John 14:12 even greater things than these

wil

wil

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a figment of your imagination
King James
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
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GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"I can guarantee this truth: Those who believe in me will do the things that I am doing. They will do even greater things because I am going to the Father.
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Now I've heard from a number of different sources, including from this site...folks saying, "I wish he hadn't had said that."

My question is....why?

Some folks tell me that the way I believe in Jesus I relegate him to no more than a motivational speaker. I think they may be correct, no more than the greatest motivational speaker ever, one that showed us the way to salvation and G!d.

So why do folks wish he hadn't said, that, hadn't raised the bar and dropped the gauntlet?
 
Hi Wil —

Well, if 'motivational speaker' is your benchmark, then I suggest he's referring to Billy Graham.

According to 'sources', somewhere in the region of 2.5 million people responded to his invitation to step forward, which is way more than Christ achieved in His lifetime.

And again, BG's global audience is placed somewhere around 2.2 billion, which probably beats Moses + Jesus + Mohammed + Buddha + whoever else flat.

Thomas
 
Then Billy maybe one that has come close to the bar...

And the RCC has had many raised to sainthood based on miracles and works yes?
 
wil said:
King JamesNow I've heard from a number of different sources, including from this site...folks saying, "I wish he hadn't had said that."My question is....why?
Some folks tell me that the way I believe in Jesus I relegate him to no more than a motivational speaker. I think they may be correct, no more than the greatest motivational speaker ever, one that showed us the way to salvation and G!d.
So why do folks wish he hadn't said, that, hadn't raised the bar and dropped the gauntlet?
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This verse imo shows Jesus' parental heart toward us. Parents wish for their children to be even better than them.
 
Seems to me that Billy Graham is a great disciple. I may not agree with all that he has preached, but that changes nothing. His accomplishments, his following and his oratory ... all speak for themselves (if that's not being too redundant).

As for the Biblical verse, it is one of my favorite, as it can help us to see beyond our present boundaries and limitations. It can help us to imagine a time when Humanity is much closer to embodying the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

My thoughts on what such a world situation will be like, when we are doing these "greater things" ... have been voiced recently on this other thread at CR.

I am curious: Of what might some of these "greater things" consist? And, how do we think we might ever find ourselves in such a situation that doing such things becomes possible? Or, are they already possible now ... and if so, is anyone doing them? How about an example or two?
 
But, we do not even know if Jesus actually said that or not.
Perhaps it was added in by the catholic scribes who most certainly had an agenda.
*Christianity becomes the new and improved Mithra-ism.*
A great tool to influence the citizens of the empire, including (and especially) the military.
 
wil said:
King JamesNow I've heard from a number of different sources, including from this site...folks saying, "I wish he hadn't had said that."

My question is....why?

Some folks tell me that the way I believe in Jesus I relegate him to no more than a motivational speaker. I think they may be correct, no more than the greatest motivational speaker ever, one that showed us the way to salvation and G!d.

So why do folks wish he hadn't said, that, hadn't raised the bar and dropped the gauntlet?
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Meh, we are doing even greater works than Jesus. He walked on water, and now we flying high in the sky. He turned water into wine, and now we got all sorts flavorful concoctions to choose from. How many thousands die in a year and are brought back to life? We may not be nearly as magical, but we are surpassing his works and on a much larger scale.

Practically speaking, We often help heal the wounded in heart through care and compassion. Many others help give vision and hope to those who have none. Sometimes we are able to help put life back in those who have lost the will to live. By acting on our love, care, and concern for those we share our world with, lives change (Not to mention the advances in the medical field).

Just because we can't spit in a pile of dirt, rub it on the eyelids of a blind man and make him see, doesn't mean our works are any less substantial. Jesus was right when He said greater works will we do. Look around people. Look at our technical, and scientific advances. I'm amazed at what mankind has been able to accomplish (Just in the last 30 years).

GK
 
wil said:
Namaste Gt and welcome!
So you think we can take just these words as wishul thinking or all of Jesus's statements?
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No, what I meant is that Jesus believed what he said. As he was trying to open the way for humanity, he was certainly hoping that we would go beyond what he was able to accomplish
 
NiceCupOfTea said:
there are people around today who claim and believe that God works miracles through them in the same way that Jesus did,

YouTube - Bill Johnson - Bringing Heaven to Earth - Part 1/2

YouTube - Heidi Baker: Intimacy for Miracles - CBN.com
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Do you believe it?



Wil: "Parting your soup is not a miracle Bruce, it's a magic trick. A single mom who's working two jobs, and still finds time to take her son to soccer practice, that's a miracle. A teenager who says "no" to drugs and "yes" to an education, that's a miracle. People want me to do everything for them. What they don't realize is *they* have the power. You want to see a miracle, son? Be the miracle."

These some of those greater things?
 
A really useful way to understand a text is to read it in context.

The disciples are not sure what's going to happen, but somehow, Jesus is 'leaving' ... He keeps speaking to them in apocalyptic terms ... and their big fear is being left alone...

Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me ... because I go to prepare a place for you. And if I shall go, and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will take you to myself; that where I am, you also may be...
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Now the discourse with Thomas and Philip ‚ again their uncertainty.

The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.
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This sets the framework for understanding 'words' and 'works'.

Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.
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The struggle always for the disciples was to comprehend who Jesus is.

But His point is, if you can't get a grip on me, then at least trust in what you have seen, and what you know, that the Father works in me.

Jesus can do 'works' because He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him; and if you believe in Him, then you, too, shall do works, because He shall perform the works in you, and the Father in Him ... so there is an ontological causal chain established: you ... Jesus ... the Father.

Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do. If you love me, keep my commandments.
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Keeping the commandments is the greatest work anyone can do.

But see, if you pray to the Son, it is the Son who will perform the work, and if you pray to the Father, it is the Son who will perform the work, for the Father's grace and glory is the Son.

And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.
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Another, equivalent to Himself, who will abide for ever in the person, whereas Jesus will have gone away ... so the causal chain is extended: you ... Paracelete ... Jesus ... Father.

The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.
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Have faith. Stand fast.

I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
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This texts points to the unity not only between Father and Son, but Father and Son (and that 'other Paraclete') and humanity.

One way of looking at it, anyway ...

Thomas
 
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