Re-examination of Universal Reconciliation

[Dondi]

In light of discussion with FaithfulServant in I’ve become an Evangelistic Universalist thread; I felt it necessary to start another thread to address a specific issue. The purpose of this new thread is to re-examine point-by-point Universal Reconciliation claims that FaithfulServant expressed with concern in regard to my aforementioned announcement.

NOTE: I would appreciate it that any responses be within keeping of the thread’s intended purpose. It should reflect an ongoing debate between the fundamentalist position and the universal reconciliationist position. Other insights are welcome, but I’d like to see some consistency here, please.

I’ve been accused of twisting scripture and taking scripture out of context. I do not take such accusations lightly, nor is it pleasant to be on the brunt end of such. On the other hand, one should be brave and tactful enough to consider whether such accusations are true. I am willing to admit if I make a mistake.

On the issue of scripture twisting, the term gives the connotation of one intentionally using scripture in order to suit one’s own objective. It smacks of the method Satan employed in tempting Jesus in the wilderness. In that case there was a willingness to deliberately deceive in order to lead someone astray.

I do not feel as if I’ve been deliberately misleading. All I’m trying to do is make sense of what I see as a discrepancy between what I see in the nature of God, that is One that is in essence, Love ( John 4:8) and Merciful (Lam. 3:22-23), yet Just (Ps. 98:9) and Fair (Romans 2:11), with what I perceive as a punishment that is neither of these things. Such conflict can and does affect one’s perception of God and in how one relates to God. If we are made in His Image and are exhorted to be Christ-like, then the end result of that relationship will produce a product that exemplifies the Divine Nature that has been promised to us to be partaker’s of. How can we be partakers of that Divine nature in light in such inequitable and merciless punishment? Are we to exemplify this same attitude?

And I now will speak about the issue of taking scripture out of context . My efforts in understanding scripture are contingent in considering the whole counsel of God. And that is ironically the very case that has led me to this point. I’ve always, like the Bereans, tried to be careful to examine the scriptures to see that these things are so. I am careful to consider that context of the passage in light of who wrote it, who was it written for, and what kind of background does the said passage reside. It is my habit to read thoroughly verses, even whole chapters, before and after the text to ensure I understand somewhat that backdrop of the message. And I compare this with what I read elsewhere in scripture.

But this is sometimes lacking in evangelistic circles. For example of what I mean, we can look no further than the evangelistic tool used to win souls commonly called “The Romans Road”. The Romans Road often appears on gospel tracts used by churches to spread a simple message of salvation. They consist of mainly four verses (Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8, Romans 10:13). Now I have no objection in using this to reach people in outreach ministries in order to share the basic gospel message. But its weakness lies in the last verse:

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” – Romans 10:13

Now on the outset, this seems like an excellent verse to exhort one to call on Christ. And indeed, it is effective to that end sometimes. The problem is that this verse is smack dab in the middle on a three-chapter discourse (Romans 9-11) by the Apostle Paul about the Sovereignty of God in plight of Israel and their eventual return to Him.

Furthermore, this verse is actually a quote out of Joel 2:32. For context (ahem), let’s look at the passage in whole:

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

It is clear here that the passage is apocalyptic in nature, but speaks of the eventual redemption of Israel (which was the intended subject in Romans 9-11). So in reality, the verse isn’t talking about general salvation in Christ at all, but rather Israel’s eventual deliverance. Talk about taking scripture out of context!

I know this isn't a passage concerning universal reconciliation, but if we are going to further, I should like a fundamentalist response to the above passage in light of the context and please explain why it is used in the gospel out of it's intended meaning?

 

[Faithfulservant]

Hi Dondi

First off I want to say that I am scared to post on this any further because I am a very sensitive person and not hard as some of these others, and there are cruel people here. My feelings are easily hurt and its distressful and I have already been in tears since reading these posts.. I am going forward with this dialogue with you because it’s important to me that we do this because I have a love for you that transcends this forum. I do not know all the answers and you are challenging me to dig deep into my bible. So please bear with me and I will bear with you and we will take this bit by bit.

