Selfish Altruism

T

Tao_Equus

Guest
A few times over the years I have dared suggest that at least in part that the more palatable aspects of religious belief are driven not by a genuine altruism but by a very selfish set of motivations. I should state that, in my opinion, such selfishness is not inherently wrong, misguided nor destructive - it is not a slight but a statement of fact.
To get a background idea of what I am talking about it would be useful to read the following article:
Fair play: Monkeys share our sense of injustice - opinion - 11 November 2009 - New Scientist
If you take the basis of altruism as a selfish act that increases an individuals status within a group you can clearly see the benefit of altruism to the individual. In a real setting those within a church group that do most, ie spend most time or devote greatest resources, do in fact reap some personal benefit, even if it is only something as unsubstantial as kudos. That status can effectively be bought in such a way raises questions about who really benefits from it. Again it would depend on which level you choose to look at things. A high degree of reciprocity within a group brings great mutual advantage but still drives certain individuals to go beyond what is materially good for them in a quest for status. Others do a few years study and get rewarded with top status within the group by default, the ministers and priests. It clearly shows that the altruism that is the hallmark of the 'charity' aspect of religion to not be charity at all, but a selfish investment. That this behaviour is common amongst social animals shows that it is not a human characteristic but one evolved long ago in our evolutionary history. It is one of the many facets of a complex picture that shows the human construct of religious belief and practice are all evolved from easily understood and quantified behaviours that evolved and were not bestowed. Being a good person is not doing the will of god. It is self-serving.
 
I agree (Somewhat). I don't think there is such a thing as a selfless altruistic act. There is always a motive behind the act itself ... Some sense of gratification or reward. I don't think it makes these acts altogether selfish, though. It just means that they are rewarding.
 
I don't oppose, condemn or even criticise selfishness, self-absorption or self-servitude.

I say embrace it. It's impossible to ever exclude the self.

I think about and of myself in everything I do, even when I do something altruistic or help others. It's deeply personal. I want to be doing something meaningful with myself because it makes me feel good about myself.

Don't give me orders. Don't tell me what to do. I want to be doing what I want to be doing. If anyone is going to tell me what to do, they should tell me why it is so important for me to be doing it.

I would rather be doing something spectacular and memorable than to be laying bricks all day. It is not to say that laying bricks isn't constructive. I may eventually have a home built for someone. But laying bricks in itself is boring.

It is right for religious people to be selfish. It is right that being religious is about getting what you want. I am not a machine or robot. I am human and I have feelings.
 
I had a whole rant on selfish as a virtue, to which I was beat repeatedly about the head and shoulders trying to defend.

ie be selfish today so you can be altruistic tomorrow.

But in response to the OP it seems most times you take a group of kids to volunteer someplace many get an ego high out of it. "makes me feel good"... Now these we 'force' to 'volunteer' but they still get something out of it. vs. those who volunteer TO get something out of it. I think it is common, we expect some kind of exchange for service.
 
Not: Is it possible for someone to fix the typo in the header? Should just be 'selfish' of course.

Thanks for the replies. All 3 of which beautifully illustrate the consensus that can be reached on an interfaith forum :D

Something you do not know is that for 3 years now I have been a regular visitor to an 86 year old woman who has progressive dementia. She has a home in an affluent area close to the city centre and a priest has taken over the use of the driveway for his car and her garage for the storage of church paraphernalia. She could easily, because of location, charge $5k a year for this. He only works weekends ( :rolleyes: ) and picks up the car Saturday mornings and returns it Monday morning. Of the dozens of times I have been there on a Saturday he has only once come in and talked to the old lady. And then only because other people were there.
The lady in question is Polish and so is the priest. She spends most of her life seeing only her live-in carer and me. Her surviving son has emigrated to Poland. The priest, despite his use of her, will not even devote five minutes a week of conversation with her. I discussed this issue with the carer and other Polish people... which made the pious lot of them a bit nervous. It seems a priest is exempt from the need for altruism to earn respect.

This is not isolated. I have on at least two other occasions been in a position to form a similar opinion about the priesthood. They remind me of something between an accountant and a lawyer. ( :D , that does make a rather amusing trinity of professional liars.) Not sure really where I am going with this. Have any of you got stories, good and bad, where you can personally offer an opinion on an individual priest, preacher or whatever? In relation to their selfishness/altruism.
 
It's an exceptional person who can be truly kind. It's an equally exceptional person who can accept true kindness. This has nothing to do with the priesthood or religion per se. It's about a person's capacity to give and receive but I do think that to be open to that which is not subjectively tainted you have to escape the perception that life is just WYSIWYG - of course priests haven't done this otherwise they wouldn't be priests.

Perhaps I could qualify that to say that if you have escaped from a literalist interpretation of life by understanding that you are not all that important there's a better chance that you will be capable of kindness.
 
Check this out.... I saw them more than 15 times as a kid...they were my church if you like. Or at least their songs were as as close as I ever got to sermons. The energy at their gigs was a little more raucous than any gospel singers ever imagined I would guess. Maybe it sounds bad, but I just came across it and it was a real "blast from the past" moment...thought I'd share.

Stiff Little Fingers - Roots, Radicals, Rockers And Reggae lyrics
 
It has been my personal experience that they who most vehemently argue that there is no such thing as selflessness are not "enlightened" or "free-thinking" nearly so much as they are desperately trying to rationalize their own selfishness in the eyes of others. Altruism is certainly not the exclusive property of religion. That many religions prescribe altruism does not mean that the irreligious or those who belong to the religion of anti-religion are required to, almost in knee-jerk fashion, then claim that altruism cannot exist.

It is as absurd as claiming that music cannot exist because religions make so much use of music.
 
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