"This place is dangerous for trying to find truth"

[citizenzen]

I know, but there are some people that you agree with a lot, Chomsky is an example.

AHA! Maybe you're RIGHT! Maybe Tao agrees with Chomsky a little TOO much!

J F C



And just in case anybody wonders, I'm not defending Tao just because he has dreamy blue eyes. I'm defending logic. I'm defending reason. I'm defending honest debate.

The past half-dozen posts from Avi have been dearly lacking in these categories.

I had come to expect better.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I know, but there are some people that you agree with a lot, Chomsky is an example.

Using chomsky as an example then.. I have read some of his political commentary, none of his linguistics, but not sytematicly in the quest of being an expert on the man. There is no school of thinking I have ever come across that has inspired me to nail my colours to the mast. Not because they are bad schools, but because its not how I tic. I am perhaps too chaotic to commit in that way.

Some sources are high quality and others are poor quality, I am looking for the high quality ones.

I find you can find wisdom in the most unlikely and unexpected of places. Quality is a big word.

Not suggesting you do so.

I think that you do. And I'm not saying so confrontationally. Perhaps give a moments thought to why I might interpret that you do?

Actually, Netti makes some of the strongest arguments in this forum. She is a good example of someone who provides sources and then gives her own opinion as well.

I agree. Netti is a formidable poster whom I have the utmost respect for. But she is not above being unreasonable at times.

I can't speak for the other theists, but I am not here to "outhink" others in this forum. I like to hear good ideas, new ideas, and convincing ideas.

Well seems I cannot even slip in a bit of quintessential Scots self-deprication without it sounding supremacist! I do have a problem

On a slight tangent, I have been studying modern ideas in Judaism, you are welcome to read and comment on them in the Judaism sub-forum.

As a gesture of the respect I have been obliged to see grow in me by way of your irrepressible good nature I give you my word, I will look in.

So what I am saying is, out there, in the world of ideas, we have to compete if we want to say something significant. And competition does involve some discipline and effort.

To say something. That is what it is all about. Saying something is a statement that you are not content to be a passive observer. You want to contribute. For all the times here that people say their 'something' and share it how often is it actually heard? Linda earlier stated I was not listening. Is that true? Perhaps I was listening and responding and she did not want to listen. I find again and again both in myself and in others that it comes naturally to criticise in others what you see in yourself. I always find people getting mad at me very illuminating.

Away from the philosophical content of my posts here Avi I have a quite seperate agenda. The writing itself. I try to write precisely and as elequantly as my knowledge of English allows. The writing itself is probably my biggest challenge and one that is entirely personal. I love writing. I have always written prose and poetry of an observational nature, long before the internet and a captive audience Political stuff mostly. Though some of my love poems have melted hearts. I am an artist too Avi. And a traveller. And a do-er I have a set of memories that if I were to put in the form of an autobiography people would think it too intense and therefore a lie. It includes everything from luxury yachts to murder to romance over 33 countries now. Something about the road brings lifes biggest characters before you. You learn a lot about the human condition. Its not all about the big names.

 

[citizenzen]

Hi Paladin, Spinoza was practically kicked out of Judaism:

From wikipedia...

Baruch Spinoza

Baruch or Benedict de Spinoza was a Dutch philosopher of Portuguese Jewish origin. Revealing considerable scientific aptitude, the breadth and importance of Spinoza's work was not fully realized until years after his death. Today, he is considered one of the great rationalists of 17th-century philosophy, laying the groundwork for the 18th century Enlightenment and modern biblical criticism. By virtue of his magnum opus, the posthumous Ethics, in which he opposed Descartes' mind–body dualism, Spinoza is considered to be one of Western philosophy's most important philosophers. Philosopher and historian Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel said of all modern philosophers, "You are either a Spinozist or not a philosopher at all."