When I study my bible, I try to do several things. I pray for wisdom and open eyes and then God feeds me. Because of instances in my past when I was caught unaware with false teachings, I am very careful to ask for discernment and God is ALWAYS faithful to me. He gives me the scripture needed as His way of speaking to me through the doubts. You know and I know that an unbeliever wouldn’t understand that. It would be crazy talk. I also know that you hear the voice of God as well as I do.

I see what you are saying about context.. but something I have come to learn while studying the Word is that God repeats Himself when He wants something understood. Example when Jesus said “Verily Verily I say unto you” Its intent is to make sure to listen up and heed His voice. You can always be assured of the doctrines and the promises of God because its repeated in several places. Also.. I will disregard chapters and verses because those were put in by man and do God a diservice sometimes. In addition we can see that scripture is multi dimensional .. We believe the Jesus was prophesized in the OT yet you ask a Jew and they have an answer to every prophesy by who was speaking and in what context it was spoken in… so if you listen to them.. Jesus was not prophesized about in Isaiah or Psalms not to mention those apocolyptic verses directing the Jews to call upon the name of the Lord for Salvation. So Psalm 91 that is a promise to ME not just to the writer of the psalm…

Psalm91: 14 "Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him; I will set him on high, because he has known My name. 15 He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him and honor him. 16 With long life I will satisfy him, And show him My salvation."

That is God speaking to ME.. do you see what I mean?? That is meat.. that the Words can first of all be general words that anyone can read and understand but the meat is when God makes them personal for the individual. That chapter has literally saved my life on more than one occasion. Noone can tell me otherwise.

Psalm 55:16As for me, I will call upon God, And the Lord shall save me

Psalm 116:13 I will take up the cup of salvation, And call upon the name of the Lord.

Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

Matthew 8:23-27
23 Now when He got into a boat, His disciples followed Him. 24 And suddenly a great tempest arose on the sea, so that the boat was covered with the waves. But He was asleep. 25 Then His disciples came to Him and awoke Him, saying, "Lord, save us! We are perishing!" 26 But He said to them, "Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?" Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm. 27 So the men marveled, saying, "Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"

The “meat” of this passage to me is through troubling times in my life when Im tossed about by lifes storms and drowning I can call upon the Lord and He is my Strength and my Salvation and He delivers me through everything. That’s the passage speaking to me personally… but anyone can read it and see the naked words on a page with no depth and that is why Jesus said He spoke in parables. So to limit the power of the Word of God by listing a verse and making it that bare naked word on a page.. is not letting God speak His love to you through the words. If you do not have that conversation with Him in your own meditation of the word I would be surprised. I would also be very sad.

And heres even another one

Matthew 14:22-33
22 Immediately Jesus made His disciples get into the boat and go before Him to the other side, while He sent the multitudes away. 23 And when He had sent the multitudes away, He went up on the mountain by Himself to pray. Now when evening came, He was alone there. 24 But the boat was now in the middle of the sea, tossed by the waves, for the wind was contrary. 25 Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. 26 And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, "It is a ghost!" And they cried out for fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid." 28 And Peter answered Him and said, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water." 29 So He said, "Come." And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. 30 But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!" 31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?" 32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. 33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."


I could also use the whole “Branch” analogy that we are grafted onto the branch and share in the promises that comes with the new covenant. That Israel was removed and will be regrafted in at the return of Jesus Christ. Im not sure WHICH of the “fundamentalist” beliefs would satisy all I can do is be genuine and tell you what I honestly believe. I believe that I am a co-heir to the throne of God I believe that I have been adopted in by my faith in His Son, Jesus Christ and because of that faith I share in the promises of His people. I do not believe I have replaced His people but that His people in their temporary rejection of their messiah have made it possible for me to be adopted but as the prodigal son.. Israel will return into their Fathers arms… forgiven by their faith in the Son of God.

I have called upon the name of the Lord and have been saved. Not just my salvation but when I was almost killed by a truck going 40 mph so.. take that like you want it or simply discard it. God doesn’t need to prove Himself to me and further lol . And by using your reasoning.. Im not a Jew and its not Armageddon.. so whats up? Right?

I also failed to post all the obvious like Jesus saying He is the only way.. and the narrow gate and all that. I figure that’s not necessary but how you are discarding what Jesus said and reading into something Paul said is very strange to me. Have you asked yourself that?

