Dream
Well-Known Member
4Paladin
I don't know of anything cruel that is not an animal.
4Dogbrain
What about toe fungus?
I don't know of anything cruel that is not an animal.
4Dogbrain
What about toe fungus?
Cruel is a perception like good is it not.
The whole you gotta break a lot of eggs to make an omelette. Do the abortion folks complain?? I know the vegans do. Perception.
Lichen tears the granite mountain down to beach sand....cruel??
Is it good that a country conscripts 1500 ships to be privateers, 'sanctified pirates' and tells them have at it, go off our shores and take whatever you can, stop whatever ship you can, you get the ship, you get the bounty, take whatever you need, sell what you don't the income you make is yours. Sinkem if you can't capture them, you have our blessing, support and protection.....awful.....terrible......cruel.....without it the US would not have been created, our privateers were a significant help in the war and without them forget about Valley Forge, Paul Revere or the Lafeyette as the Brits would have wrote the history books and this country would not have existed. hmmmm what about Somalia now?? perspective....
Dream
Well-Known Member
Cruelty doesn't seem perceptual to me. In nature, animals are cruel to play with their prey rather than just eating it.
By saying cruelty I refer to malicious humor; and it is an animal trait observable in some species. Certain things just aren't good, and cruelty is one of those things that aren't. This is a universal principle which you will see recognized everywhere, even where people disobey it. Would it not bother you if God enjoyed suffering in others? It would contradict the meaning of the word 'Good'; from which is derived the English for 'God'. This 'Good' is an ideal of good, far above the attainment of even the finest examples of humanity and nature. Nobody is going to tell me that good can be cruel, because cruel is the least and worst use of life.
By saying cruelty I refer to malicious humor; and it is an animal trait observable in some species. Certain things just aren't good, and cruelty is one of those things that aren't. This is a universal principle which you will see recognized everywhere, even where people disobey it. Would it not bother you if God enjoyed suffering in others? It would contradict the meaning of the word 'Good'; from which is derived the English for 'God'. This 'Good' is an ideal of good, far above the attainment of even the finest examples of humanity and nature. Nobody is going to tell me that good can be cruel, because cruel is the least and worst use of life.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
But don't you see this is a judgement that you have passed? Animals simply are, they do what they do, and it is only in your eyes there is cruelty. A man made concept... another construct that's all.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Maybe this is a narrower definition of cruelty than you were thinking? People understand that one can relish another's suffering, and its universal to us all. If you are the butt of my joke, then its cruelty. If I do not relish wounding you, then its simple infliction of suffering without cruelty. Including the intent narrows cruelty into something everybody understands. By this universally human definition, cats are often cruel when they maim their prey. It doesn't mean I don't like cats. I have no idea what the cat thinks, but I can tell the cat enjoys wounding the mouse.
17th Angel
לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
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Is god good? Is of course a valid question... Why? Because, it ends with a question mark.. Hence... It is a question...
Do cows like to mud wrestle in hot pants?
Can god do the fandango?
Another valid question.... I can keep um' coming.
Do cows like to mud wrestle in hot pants?
Can god do the fandango?
Another valid question.... I can keep um' coming.
E
Eclectic Mystic
Guest
This is what I get for trying to communicate with a bunch of beatniks.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Hi Jahway.
This question can arise from the mystical theory of why God created, a question which a literal reading of Genesis does not address. It says that God, who is love, must have someone to love and therefore created everyone else. It is actually an extra-biblical mystical theory that makes some sense for a personal God. While not directly Biblical, its based upon the verse you quoted, Jahway.(I John 4:16) It is popular -- almost doctrine, and people independently come up with it just from that verse. I did myself years ago. After that the big question comes from two things: 1. According to the literal reading of Genesis God created the world. 2. In the Bible, it appears God defines what is good and bad, so is God good just because he says he is? Or is God good according to a standard? 3. Finally, does it matter from your perspective?
Theories of why and how God created are interesting.
Your last part I think for myself that God is truth, as the Bible also shows. As humans we cannot obtain an objective truth, one that is TRUE. There is always subjection applied, and perhaps error.
For myself, I do not think about What defines God as good or bad, because God is not human - therefore cannot be defined in terms of human understanding. It is not for humans to define truth, because we exist only through God. I think if we attempt to ask what standards God can be good, we are overstepping our bounds, we are challenging God and his goodness.
Man has proved through our history that as a collective lot we are unable to sustain peace and love. If God is the definition of love (God=love) then only God through His infinite wisdom understands what is Good.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Jahway,
Just for you 'Jahweh':
The NT comments on this. James & I John support the view that humans cannot be truth; but Romans suggests that humans can know it.Jahway said:
- Romans 7:14-16 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
I agree that human truth bends around our desires. If you are talking about the Biblical God, then there are some verses which might support the view that God abides by standards rather than bending them to suit the creation. They don't directly say it, but they're in the neighborhood of it:Jahway said:
- Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
- Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
- (Baalam) Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Is that proven for sure and for certain? What about eventually if we are given more time?jahweh said:
Just for you 'Jahweh':
Marcus Garvey said:
Thank you Dream for your continued interest in the discussion. I have enjoyed it! 
The word righteous is defined as:
characterized by uprightness or morality, morally right or justifiable. good, honest, fair, right.
Psalm 145:17 reads:
The LORD is righteous in all His ways, Gracious in all His works.
Deuteronomy 32:4 Reads:
He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.
Therefore, as described in the Bible, God the Lord, is just, good, and right in ALL his ways.
I think history has proven this, do you believe things have been getting better?