Though Spinoza was active in the Dutch Jewish community and extremely well-versed in Jewish texts, his controversial ideas eventually led community leaders to issue a cherem (Hebrew: חרם, a kind of excommunication) against him, effectively dismissing him from Jewish society at age 23. Likewise, all of Spinoza's works were listed on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum (List of Prohibited Books) by the Roman Catholic Church.

Spinoza lived quietly as a lens grinder, turning down rewards and honors throughout his life, including prestigious teaching positions, and gave his family inheritance to his sister. Spinoza's moral character and philosophical accomplishments prompted 20th century philosopher Gilles Deleuze to name him "the 'prince' of philosophers." Spinoza died at the age of 44 of a lung illness, perhaps tuberculosis or silicosis exacerbated by fine glass dust inhaled while plying his trade. Spinoza is buried in the churchyard of the Nieuwe Kerk on Spui in The Hague.​

Avi, does that speak more about Spinoza's adherence to his Jewish faith or the institution's inability to accept his unique perspective?

Aren't you supposed to be a supporter of unique perspectives?

 

[Tao_Equus]

Avi,

You list Spinoza as an atheist?

I think he was a prominant thinker on the journey to modern atheism. He sort of bridges a philosophical divide. And he was certainly a great inspiration to what would become the enlightenment. So I think Avi used his name in a sound context.

 

[citizenzen]

I think he was a prominant thinker on the journey to modern atheism. He sort of bridges a philosophical divide. And he was certainly a great inspiration to what would become the enlightenment. So I think Avi used his name in a sound context.

The key words here are "on the journey". The brief bio that I cribbed from wikipedia said nothing about his rejection of the church or his Jewish faith. His decision to live a simple and private life leads me to believe that his faith played an important role for him. He wasn't rejecting Judaism, if anything he was trying to transform with his unique perspective.

As a typical 48-year-old American, I am not well versed in the figures Avi listed and welcomed the opportunity to expand my knowledge... even if it's just a wiki-width of wisdom.

 

[Paladin]

Hi Paladin, Spinoza was practically kicked out of Judaism:



And I think the Catholic Church was not too pleased with him either. He was one of the advocates of pantheism and panenthesim, but we can probably agree he was an iconoclast.

Do you agree with this ?

I imagine a slew of epithets that could be applied to ol Spinoza, but anyone who claims: "The eternal wisdom of God...has shown itself forth in all things, but chiefly in the mind of man, and most of all in Jesus Christ"
( The Story Of Philosophy, Durant)
surely couldn't be counted as a proper atheist.

 

[Paladin]

I think he was a prominant thinker on the journey to modern atheism. He sort of bridges a philosophical divide. And he was certainly a great inspiration to what would become the enlightenment. So I think Avi used his name in a sound context.

Yes, from that perspective the context though possibly accidental would be appropriate.
I like the idea of a bridge David, well thought out as usual. Could it be a Hegelian bridge perhaps?

 

[Avi]

Away from the philosophical content of my posts here Avi I have a quite seperate agenda. The writing itself. I try to write precisely and as elequantly as my knowledge of English allows. The writing itself is probably my biggest challenge and one that is entirely personal. I love writing. I have always written prose and poetry of an observational nature, long before the internet and a captive audience Political stuff mostly. Though some of my love poems have melted hearts. I am an artist too Avi. And a traveller. And a do-er I have a set of memories that if I were to put in the form of an autobiography people would think it too intense and therefore a lie. It includes everything from luxury yachts to murder to romance over 33 countries now. Something about the road brings lifes biggest characters before you. You learn a lot about the human condition. Its not all about the big names.

Now there is the best of what comes out of an interfaith forum !!

Finding what you love and being able to do it here, letting others see what that is, good for you !!

Well, we have had some discussions about Chomsky and his views on Israel before, and I am sure we will have more of those too.