 

[iBrian]

When I read your post, FF, it made me feel for you that you care so much, that you felt genuinely distressed for Dondi. I greatly respect you, and your opinions.

But what are you actually upset about? Why are you trying so hard to make Dondi change his mind?

Is it really so reprehensible that someone should seek to believe in a God that is all merciful, and loving for all of humanity? Or must it be that God must be a cruel and barbarous figure who commits most of the earth's population to eternal torture on the pretext of belief?

Truly I am the one upset for you, FF, that you feel that only through fear and threat must God love us.

Perhaps you are indeed right - perhaps God is entirely as you see.

I haven't walked the earth as much as I should have, but I have long since learned there are many people, with wholly different beliefs and outlooks, who share a single virtue in that their actions seek to help humanity through compassion.

Not through crying for their souls, but instead by helping their earthly existence, by providing comfort and help when we need it.

Truly it is a strange thing that all of these people, no matter who they helped, no matter how much compassion they have for others, will be considered fit to be judged and condemned because they do not believe a certain thing.

What we believe is not important, how we act is all important.

Truly I would grieve for you if you felt that what is more important for Dondi is to subscribe to a certain thought, rather than act a certain way.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Brian

God commissioned us to spread the gospel and giving a false gospel is a horrible thing and promises horrible things.

Please let me try to explain it

the gospel is that God is holy and cannot dwell with sin man is too sinful to dwell in Gods presence so God devised a master plan to send His Son to do one act that would make it possible for man to dwell in Gods presence or have a relationship with Him. The conditions are this.. you have to know what His son did and get it. that one act makes us clean so we can dwell with God. but you have to get it. and it changes you. forever.

Dondis way is that it doesnt matter that Jesus came and died on the cross.. Its ok everyones going to be saved in the end. If thats the case why would God allow Himself to become one of US and to be tortured if it didnt mean anything. Why do I even try to be more like Him if Im going to be like him.

Look at the world.. there are consequences to every decision we make.. every thing we do. God did that for a reason.

God wants a willing people that WANT a relationship with Him. If you dont want it now in this life... why the heck would you want it later when EVERYTHING is about Him and His glory?

God came to this earth and DIED a more horrible death.. and to top it off for a time He was seperated from His Father who He had been with for eternity. To know perfect love and to be denied it would be unbearable yet he bore it for our sake, and Dondi claiming Jesus Christ made it somehow Less that it was for nothing because it all "works out" in the end. and its not true and theres no biblical basis for it and that is why Im upset. To me its a horrible lie meant to decieve.

GOd HAS compassion.. He came here as a lessser being and allowed His creation to humiliate scorn and torture Him. He did it so we could have Life through that selfless act. Why in the face of that can one not simply CHOOSE Him rather than expect an easy out in the end so they can live some crappy useless life here and learn absolutely nothing about Him.

Its not about US its about Him.

Can you not see why this is so important that I cant let Dondi undervalue Jesus Christs sacrifice?

We as humans want more and more and more... we get something and its still not enough..we want it all. its horrible to me.

I have to go now.. I hope that explains where I am coming from.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Perhaps Christ's sacrifice extends beyond our personal beliefs and human imaginatians. Perhaps what he accomplished WAS for all mankind despite what we believe about Him. Perhaps the love he displayed for mankind is not limited to only those whom will believe in the man, but for all people despite the religious philosophy they have chosen to believe.

Then again, perhaps what Christ accomplished on the cross was in vain. There are literally millions of people whom do not adhere to the fundamentalist theology. I don't know, FS ... I'm one who believes that what we "believe" means little in the grand scheme of things. It is our condition of heart and our willingness to act in love for those we share our world with that matters most [imo].

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I find the combined Bible quite confusing. It's hard for me to make one coherent God out of it. In the NT it says that the measure of God's perfection is tht he is entirely impartial: sending the rain upon the just and unjust. It's hard to square that with the God who promises to place the enemies of Israel under her feet, or the God who strikes people dead for holding back on their tithe, or reaching out to steady the ark.

There does seem to be a theme of God expecting unthinking obedience. Think of Abraham being commanded to sacrifice Isaac, or how Saul lost the Lord's favor. This seems to go along with the injunction that "there is a way which seems right to a man, but in the end thereof is destruction." IOW, "just do as I say", signed, God.

