Does evil exist?

[The Undecided]

Namaste and welcome undecided and ditto

Perception is a mighty diviider...

Your not wrong. I've been reading a lot about Buddhism at the moment and I'm still trying to get my head around the concept that everything is a projection of a projection of a projection. I also work with kids who have Autism and there perceptions seems so crazy sometimes, but the information they get from the world is so different from the average person. I guess the more different your perception of the world is from others the less you can empathise with others, Autism is an extreme example of this.

 

[The Undecided]

Just curious, who decides what matters and what does not...?

What I meant was that TV programs come and go, but deciding how one should live their life, and even what religion one should follow seems more important, to me. I guess it depends on your point of view. The decision is a personal one.

 

[17th Angel]

Thanks for clearing that up Just checking.

 

[The Undecided]

I think one way to approach the subject of evil is to look at how religions respond to it. Obviously, salvation wouldn't be necessary if evil does not exist.

As I understand it, suffering is a starting point for the Buddhist idea of salvation. For the sake of discussion, I'm prepared, to say that suffering is not the "real evil." Rather, it is the fact that everything is temporary and that we can't keep up with it that causes suffering. I suppose it depends on how you look at it, but someone could reasonably argue that the basic transitory state of things is evil.

I would argue that the transitory state of things is neither good or evil, it is just the way things are. Good and evil are perceptions that we place on things so that they make sense to us. Nothing is either one things or another all the time, or else it would not be transitory. Everything is always changing, this is what is meant by Emptiness in Buddhism. Everything is empty of having a essence to it that is permanent.

 

[shawn]

I would argue that the transitory state of things is neither good or evil, it is just the way things are. Good and evil are perceptions that we place on things so that they make sense to us. Nothing is either one things or another all the time, or else it would not be transitory. Everything is always changing, this is what is meant by Emptiness in Buddhism. Everything is empty of having a essence to it that is permanent.

I would agree with that....one man's garbage is another man's gold or one man's poison is another man's food, etc.

Everything is relative they say, and this is true.

Consider the situation with the spruce beetle in canada.
The forest in the past thousands of years were managed by nature and by the indigenous inhabitants (first nations people's) and they would assist nature by conducting controlled burns of the landscape at the proper times, when there was still enough snow and moisture to keep things from getting out of hand, but enough dry crap to actually be effective.
When people from Europe came they noted in their journals how park-like many of these areas were, where indigenous tribes were located.

This had the added benefit of making travel through these areas easier as the lower parts were clear of debris.....the ground received fertilizer from the ash.....plant disease was kept in check as fire is a great sterilizer....insect infestations were also kept in check as the fire would kill their eggs. So all around this was a positive interaction with GOOD results.

Now, with corporate forest harvesting for the purpose of paper and lumber production, burns are seen as an evil as the corporations want to extract all the trees they can and not burn any, but now they have this huge problem with, for one, the spruce beetle which is out of control and is killing off vast hectares of forest, the tent caterpillar is likewise doing extensive damage to the poplar forests.

So the question of good or bad is again relevant in a practical sense.
what will they do? (rhetorical)

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Phyllis,

thank you for the post.

An example of what I call evil (will post it in white so those who have compassionate leanings won't lose their breakfasts/lunches/dinners/whatever):

A female who moved out of an apartment in New York City, returned, trashed the place, took a little kitten that lived with the former roommate, threw the kitten into the oven, closed the door, cranked it to the highest setting, then left so she wouldn't have to hear the kitten's cries or scratching the oven door to be let out. She killed the kitten because "I hate cats". The necropsy (an autopsy for non-human beings) was the only way they could identify anything about the victim, including gender.

The perp was sentenced to only a year, although she has shown sociopathic tendencies (long, violent criminal record, including mugging a woman for her Boston Terrier.)

The incident I posted in white happened around June 6th of this year.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

isn't this simply an example of defining evil as the content of the action in question ipso facto this act is evil by definition. if i define the consumption of flesh as evil then, by definition, everyone eating a hamburger is doing something evil yet i haven't established any intersubjective means by which someone could ascertain that the consumption of flesh is evil. evil is, in the end, a philosophical construct.

i've heard some arguments wherein the thing which makes something evil is that it is another soul which is experiencing it, which allows for all manner of actions which seem quite unethical and immoral but, as no souls are affected, not evil.

i sometimes have the impression that the term "evil" is reserved for a special category of socially unacceptable actions and that if society were different so would that category of actions, by that understanding, i'm a pretty evil being


metta,

~v

 

[citizenzen]

The aspect of "evil" that I think is most questionable is that it somehow exists outside of our minds as an entity or a force... and that this force seeks to corrupt us to its diabolical ends.

Do I believe that evil exists? No.

Evil is just one end of a spectrum. It is the utter lack of compassion. On the other end of the spectrum is perfect compassion. Somewhere in between these two points exists human behavior.

Do I believe that people sometimes lack compassion? Absolutely.

The good news? We have absolute control over which end of the spectrum we operate.

Which one will you choose?

