky are created. Even the 5th and 6th days are a progression that has been acomplished by god as a creation, and is actually proceeding even today! Particles of EARTH are being desolved by WATER in AIR producing plants that grow up towards the FIRE of the sun. Is this not what Genesis says? Read the real thing for information about creation. Study and spread the news that Genesis is an excelant synopsis of everything in this world! Gen.2;7 is the beginning that Jn.1;1 is talking about. "In the beginning was the word,....all things were made by him...." This is a description of the beginning of Mesopotamian Civilization/Adam and Eve beginning farming, using words-naming the animals...ect dan b

 

[wil]

Namaste Dan,

Welcome to IO, Unfortunately we also now know that John 1 isn't included in any of the older documents we have, while it is quite poetic and loved by most of us, it was added much later...

 

[dan b]

Namaste Will,
What I have found from my personal study is that the bible has been shaping itself throughout it's history. First we had the 39 Hebrew Bible for the first 39 centuries after Mesopotamian Adam and Eve. then began the Greek bible -77 books, then from it developed the Latin -73 books and finally today the fully perfected 66 book protestant bible. This polishing of the diamond of god's word has brought perfection today.
Now our Bible of 66 books divides evenly into the original hebrew catagories of The Law, The Prophets and the Writtings. The 22 books in the Prophet's collomn are all names of old and new testament prophets. The third column call writting is all epistls or writtings. It's the same with the many included and taken out versed along the bible's historical prograssion carring all along hidden inside it, the word of god. It has been hidden until today to avoid tampering by anyone. It wasn't really understandable untill today after 2000AD Hindu and buddist religion was brought to India by the sons of Keturah, Abrahams 3d wife. They were the Aryans. So lets keep on talking , it's what animals can't do. dan b

 

[wil]

Namaste Dan,

Your personal study... Whose teachings is your personal study mentored by?

 

[Penelope]

Creationism is an American belief?

Now being an American (of the United States) I must say I did grow up in this culture and with this belief. Seven days, G!d said this, did that etc.

And my Jewish friends had this calendar that was started at that first day of creation. And I had friends who told us the world was less than 10,000 years old. And then we had school and science and then talked about the 'monkey trials' ...

America has a really stupid streak in it, Wil.
It does not surprise me that Creationism is a largely American phenomenon.

& & &

I have a thing or two to say about the Creationism subject.

But I rather that anyone interested, read about it in a different context, my own:

Creationists turn their back on God

and

The original version of Genesis 1 went something like this ...

Just wrote them. Both are rude (but they tell the truth).
If you are easily offended by rudeness (or truth), please avoid.

& & &

But, frankly, I'd like to know where this willfully ignorant streak - in certain Americans of faith - comes from, too.

 

[Penelope]

Have you ever heard of the Great Iron Catastrophe? According to this theory the primordial earth’s oceans were filled with iron that gave the sky a reddish tint due to reflected sunlight- the same way today’s oceans give the sky a blue tint. As long as the sky had this reflected reddish color sunlight could reach the earth (thus plants were possible before day 4 of the creation week), and an observer on earth could discern between day and night, but the sun wouldn’t have been very visible due to the sky’s red color. Eventually something caused the iron in the oceans to sink towards the earth’s core, thus turning the ocean and sky blue meaning the sun became visible from the earth’s surface.

Hi JFL

The Earth is a magical planet. A miracle planet.

There are hundreds of thousands of things which could have happened to prevent the Evolution of human life from occurring on this planet. But evolution somehow managed to skirt these problems ... and (by sheer luck or divine intervention) here we humans are!

& & &

Earth is about 4.5 billion years old.
The Earth forms in the same explosive event which forms the Sun.
(The Big Bang, 9 billion+ years earlier had formed only Hydrogen and Helium. This more recent, local explosive-event forms all the heavier chemicals needed to build Planets ... and eventually Life.)

The Earth is molten rock for 100,000,000 years. The sky is red from thick carbon-dioxide and hydrogen-sulfide in the atmosphere. The solar energy reaching the Earth is weak, the Sun a dim light in the red sky. Over time most of the heaver elements like Iron sink from gravity, and the lighter elements and compounds like water rise to the surface. This molten iron core creates magnetic fields around the Earth, deflecting deadly solar winds up and over Earth and safely into space. The sky stays red.