Chris

 

[shawn]

I totally get why FS responds that way.
I had a similar experience with a relative when I got into a discussion as to why I had left the church and was studying Judaism.
They actually wept as they thought I was going to go to hell as a result of falling away from Christ and the Church.
I felt like a heel, but I knew that I had to continue.
Very similar.

 

[Saltmeister]

First off I want to say that I am scared to post on this any further because I am a very sensitive person and not hard as some of these others, and there are cruel people here. My feelings are easily hurt and its distressful and I have already been in tears since reading these posts.

Faithfulservant,

This post has made me think of all the ways I have been unkind to you. I would like you to know that I never had any intention to bully and intimidate. I am not a beast or monster. It just disturbs me when I see on the Internet all the sites expounding on so-called orthodox, fundamentalist and traditional "Christian views." It just makes me a little angry because of what they seem to represent. I can appreciate them explaining how one establishes a relationship with God, but I can't agree with how so many of them seem to expect us to "talk about it" and "express ourselves" the way they do. It's like there's a technical jargon to go with Christianity and if you don't use the same jargon, if you use different words or don't address the same set of ideas, they deem you "not of the Way." It is not a group mentality based on community, but a group mentality based on conformity.

I feel that this kind of Christianity is patronising and condescending. What makes me even more uncomfortable is when they always try to look happy, as if they are always happy. You insult them, you criticise them, you disparage them, but they smile and they laugh back at you, as if you can't hurt them. They don't seem to hurt or feel pain. They have this idea of a "model Christian" where everything is a rosy picture and everything is perfect. Some of them have appeared on this message board a few times and Brian has expelled them.

When I see you speaking in many of the same ways they do, it makes me think of you as one of them. But I realise that you are not like them in the sense that you do hurt and you do feel pain. There is a sense of humility in being able to hurt and feel pain and to be intimidated, not that I intended to intimidate.

I believe humility isn't just for God. It's for people as well. You don't just talk about humility for God, you demonstrated that you can be humble around people as well.

It still makes me uncomfortable about the way "fundamentalism" works, but though you appear to live under that philosophy, I have no intention of persecuting and oppressing you. You just don't seem like one of the bad guys. Jesus doesn't like it when we oppress and persecute people, so I am not going to do that. It may seem from that that it makes me the bad guy, but my anger at fundamentalism is that it often destroys friendships and relationships when it's unnecessary. Fundamentalism often causes a lot of persecution and oppression. It's divisive and tears people and communities apart over arguments like this.

Under fundamentalism, ideology and doctrine are more important than people and community. Logic is more important than the emotions. The head becomes more important than the heart.

But I am satisfied that you are not like that. I don't want to be the enemy of heart. I may have been a little antagonistic and also a little inconsiderate and insensitive but that was because I wanted to know the truth. I didn't want to know about the logic of a fundamentalist. I wanted to meet the real person, and I am not the enemy of people. I am satisfied that you are not like the people I abhor and therefore not my enemy. Likewise I am not your's.

I was going to comment on the rest of your post but considering that you felt so alienated by what happened before I decided to just let it go for a while.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Yesterday Brian brought up to me the fact that Im trying to persuade Dondi to my way of thinking and I guess I am. According to whats generally accepted here regarding Christianity Im in the wrong. I don’t participate in the Christian forum much anymore because its not really the Christian forum in my opinion.. its become something else entirely. I have stated previously in another post this fact and that the only time anyone is going to see me get worked up was in the case of Salvation. I firmly and totally believe that the question of Salvation is at the heart of this debate with Dondi. Salvation is really the only reason I bother reading anything here anymore because that’s ALL I care about, the salvation of everyone here. I would like to say that I don’t care what the lot of you think about me… but I do care because Ive been here so long that I feel I know enough about each of you to care about the individual and not just the words written. That is Christ in me because frankly some of you have not been very nice to me. So after a night thinking on it and in light of the fact that this is his home Im totally willing to back out of this.. but I will not take back anything Ive said. I believe what I am saying is totally and 100% true. My heart was in the right place and I know that Dondi knows this. I just want to leave one more scripture behind that spoke to my heart.