We have had much time, and I think we see the repetition of evils throughout our human history. We are not truth, are we not without injustice. Only God is. How can an unrighteous man rule men righteously? If there is only ONE that is righteous in all ways, then only that ONE would be able to. This is based on a Christian belief in the return of Christ. What is your faith if I may ask?
I personally have felt this way even before I began serious studies into religion.
My right could be someone else's wrong. We can become more peaceable people, but we cannot force others to be peaceable.
I have been very discouraged about the World's affairs for sometime, so no, I do not think that as humans we will ever be able to make the entire world a better place. We can make our inner world peaceable, but that does not make up for the evils and maladies that people all over the world must deal with everyday. These troubles have only worsen, especially through globalization.
I will come back to the religious aspect with this...
Jeremiah 10:23
O LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself;
It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
God, through his righteousness, would be able to provide the way for man to walk, and direct his step. Man is unable to direct his step, in accordance to righteousness. Therefore, it is not until humans have obtained truth DIRECTLY from God will humans be able to see peace and prosperity on a global scale.
Can you please illustrate how you interpret this scripture? What "law" do you think Paul is referring to? I ask because I am unsure.
The word righteous is defined as:
characterized by uprightness or morality, morally right or justifiable. good, honest, fair, right.
Psalm 145:17 reads:
The LORD is righteous in all His ways, Gracious in all His works.
Deuteronomy 32:4 Reads:
He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.
Therefore, as described in the Bible, God the Lord, is just, good, and right in ALL his ways.
I think history has proven this, do you believe things have been getting better?
We have had much time, and I think we see the repetition of evils throughout our human history. We are not truth, are we not without injustice. Only God is. How can an unrighteous man rule men righteously? If there is only ONE that is righteous in all ways, then only that ONE would be able to. This is based on a Christian belief in the return of Christ. What is your faith if I may ask?
I personally have felt this way even before I began serious studies into religion.
My right could be someone else's wrong. We can become more peaceable people, but we cannot force others to be peaceable.
I have been very discouraged about the World's affairs for sometime, so no, I do not think that as humans we will ever be able to make the entire world a better place. We can make our inner world peaceable, but that does not make up for the evils and maladies that people all over the world must deal with everyday. These troubles have only worsen, especially through globalization.
I will come back to the religious aspect with this...
Jeremiah 10:23
O LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself;
It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
God, through his righteousness, would be able to provide the way for man to walk, and direct his step. Man is unable to direct his step, in accordance to righteousness. Therefore, it is not until humans have obtained truth DIRECTLY from God will humans be able to see peace and prosperity on a global scale.
M
MmmFiber
Guest
EM, Your posts communicate your point well. Also, I like your use of high level vocabulary. But, it would seem that you lack some substance for your assertion. First, this is posted in the Abrahamic Religions section, so I think that the context of the specific God that those three beliefs follow is crucial. Second, I agree that this question is mostly irrelevant. People who believe in this god will assuredly say that their god chooses what is good. And, people who do not believe in a god will likely have some sort of relative cultural morality to claim. These points of view are rarely completely reconcilable. Therefore, the question of 'is god good' is usually already decided within each individual according to their own morality, whatever that may be. I've never personally seen anyone's view changed on this matter unless they were undetermined about the issue. Third, using "big" or "$10" words and not having an actual argument to back them up usually comes off as pretentious. Stating an opinion is not considered an argument. Maybe next time we can agree on an issue that is fully fleshed out.
E
Eclectic Mystic
Guest
MmmF, Welcome to the forums. You're full of compliments about both my writing style and my use of vocabulary. I agree that these types of threads belong in a different forum such as philosophy/logic. However, no assertions were made and no arguments or opitions were given.
The Undecided
Well-Known Member
I would say that, if God exists, he is neither good or bad, his nature is to create, nothing more or less. When we have natural disasters, like tsunamis or earthquakes, we can often ask ourselves where was God? Why did he not save the people who died? Did he punish them for their evil ways? etc. But the cause of these disasters is the movement of the earth's crust, without which minerals and elements would not be renewed and life couldn't continue. In the same way that earthquakes are a result of the earth's crust behaving according to it's nature, God behaves according to his nature. He created the universe the way it is. For him to save people from an earthquake or tsunami would be against his nature, because he would be going against the laws of nature, which he created. As well, there is a finite amount of elements and energy, from which we are made. If no one died then there wouldn't be enough matter and energy to create new life. Death is necessary for life to continue.
The Undecided
Well-Known Member
Good point Dogbrain. To try and describe God is to limit him. We should just say that he is the creator and leave it at that. Too many arguments have come from tying to describe God and disagreeing.
The Undecided
Well-Known Member
I agree. But humans are animals too. We just think that we are better because we have the largest frontal cortex. Our arrogance will be the end of us. Our assumption that the earth, and the universe, are ours to conquer and control will mean that we destroy the very thing that is our life support system. If anything we are guardians of the earth rather than rulers of it.
The Undecided
Well-Known Member
Hi Dream,
The question of why God created seems pointless when you consider that there is nothing that we can know about God other than that he is a creator. He is above description, in Taoism He is called the Nameless. If it can be Named then it is the creation, not the creator.
G
Greatest I am
Guest
If one believes in Bible God then as the beginning and the end, the alpha and omega that no one is to place another God above, then he must be the epitome of all attributes.
The most good and the most evil.
That may be why the Bible N T preaches love, while the O T shows God's hate as it shows him killing innocents as in the days of Sodom and Noah.
God is to be our example of the highest love and the lowest hate.
Regards
DL
The most good and the most evil.
That may be why the Bible N T preaches love, while the O T shows God's hate as it shows him killing innocents as in the days of Sodom and Noah.
God is to be our example of the highest love and the lowest hate.
Regards
DL