The Earth is pulverized by meteors and comets, still flying wildly about the young solar-system. These bring to Earth large amounts of Water, and small amounts of Protein compounds. Heat evaporates the water, and it rains relentlessly for millions of years till 90% of the Earth is covered by water. Impact with Earth does not destroy the proteins these meteors and comets carry, but fashions peptides (larger compounds). And millions of years of trial-and-error, or sheer chance recombining molecules in the huge sea, produce amino acids and eventually bacteria cells. The sky stays red.

Granite rock forms, which makes possible the formation of continents. Single cell stromatolites start feeding on the carbon-dioxide atmosphere, utilizing the Sun's energy in this chemical process, and giving off oxygen as a bi-product. After 1 billion years of pumping oxygen into the atmosphere, the skies turn blue. The continents drift together, colliding, forming one supercontinent. Then a massive sheet of ice covers the entire Earth, for 50,000,000 years, killing off all life on Earth.

Almost all life. (Narrow escape.) Volcanic activity begins to tear the supercontinent apart. Ice retreats to the poles. The planet sustains a heatwave. Multi-cell life develops in the oceans - in a mad rush. The ozone layer develops around the Earth's atmosphere, as a UV-protective shield, so now life can begin to develop on land.

Then massive volcanic eruptions blacken the sky, cool the warm Earth, and kill off 95% of all species. Another super-continent forms and breaks apart. When the dust settles, dinosaurs develop and rule the planet for 170,000,000 years. And they perhaps still would be, except for the conjunction of two simultaneous catastrophes - a massive volcanic eruption in India, and a huge meteor hitting Mexico. Dinosaurs and 70% of all living species become extinct.

But a mouselike mammal emerges and evolves. 2 million years ago, one of these mammals stands upright, able to run a prey to death. With ice ages, this creature learns to diversify its diet, and out-compete primate competitors. 10 thousand years ago, this creature consciously begins to alter the ecology of the planet. 2,600 years ago, this creature begins to be able to recognize the difference between Internal and External reality - this creature is a creature no longer determined by genetic laws, but is able to make conscious decisions. This creature no longer lives in a dreamlike blur.

God is born.

& & &

Fascinating story. Right?
(Beat that story, Genesis 1 ... !

You can't, can you?)

& & &

Quite a miracle that we are all here. (So many things that might have prevented it.)
But ... what a story we have to tell!

What a story we have to tell.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Here are some thought to ponder, wil .....

Creation has "always" been (It simply existed in another form prior to what it is now). Creation (As we know it) was "brought forth", but it was brought forth through the many changes taking place within an infinite existence. Just as we go through changes, and take on new forms, so it was with "creation" itself.

There was never a time that existence came into being - Existence was not created; it has always been, and will always be. Creation as we know it (On the other hand) was formed through the many changes taking place within existence itself. Creation is simply a finite 'part' of an infinite reality ... Constantly going through changes.

Everything finite exists as a part of the infinite and are eternal in nature, only the finite parts of existence go through many transformations, changing from one form to another.

For example: Our bodies decay, and we return to the dust of the earth, yet that transformation does not end there. We also become nourishment for other finite life forms, which in turn become nourishment for other finite life forms.

Then we have another element to our being ... our spirit, and our soul. We never cease to exist (Not ever) as we have, in one form or another always existed. The same is true for 'creation' - It has always existed, just not how it exists today.

The creation story is certainly allegorical in my mind - I am American born and raised, too. Btw, I came to understand creation like this when I began to try and identify how and what I viewed God to be. To me, God is everything that has ever been, and everything that will ever be! He is the great "I Am".

GK

 

[jahway]

Hi JFL

The Earth is a magical planet. A miracle planet.

I enjoyed what you had to say. Whether your intention or not. By studying the theory of the big bang and evolution furthers my faith in God. To be alive, as a human with the ability to think and be conscious is indeed a miracle, and a miracle that I believe had divine intervention.

Thank you.

 

[Dogbrain]

Namaste Will,
What I have found from my personal study is that the bible has been shaping itself throughout it's history. First we had the 39 Hebrew Bible for the first 39 centuries after Mesopotamian Adam and Eve. then began the Greek bible -77 books, then from it developed the Latin -73 books and finally today the fully perfected 66 book protestant bible. This polishing of the diamond of god's word has brought perfection today.

I would hardly call the Protestant canon "perfected". "Truncated" or "stunted" might fit the bill better.