Romans 14:13-15
Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.

 

[shawn]

One positive thing I can say about christianity, is how a percentage of the people involved are motivated by the beliefs to actually grow a heart and care about other people.
That is very good to see.
But to balance that out, it is primarily motivated by a fear.
A natural instinct is self-preservation.
Dying is the unknown, and all living things will prefer to live over dying.
Another component is that of REWARD vs PUNISHMENT and all can attest that all living things would rather be rewarded than punished....it is just natural.
Living creatures crave reward and fear punishment.
Success is good and desired and failure is bad and to be avoided.
So to craft beliefs which tap into these powerful motivators of natural impulse is very useful.


The positive gain which I see in Christianity is (for me) offset by the means which that was obtained.
And this is the basis for what Dondi has been discussing in regards to a loving God who makes a game such as Christian doctrine describes, which is a wicked game and not indicative of a loving God at all.

We can see the emotional effect which this way of thinking induces on nice people, right here.
This is one aspect of the emotional and psychological damage which Christian doctrine will and does cause.
Thousands of years of this has created millions of victims and countless cases of unnecessary emotional drama and mental suffering.
But I must be fair and point out that Christianity is not alone in this pogram, as there are many other religions which are happy to induce guilt and fear and apply the carrot or stick theology.

(*Don't read that I am picking on you FS, as I am not. You are not your beliefs, no matter how much you identify with them and how fervently you believe them.
It would be nice to see more people who had a heart which cares like you.)

 

[Dondi]

The positive gain which I see in Christianity is (for me) offset by the means which that was obtained.
And this is the basis for what Dondi has been discussing in regards to a loving God who makes a game such as Christian doctrine describes, which is a wicked game and not indicative of a loving God at all.

We can see the emotional effect which this way of thinking induces on nice people, right here.
This is one aspect of the emotional and psychological damage which Christian doctrine will and does cause.
Thousands of years of this has created millions of victims and countless cases of unnecessary emotional drama and mental suffering.
But I must be fair and point out that Christianity is not alone in this pogram, as there are many other religions which are happy to induce guilt and fear and apply the carrot or stick theology.

I think it unfair to describe the gamet of Christianity as a collective set of basket cases. You are painting us as emotionally and mentally unhinged when all we are trying to do is follow the God that we believe in. It's much more than carrot and stick theology. It's about understanding how God loves us and how we are supposed to love Him. Agreed, there is the initial fear, but that fear is based on the fact that something is not right with us to begin with. Once we accept and know the love of God through Christ, and understand about God's expectation of us, then we can operate out of love. It's all the story from cursing to blessing. I wouldn't have known true love without the Love of God and His Mercy and Forgiveness. But if God is also a God of Justice, which one ought to expect if God is equally loving, then fair warning should be preached on the rooftops.

Faithfulservant recognizes the danger of this. That's why she is so adamant that we see it too. Salvation is an intregal part of the Christian's life, inseparable in the walk with God. It's not just about the Wrath of God, but it is about the Rightness of God and how we are short of this as autonomous creatures of His Creation. She's found a love for people here and is deeply concerned with everyone's spiritual condition. And we ought to be also. Afterall we're just people. People on an internet forum who have gotten to know each other and each other's personalities.

I would like to say that I don’t care what the lot of you think about me… but I do care because Ive been here so long that I feel I know enough about each of you to care about the individual and not just the words written. That is Christ in me because frankly some of you have not been very nice to me. So after a night thinking on it and in light of the fact that this is his home Im totally willing to back out of this.. but I will not take back anything Ive said. I believe what I am saying is totally and 100% true. My heart was in the right place and I know that Dondi knows this. I just want to leave one more scripture behind that spoke to my heart.

Faithfulservant, I know I have caused you grief. I hope you read what I wrote in your PM. (you did get it, didn't you?). I don't want to be the cause of you running off, because you have been one of the pillars in this forum. You have high convictions and I admire that. Don't let anyone take that from you, no matter how 'fundamental' you are. I know you love God and can see that love in you. I'd really hope that you don't turn from here. I'd feel bad if you do. Don't be afraid to challenge me. I am listening...