From what I can see, I agree with nearly all of Chomsky's views, except his views on Israel. I will admit that as I study his ideas about Israel further, it makes me think that I must examine my own understanding of this situation more deeply. Perhaps that is an important role which a brilliant atheist can play in influencing others !!

 

[Avi]

Snoopy is an old timer here who recently left without saying goodbye. You remind me of him with sarcasm turned to maximum.

Oh, now there is an interesting speculation. Snoops back already in the form of a mime, I like it . And "the breeze" does sort of sound like an alias. And his English is pretty good for a Valencian .

The Breeze: ¿Puedes probar a nosotros que usted no es el Snoop? Gracias !

 

[Avi]

WHAT?!

Have you asked this from anybody else in the forum?

Seems like an unreasonable request to me.

Perhaps you are right here, CZ, I have high expectations of Tao, and yourself for that matter as well. Are my expectations misplaced ??

 

[Avi]

I'm sorry.

I didn't realize you meant the complimentary kind of poke in the eye.

My bad.

You are still misunderstanding my point about the poke in the eye. I was not suggesting it is a complimentry poke either. What my point was, is that Tao does poke his finger in the eye of the theist and that this act is often warranted.

 

[Avi]

And just in case anybody wonders, I'm not defending Tao just because he has dreamy blue eyes. I'm defending logic. I'm defending reason. I'm defending honest debate.

The past half-dozen posts from Avi have been dearly lacking in these categories.

I had come to expect better.

I disagree, I have responded to your earlier posts and I think my viewpoint is logical and clear.

As an example which I mentioned to Tao earlier, I have tried to explain my viewpoint on issues of modern Judaism. There are three threads in the Judaism sub-forum titled: Reform, Renewal and Reconstructionism. After doing some research in these areas, I have given my own thoughts about their validity. These issues are also on-going topics and I am not suggesting that my views on these topics are final.

I am suggesting that Tao, and perhaps yourself, as well, try to provide similar arguments to support his/your atheist views.

 

[Avi]

Here's the thing, though Avi. Because you're bound to defend your own corner of speculation you wind up having to defend all the other corners- even if you're pretty sure they're utter crap.

Although I will strongly defend my position, I haven't defended the "other corners" in any way. My position is a theist with a strong foundation in science and engineering. That makes many of the atheist positions reasonable from my viewpoint. I certainly do not defend any position which I believe is "utter crap".

You're forced to make bedfellows of cranks and idiots and follow along silently while they make you look like a nimrod by association. Doesn't that get tiring?

Take care Chris.

 

[Tao_Equus]

The key words here are "on the journey". The brief bio that I cribbed from wikipedia said nothing about his rejection of the church or his Jewish faith. His decision to live a simple and private life leads me to believe that his faith played an important role for him. He wasn't rejecting Judaism, if anything he was trying to transform with his unique perspective.

As a typical 48-year-old American, I am not well versed in the figures Avi listed and welcomed the opportunity to expand my knowledge... even if it's just a wiki-width of wisdom.

Maybe he was just scared. We are lucky, we have access to all the thinking since then and the foundation that has been built for us to stand on is easily overlooked. I think from what I have read in bits and pieces over the years he was scared. He was given ultimatums and threatened grievously. I think it an irrelevant question whether or not he was an atheist for in his day there were no actual atheists. Everybody thought in terms of their quest as being to understand the nature of god. It was actually not possible to write as we do in modern terms, they did not have the vocabulary. What Spinoza did was trigger an explosion in vocabulary. I think the pantheists/panantheists have to attribute him as their founding father but my ~feel~ for his work is that they would still be making something of it that he himself did not.
From wiki...
The consequences of Spinoza's system also envisages a God that does not rule over the universe by providence, but a God which itself is the deterministic system of which everything in nature is a part. Thus, according to this understanding of Spinoza's system, God would be the natural world and have no personality.

It is this that sets Spinoza as a part and that created first the enlightenment then modern atheism. He is a pivotal character and Avi included him entirely justly.

