I said:
I wouldn't consider that very fair at all - the scarred women must go through this life suffering physically and mentally from this, with the only hope being that in some distant reincarnation there is something to make up for this.
Not fair from our mortal, human perspective ... but then, we sometimes have a hard time accepting the role that suffering plays for all who are incarnate here. It is no
accident that people suffer in the three worlds of human endeavor
on this planet (and especially here), and this is a point which is difficult to reconcile with the tenets of monotheism.
Also, who said anything about "
distant?" What are a thousand years, when the Soul will likely incarnate through thousands upon thousands of such incarnations, strung like beads upon a necklace worn by the true Self? It is a matter of perspective, isn't it.
I said:
why prolong a culture of acid-throwing in the hope the men would be incarnated as similarly afflicted women? Isn't it better that one of the women stood up to try and stamp out the practice?
Of course it would be better. But I don't think Nick's arguing that point. In disagreement with shawn, I think he's just suggesting that we
do know the modus operandi when it comes to the Law of Karma. We may not have ALL the answers, but we can at least explain
why `bad' things happen to `good' (read, innocent) people. Monotheists especially may wonder,
Why does it have to be like this? And it takes considerable study and investigation ... and patience, to answer that question satisfactorily.
I said:
The view of Karma being suggested ... is that it's another interpretation of heaven/hell - where punishments and rewards are delivered after death.
Not in my book. I don't mean to keep putting words into Nick's mouth, but I would guess he's just trying to reach a common denominator here. I would expect that he no more believes in a personal, monotheistic god sitting up there dolling out
punishments and rewards than I believe in the Easter Bunny. Rather, he is sort of colloquializing, or expressing in terms that ARE familiar to monotheists, how our `good' and `bad' actions/motivations are met with - according to the Law of Karma. N'est pas, Nick?
I said:
But what if there are no punishments or rewards? What if there is only heaven? What is reincarnation has little to do with previous lifetimes?
Big what-ifs, but this reflects neither the Eastern view, nor the view as Theosophy and the Ageless Wisdom have sought to clarify things.
I would be the first to agree that in fact, ALL THERE IS is Heaven ... with various degrees of expression, manifestation, or EMANATION - all relative to the originating Godhead (call this the Absolute IN manifestation or Incarnation, vs. the Unknowable, ultimate ABSOLUTE). The mantram Baba Nam Kevalam points us in this general direction (
Love is the essence of all things!).
But the way we experience life is not representative of the GREATEST or Highest of which we are capable. Human potential, as expressed in every Scripture of every religion that you can name, is always a good bit
beyond what it is that we have yet experienced and actualized - speaking individually or collectively. Witness:
Greater things than this, YE shall do ... and see Ephesians 4:13 for St. Paul's take on this idea.
Thus, we must be willing to come to terms with what our incarnation is like ... upon THIS planet, at THIS time in human history, while also considering in what ways this reflects or parallels the conditions of evolution upon ANY and EVERY planet in Cosmos (going through a similar stage) - and not disregarding those important ways in which we are, unquestionably, unique!
Hints regarding these subtle points are found scattered throughout the exoteric religious teachings, although the proper Keys for unlocking and understanding some of the Mysteries will certainly be found only upon a deeper and more thorough investigation. And I think plenty of folks are engaged in that Search, well on the Way as we continue the Journey together ...
I said:
And why is it so many people remain fixated on absolving ourselves of action in this lifetime
I would suggest that this is largely because, as one Master has put it, the teaching of Karma in the East has had a soporific effect, rather than a healthier, more motivating one.
Consider: H.P. Blavatsky expressed it like this, in the book of stanzas translated as
The Voice of the Silence:
Sow kindly acts and thou shalt reap their fruition. Inaction in a deed of mercy becomes an action in a deadly sin.
Thus saith the Sage.
Shalt thou abstain from action? Not so shall gain thy soul her freedom.
To reach Nirvana one must reach Self-Knowledge, and Self-Knowledge is of loving DEEDS the child.
All emphasis is mine, of course, but note how clearly the instruction is given that we must ACT in order to
clear the slate, IF that is what we have in mind regarding this matter. Wiping that slate clean, however, is NOT the true reason why so much information has been given out regarding the workings of the Law of Karma. This is not the correct motivation, because it is not the most NOBLE (and selfless, or charitable) motivation.
When we seek to serve others, our Karma will be rapidly cleared automatically. The Teachers assist us with this - and at great cost and sacrifice to themselves - for at various stages they literally take upon themselves a portion of the burden
of our own, individual, group and collective karma ... and this They do because they know what assistance we shall be able to provide to Humanity (and the Plan) as a result.
That result is not immediate. It may be years, or lifetimes, in the making. The Master R. clarifies in teachings during the 50s and 60s (of the 20th Century) that his own group was prepared to render a service to the Plan some 10,000 years ago and more.
Unfortunately, Group and World circumstances would not - or did not - allow His group to complete the work that they were otherwise PREPARED to do, and the service which they sought to render is only NOW being delivered to a needy Humanity.
If this does not illustrate the Surpreme, DIVINE PATIENCE which every Master within the Hierarchy displays ... and also the Great, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE which every Member has for Humanity (and for every single Human Unit) ... then I don't know what does.
Best of all, it provides us some insight into the workings of the Law of Karma. Just because an opportunity is missed, this does not mean that the Divine Agencies which oversee and Administrate these affairs do not "try again" ... or do not help facilitate such 2nd, 3rd, 4th, & etc. attempts in the
future - however remote that future may seem to be from our mortal human perspectives.