 

[Faithfulservant]

Oh Im not going anywhere. I know in my heart that this is my ministry.. this forum with all these wonderfully lost people that need to know the tender loving compassion of a God that knows our individual pain and experienced all of it, Himself.

I take strength from people like you dondi because Im not alone here in my love for the Lord and we are to share one anothers burdens.

God has allowed me to see the pain and hurt of the people behind the cruelty so its very easy for me to get over it and continue. We remember what it was like to hurt, dont we. Its a lonely voice that yearns to be heard and understood.

I got your PM and you have one for yourself.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Salty.. no worries we are good. If you could feel what I feel then you would understand why someone believes in what I believe. Thats why I understand because we both come from different places and theres no judgement on my part.. just love and hope

 

[Faithfulservant]

lol just call me Little Bo Peep.

 

[iBrian]

Yesterday Brian brought up to me the fact that Im trying to persuade Dondi to my way of thinking and I guess I am. According to whats generally accepted here regarding Christianity Im in the wrong.

Oh, there's no right or wrong Christianity here - simply diversity, which reflects the fact that views held as Christian are very diverse.

I think I've stepped in to help protect your right to your own specific-Christian viewpoint before (it may not feel like it, but I've drawn attention to your postings before for their general respect and consideration).

What worried me was the possible idea that you may have been seeking to impose your own view of Christianity on a person with a different view.

While I expect banter, even criticisms, across and within faiths, because I believe what we do is more important than what we believe, then there should be no grounds for trying to change another's faith here through coercion.

What's more, the emotional element used in your earlier appeal - although certainly genuine from what I know of you - could be perceived very negatively, especially in conjunction with an appeal.

We appeal to people not to do physical harm to themselves - but when we appeal to people not to have different spiritual opinions, that raises concerns.

Anyway, just wanted to address a couple of pointers raised in this thread about the actual discussion taking place, but don't wish to derail this thread any further. I don;t want to impose my own spiritual views here, but neither would I like to read anything that looks like a direct challenge to anyone's faith.

 

[Saltmeister]

According to whats generally accepted here regarding Christianity Im in the wrong.

I was a little hostile because you were saying things that made you sound like a "fundamentalist."

For the record, I don't regard "fundamentalism" wrong with regards to beliefs, just impractical and not constructive with regards to the philosophy of how to derive one's beliefs and particularly the way they project their beliefs into wider society.

To me a fundamentalist atheist is just as bad as a fundamentalist Christian. A fundie Christian who leaves Christianity and becomes a fundie atheist to me is just the same. He is the same in terms of being fundamentalist. A fundie atheist can be just as patronising and condescending as a fundie Christian. He may have changed his beliefs, but the value he attaches to his beliefs and the attitude he has toward them is the same. He wanted to impose his beliefs on the world before and he still does even though they have changed.

The exact opposite of the fundamentalist is the politician who never really has any "fundamental" beliefs. The politician changes his "beliefs" all the time to manipulate people and get what he wants. To a politician, a belief is only as good as the money, the votes or the power and popularity that comes from them. But no matter how many times he changes his "beliefs" he is still a politician.

The trouble with fundamentalism is that it practically makes your beliefs useless. There could be merits in being an atheist or Christian but the stronger and more arrogantly you project your beliefs, the more it seems that the narcissism and vanity of the person with the beliefs becomes more important than the belief itself.

Like Brian said, it becomes not so much what you believe but what you do.

I don’t participate in the Christian forum much anymore because its not really the Christian forum in my opinion.. its become something else entirely.

To me, it is Christian. It just isn't the kind of "fellowship" that you might want. Some of us are just tired of the same old mantra that "Jesus died for your sins . . . Jesus is your saviour," or talking about the Second Coming and End-Time Bible Prophecies.

I think there are enough "fellowships" out there on the Internet that do that.

It's more like an "interfaith Christian fellowship." I don't know about others, but I don't really have an interest in "recasting" Christianity from a New Age, Buddhist, Taoist or other Eastern perspective. But I do have an interest in seeing how it fits into Judaism, and to a lesser extent, Islam. On the other hand I don't really mind people quoting sayings from Buddhism, Taoism, etc. It just isn't why I'm here on this forum.