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste CZ,

thank you for the post.

it is anthropormorphization to the nth degree, without doubt, but then it turns out that a great many beings also personify the antithesis as well which leads to the notions that portray the personification of good as "god" whereas the evil personification becomes "satan".

it strikes me that thought patterns which develop along these lines can easily lead a being into abdicating responsibility for their actions the so-called "devil made me do it" excuse and, conversely the "that's not me that's god acting through me" to explain "good" actions. neither approach seems to have much to recommend it to my way of thinking.

metta,

~v

 

[Jenn]

Does evil exist? Certainly not an easy question to answer. I'm afraid though that the word "evil" has very little relevance to my understanding of the world. I see suffering and pain being experienced, and I see others inflicting suffering and pain. I don't call those who inflict suffering and pain (no matter how horrendous) "evil" though, nor in doing so am I trying to minimize or negate the very real horrors all sorts of beings experience (not just humans).

At the same time, because my understanding of the world is not dualistic (or primarily concerned with a duel, whether that be between Good v Evil or God v Satan, etc) I see that even suffering and the pain that happens with living forces and energies coming into contact (remember suffering and pain are not just human-generated--there are unspeakable diseases and illnesses, there are natural disasters, etc) -- all have their place and value, much like Shawn was expressing.

I see things like this though because so far, I've come to the conclusion that there is a teleological (purpose or goal) end -- some kind of intelligence or inherent direction/nature -- to all of this. I have had to believe this myself due to personal wounds from past sexual, physical and emotional abuse though. By believing that there was a reason for that anguish I went through, I can see that without struggling with that pain and suffering, I would have never asked the questions I have, would never have become the person I am. The same could be said at a universal level ... without suffering and pain, the universe could never truly evolve .... or you could say, without suffering and pain, God could not fully know Himself.

All suffering and pain is transitory. It is an experience. Burn your finger and it hurts, but one day it will heal, if allowed (or if severe enough, you might lose your finger). That doesn't mean that we aren't left reeling with the after-effects, but how we handle that is up to us. Sh*t happens -- but what are you going to do about it? If you let the suffering fester inside you, I can guarantee that there will be even more damaging results than the initial experience. It's like letting a wound turn into gangrene and kill you ... all for want of some antiseptic. Getting things in perspective is kind of like antiseptic. It's how you survive and go on to live well.

When you truly understand the nature of suffering, I think that is when you learn compassion and lovingkindness. These are not passive things, but should push one on to actually doing something. In a Buddhist sense, this would mean actively seeking Enlightenment, to be a bodhisattva. In the Christian sense, this would mean actively being Christ-like, modeling our life on his vajra/cutting truth that is also loving.

As for good/bad ... I remember one time getting more drunk than usual (and it takes a lot with me), so drunk that I actually behaved in ways that I later felt were degrading and irresponsible. I felt ashamed and guilty. Then a friend of mine pointed something out. Ok, so I messed up. Just get back on track then. ..... he likened it to meditation. You suddenly have a thought arise which distracts you, perhaps leads you off for quite a while on a bunny trail ... but you shouldn't judge yourself for this. This is the nature of mind. Simply return to meditating. So ... simply return to your center, to where-ever it is you feel you should be. Get over yourself and move on. That's a very hard lesson to learn!

Ultimately, I think the real question we should be asking is not just why do we suffer (as opposed to experiencing pain .. suffering more in the sense of clinging to our experience of pain and reliving it over and over again) ... but also why do we perpetuate suffering in other beings?

Is that because we are sinners or because we fell from Eden and inherit original sin?

Or is it ignorance? If we TRULY understood what we were doing to others, would we inflict it on others? And if we *did* understand that, fully (as I think there are probably some out there who do) and still inflicted pain onto others, then does this derive from our own suffering and pain and our inability to express that anguish any other way? I truly cannot believe that anything or anyone is "evil" but more like someone who is very sick or blind (in more ways than one) and they need our prayers, blessings and compassion more than anything else. I can also see where the Buddha was coming from about seeking to bring enlightenment to all beings.

This does not mean letting them in the meantime have freedom to wreak havoc. It *does* mean cutting through all their crap, their barriers, anger, sado-masochism, hate, ignorance, greed, vice, etc ... and touching with the pointed sword of truth their heart. Locking these kinds of people up in prison doesn't actually do this ... it simply puts off our responsibility to try and help this person until another time, another life, any time but now. Instead, we need to acknowledge that just as we have problems in ourselves, so we do in our society and race, and this cannot be blamed on any disembodied or idealized understanding of "Evil" or "sin". I whole-heartedly disagree with this, and find such concepts degrading to any sense of God or His Creation (or the Universe, or whatever you want to call it all).

These are just snippets of many different thoughts and responses I have to the original question. This sort of topic always challenges my present conceptions and leaves me grasping for a more satisfying understanding. If I understood it perfectly, well, I'd be enlightened wouldn't I?

 

[iBrian]

Apologies for your post getting caught by the anti-spam filters, Jenn - now approved - and welcome to the Interfaith forums.