Regarding an earlier point, which finds a relevant place here, I think Nick - as myself - would agree with the points in the Teaching anent the Lipika, or `Lords of Karma.' These are some of the most IMpersonal of Divine Agencies that we might imagine, yet They are the guarantee that the Law of Karma is administered for all of Humanity (and hence, for EVERY human Soul) - not simply FAIRLY and PERFECTLY (from the higher standpoint), but also in what will only sound like a contradiction,
personally.
In short, each INDIVIDUAL Soul has the Higher Law applied for it, both without discrimination, and yet - with EVERY consideration of the various circumstances that affect THAT SOUL (and NOT just the temporary, incarnate personality ... as these are all SECONDARY concerns).
Do you see? It will do us no good to try and understand the workings of the Law of Karma (the Law of Cause and Effect), unless we also have the proper understanding of the Nature of the Soul, and of the proper relationship between the Soul and the tiny incarnation of a fragment thereof (see the Sri Isopanishad, v.15) ... which we call the
personality. Mistaking our mortal self for the self that Abides, is it any wonder that we find fault with the Divine, and seek outside blame for our sufferings and misfortune?
I said:
Yet in invoking karma and similar we are effectively denying freewill to any degree, and instead putting the blame on cosmic forces we have no control over.
Not if we accept that we are inherently responsible for our actions. Those who blame KARMA are simply invoking Karma-Nemesis. This is a difficult subject, but I recommend reading the definition that H.P. Blavatsky provided, and consider carefully what she has to say:
Karma-Nemesis [from Sanskrit
karma action, cause and effect + Greek
Nemesis goddess of harmony or retribution] The appointed karmic lot or destiny of any entity, latent in the entity's germinal existence and unfolded progressively in the course of its growth or evolution. The universe as a whole fulfills, in the course of its cyclic evolution, all that is contained in the germ at the dawn of its manifestation; and the individual, who in essence is a spark of the divine life, follows the same inscrutable law of destiny, as do also the worlds and all the beings in and on them.
The destiny which lies in the germ is the destiny which belongs to the spiritual entity in its various attributes behind that germ, and these attributes as a whole -- in other words the svabhava of the entity -- are born of that entity's portion of free will leading it off into strange bypaths during the ages-long course of its evolutionary growth. The incarnate person, having the power of choice, can wander temporarily far astray from the path of his divine destiny, lured by the attractions of the lower planes of manifestation. This stirring up of karmic results which actually becomes Karma-Nemesis, that which cannot be avoided and must be worked out, the beneficent but inexorable adjuster and restorer of harmony.
Thus destiny is not fatalism, but emphatically supports the idea of intrinsically spiritual free will. The stirring up of these seeds of Karma-Nemesis are the consequences or results of the entity's own will in act, feeling, and consequent result. Thus destiny is of two kinds: that which the evolving entity has stored up as character, propensities, biases, and svabhava in other lives; and that which the entity, using its modicum of free will, is now storing up for its future, but in accordance with its own exercise of will or choice. See also FREE WILL; KARMA; NEMESIS
In short, the apparent contradiction between Karma and Free Will, between Destiny and the power to Choose, is just that. It is
appearance only, and is itself a condition of the illusion which conditions our incarnate existence. Once we have learned to better stand free (detached) from such illusions and misunderstandings, and once we have gained a measure of what the Buddhists call
equanimity - meeting all circumstances with neither favor nor disapproval - we shall be THAT much closer to the Consciousness and the manner in which the Soul, the true SELF within, meets with and regards all outer, lesser, fleeting and transitory circumstances of its long string of individual incarnations.
I said:
In which case, there can be no such thing as "bad" or "good" karma because it is all divinely ordained in the first place, if that is what is accepted!
I think this has just been clarified ... or at least, to
my satisfaction.
I said:
the focus remains on blaming the victim, not the perpetrator!
But that does not mean to say we cannot take affirmative and positive action now in this lifetime to try and prevent the same mistakes of man and nature from being repeated.
Again, if we understand Karma to be - First of all, an IMPERSONAL, Divine LAW (an expression on a very high plane of the 3rd Aspect or Holy Spirit, governing all of the Manifest Cosmos) ... and Second, to be `blind' only in the sense that
every action has necessary and inescapable results (much like say, GRAVITY?), then I think we will see that the JUST man has nothing to fear, and could not possibly have a
complaint to voice regarding the nature of reality.
After all, to WHOM should he direct his complaints? To the anthropomorphic, PERSONAL deity whom and which is refusing to hear the pleading and begging of those who feel they have been unjustly slighted?
For certainly there is unnecessary suffering in the three worlds, and that is what the Buddhas and the Christs have tried to teach us how to AVOID. And how have we received either them or their Teachings?
But we shall not place BLAME, either with the apparent VICTIMS of crimes and misfortunes, nor with an imperfect DEITY for having ALLOWED such terrible things to happen (to such good, innocent people) ... NOR even with those seemingly bad,
evil individuals who have transgressed Divine Law (in this case, the Law which corresponds to the
2nd Aspect in manifestation, being the Law of LOVE) and caused some harm to self or others.
For we have been taught FORGIVENESS, and even to RESIST NOT EVIL. We have been asked to find - within the very depths of our Heart - an Identification WITH each party involved in any apparent injustice, and while we are asked to DEFEND the victims in every observable circumstance, we are also taught to seek to UNDERSTAND and to consider the true nature, meaning and implications of Ignorance and Nescience (which are responsible for transgressions of the Law to begin with).
It is due to all of this, due to the very NATURE of things (great and small, above and below, within and without) that Shakyamuni Buddha delivered to us the FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS, telling us in no uncertain terms that our planet includes SUFFERING as one of the conditions hereupon (at present), and proceeding to give us the Cause, the Solution, and the precise STEPS NEEDED to bring about the Final and Perfect ANTIDOTE to the poisons and the miseries which we continue to experience here.