But it has more to do with just keeping people like you happy. I believe that while Christianity can be compared to non-Abrahamic religions, I think Christianity should still just be Christianity. The exception is Judaism and I think Judaism is becoming increasingly relevant as we look deeper into the politics of early Christianity.

That is Christ in me because frankly some of you have not been very nice to me.

Bullies tend not to know they are bullies. How could we know we were being abusive to you? We do this to each other all the time. It's become normal. We're used to it.

But to balance that out, it is primarily motivated by a fear. A natural instinct is self-preservation.

Is that not true of life in general? Fear of dying and not having made your life meaningful? What is it that drives people to seek wealth? I say much of that has to do with jealousy and envy. That is the substitute of guilt in this case. You see others living in mansions, driving Rolls Royce's, being married to a beautiful woman, having a girlfriend, having great sex and you want the same. The American Dream, the dream of home ownership, the perfect marriage, the high life . . . who ever asked people to live this way? It's called capitalism and many of us are sucked into it from childhood. It's also called hedonism.

Lack of achievement makes you guilty so you fight harder to compete against others for wealth and success.

It is fear of judgment from the god of money, capitalism and achievement.

It's much more than carrot and stick theology. It's about understanding how God loves us and how we are supposed to love Him. Agreed, there is the initial fear, but that fear is based on the fact that something is not right with us to begin with.

I think the carrot and stick thing needs to be put in context.

The Israel of antiquity lived under different politics and economics. In economic terms, the people were poor and life was hard. This made justice all the more important.

Unlike today's Western democracies, justice was not an institution set up under the principle of Separation of Powers and nor was it a secular authority. It was a religious one. Not only was justice pursued by religion as well as a religious authority, it was pursued by a religious people. The people were supposed to be intimately involved in the goals of justice.

The economics made ancient Israel much like South-East Asian countries where there are a multitude of executions each year. But even in the U.S. some states still endorse the death penalty.

To say that there is no "carrot and stick" philosophy in Western culture is to ignore the reality of Western society. Justice still needs to be served. What is different is the economics and politics. In a secular justice system operating under the principle of Separation of Powers, justice is delegated to a particular organisation rather than the community being intimately involved in it, let alone religion being involved in it. In ancient Israel you had more guilt because you felt responsible for the well-being of others in your community.

In today's Western societies, driven by capitalism and individualism, you couldn't care less about your neighbour. That makes you feel less guilty as a person. Your neighbour needs you less. He could pretty much be able to take care of himself. Your neighbour gets social security benefits.

Consider how much environmental degradation capitalism causes. Consider how hard people must work in poorer countries to produce the consumer goods you buy. Millions of people work in sweat shops just so that you get to live your life in luxury. No wonder you feel less guilty. You didn't have to suffer as much as they did.

Think geopolitically.

We are sinning more now without knowing about it. This is the worst kind of sin to have: silent sins.

But heck I am so selfish I don't even feel like lending a hand. That is how corrupt we have become.

 

[Dondi]

I also failed to post all the obvious like Jesus saying He is the only way.. and the narrow gate and all that. I figure that’s not necessary but how you are discarding what Jesus said and reading into something Paul said is very strange to me. Have you asked yourself that?

I'd be glad to address those. I never said Jesus wasn't the only way or narrow gate. I believe all that will be saved will be saved through Christ. The disagreement is when the Blood of Christ is applied. I contend that the sufficiency of Christ extends beyond the grave, which is why I don't believe hell is eternal, though hell is necessary for the purpose of justice.

Which brings me to the first passages we'll discuss in the area of Universal Reconcilation.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." - Romans 5:18

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." - I Corinthians 15:22-23

These two passages are similiar in structure in that it speaks of the condition of Man upon the Fall and the condition of Man upon Restoration. Specifically, I direct you attention to the word 'all' in both passages. In the first passage, the first 'all' speaks to judgment of every man to condemnation, while the second 'all' speaks of righteousness as a free gift to justification of life. Likewise in the second passage. the first 'all' speaks of the entire human race dying in Adam, while the second 'all' speaks of the entire human race being made alive in Christ.

If one is going to be consistent in the use of the word 'all', then we need to be consistent throughout it's usage. Therefore, since all die in Adam, all will be made alive in Christ. For what reason is there to suppose that since all die in Adam, some will be made alive in Christ?