Yes, from that perspective the context though possibly accidental would be appropriate.
I like the idea of a bridge David, well thought out as usual. Could it be a Hegelian bridge perhaps?

Like this one?

Helgeland Bridge

 

[Tao_Equus]

You are still misunderstanding my point about the poke in the eye. I was not suggesting it is a complimentry poke either. What my point was, is that Tao does poke his finger in the eye of the theist and that this act is often warranted.

Thank you! I think so too. I know I am a bit of a handful to some here but I think I help perform an important function too. My selfish need to communicate as I do from a material rationalist position gives others the opportunity to bounce their beliefs off an alternative interpretation to their own. All I really offer is choice. Not everybody wants to hear it but some do...for those that do not...well there is always the "ignore" option. Of course some people are more than willing to perform forum suicide and leave with thinly veiled blame throwing in their death throws. I know I present challenges in both content and personality but you cannot make other people like you or your thinking. So I do not try.

 

[Janz]

I, Brian I appreciate what you're trying to do and there are people who like the knockabout type of debate that happens here. I don't find it particularly useful. I've been an atheist, I've studied the world through the portal of science, I've looked at a lot of new age stuff and buddhism, I've even attended christian masses but now I'm off into something much more dependent on personal testimony than grand theories. I think this may relate to some here but only a minority who are shouted down by some very belligerent and ignorant individuals. So I'll tidy up my personal conversations and be on my way with thanks to those who have been helpful in the last few weeks.

breeze,
Please don't go as we need more postmodern thinkers on this forum. Earl and Snoopy were two others with whom I could relate and now they say they aren't going to post. Besides wil, most of the other strong theists seem to have disappeared as well. All that is left here is the mutual admiration club of Tao; Avi and Citizenzen. Very onesided..I am sorry that I haven't posted more but I have argued postmodernity vs modernity until I am blue in the face and at times get weary of the snide sarcastic responses that are thrown around. Besides path of one who represented a strong clear voice for theism decided to go on to other endeavors and she could articulate so much better than moi.. On second thought, if her thinking could not peel away the blinders, then maybe retreat is something to consider. I would like to hear more of your journey. I hope that you are reading this.

 

[citizenzen]

All that is left here is the mutual admiration club of Tao; Avi and Citizenzen. Very onesided..

You've apparently skipped over my less-than-admiring posts aimed at Avi in this thread.

 

[Avi]

You've apparently skipped over my less-than-admiring posts aimed at Avi in this thread.

Now hold on there CZ, I took your comments as true admiration , you mean that was not intended .

In that case I am going to have to get out the heavy artillary, are you ready to discuss the Greek and Egyptian views on theism ?

 

[Tao_Equus]

All that is left here is the mutual admiration club of Tao; Avi and Citizenzen.

Most curious. You are the 2nd last person to give me 'reputation'. I think CZ never has and Avi once, some time ago.
It is the nature of a discussion board that you do not always get out of it what you hoped for. Other times you do. And your friends and those you cannot like come and go in spite of the way you might like things to be. I miss Snoopy and Kim and Francis....and others. But this implication that we three, Avi, CZ and I, are somehow responsible is nothing if not churlish. I think Earl knows that I like him, how can I not? He has after all sought out so many of my posts as a platform for his one man expansion of the English dictionary. I try pretty hard to stay off the faith specific threads. But belief interests me a lot so I do belong here as much as anyone.

 

[Janz]

@Avi,
I have a few Reformed Jewish friends who are atheists and agnostics. What camp do you favor?

@CZ: I thought the two of you cleared up the earlier misunderstanding.

@ Tao: Of course I enjoy your posts even if I disagree with them and some I do agree with as well.. As far as the three of you being responsible, I don't really know as I can only speculate that somehow Snoopy and Earl are feeling disenfranchised. I didn't say that you shouldn't post and you have a right to do so but I just noticed that most of the theists have left or are leaving.