A phone conversation with a muslim missionary

bob x said:
(Causality) is not at all "self-evident"; I think it is simply false, and that its falsity will eventually be demonstrable.
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So, when in the future do you think that demonstration will occur?

Do you think it will occur when the strongest influence causes someone to demonstrate it? ;)
 
rodgertutt said:
So, when in the future do you think that demonstration will occur?

Do you think it will occur when the strongest influence causes someone to demonstrate it? ;)
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No, more likely when the strongest influences are opposed to anyone demonstrating it!
 
rodgertutt said:
The issue is whether or not we could have avoided making an offering, and the answer is no.
The strongest influence CAUSED you to make an offering.
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And for those who didn't make an offering... what influence caused them to make that choice?
 
bob x said:
No, more likely when the strongest influences are opposed to anyone demonstrating it!
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We always, without exception, choose whatever is having the strongest influence on our mind to choose.

Since every choice we make is the only one we could have made, no one will ever be able to "demonstrate" that causality is false.
 
rodgertutt said:
no one will ever be able to "demonstrate" that causality is false.
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You are 85 years behind the times. As far as inanimate matter is concerned, the naive picture of causality that you believe in has ALREADY been demonstrated to be false. What has not yet been demonstrated is how this breakdown of causality at the basic level of physics plays out in the context of the human mind, but I believe that picture will become clearer in the coming decades.
 
citizenzen said:
So did God influence me and caused me to not make an offering?
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In the sense that God sustains you alive to be unavoidably influenced by whatever is having the strongest influence on your mind, then yes, in that sense you could say that God influenced you to not make an offering.
You didn't make an offering because there were stronger influential considerations that CAUSED you not to make an offering.

It is God's DECRETIVE will (that which MUST occur), that we all oppose His PRECEPTIVE will (that which we OUGHT to do) as much as we actually do.

Everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of the efforts of everyone to assist, or prevent it from happening.
 
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bob x said:
You are 85 years behind the times. As far as inanimate matter is concerned, the naive picture of causality that you believe in has ALREADY been demonstrated to be false. What has not yet been demonstrated is how this breakdown of causality at the basic level of physics plays out in the context of the human mind, but I believe that picture will become clearer in the coming decades.
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IMO, you are talking gobbledygook.

Since we always, without exception, choose in the direction of what we perceive to be the most desireable, and therefore the STRONGEST influence, there cannot be any such a thing as free will.

Contray choice is impossible.
No one can choose what they do not actually prefer, even though they may have some inclinations to choose something else the influence of which may be almost just as strong as what they do choose.
 
Rodger,

I'm going to jump ahead here and make a couple of assumptions. If these assumptions are wrong, please feel free to correct them.

1. God's "Perceptive Will" is sometimes overshadowed and is not the strongest influence in out lives.

2. That must mean there is at least one other influencer, as no decision can actually be made without influence as that would constitute "Free Will".

3. I suspect that you think this other influencer is Satan.

This conjures up the cliché of the angel sitting on one shoulder and the devil sitting on the other. Since no decision is actually made by the human, it really only comes down to who is shouting the loudest: the angel or the devil.

And according to you, no matter which direction the automaton (human) is steered by either influence, it is ultimately fulfilling the "Decretive Will" of God.

So why if this is the case, do we need saving? Since we are not in control, since we do not possess free will, since we ARE doing God's will, then why do we need salvation at all? What would God be saving? Apparently our souls are little more than balloons drifting any direction the wind is blowing. What is there to be saved?

Of course, there is a chance that I've misinterpreted your posts. You are welcome to clear up any misunderstanding.
 
rodgertutt said:
Since we always, without exception, choose in the direction of what we perceive to be the most desireable, and therefore the STRONGEST influence
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I repeat: the "influences" (that is, the sum total of the history and current distribution of all the material forces) do not determine what we will decide to be "most desirable"; that decision may, in a spontaneous manner utterly unpredictable on the basis of even a complete knowledge of all influences, go in the direction contrary to the strongest influence. This is a matter of empirical fact, as far as inanimate matter is concerned; that question was settled decisively in the 1920's. I believe that this characteristic of spontaneity will be verified in the case of the human mind, as an empirical scientific question, in the near future; that has of course been the Buddhist teaching for millennia already.

Your difficulties with comprehending what the opposing position is do not mean that nobody can logically hold the opposing position to yours.
 
citizenzen said:
So God's perceptive will is weaker than other influences in our lives?

God's will is weak?
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The word I am using is "preceptive" not perceptive.

God's DECRETIVE will is that which MUST occur. Everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including everyone's attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening. That is God's DECRETIVE will.

God's PRECEPTIVE will is how we OUGHT to behave ourselves according to His precept (teaching) to love one another and treat others the same way that we would like to be treated by them.
God's preceptive will (i.e. His teaching) is neither weak nor strong.
God's preceptive will (i.e. His teaching) just exists.
 
citizenzen said:
Rodger,

1. God's "Perceptive Will" is sometimes overshadowed and is not the strongest influence in out lives.
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The word is "preceptive" not perceptive.
It refers to God's teaching and is neither strong nor weak. It just is.

citizenzen said:
2. That must mean there is at least one other influencer, as no decision can actually be made without influence as that would constitute "Free Will".
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All decisions are CAUSED by the strongest influences that have been brought to bear upon the chooser, whether or not the influences were internal or external, or a combination of both.

citizenzen said:
3. I suspect that you think this other influencer is Satan.

This conjures up the cliché of the angel sitting on one shoulder and the devil sitting on the other. Since no decision is actually made by the human, it really only comes down to who is shouting the loudest: the angel or the devil.

And according to you, no matter which direction the automaton (human) is steered by either influence, it is ultimately fulfilling the "Decretive Will" of God.

So why if this is the case, do we need saving? Since we are not in control, since we do not possess free will, since we ARE doing God's will, then why do we need salvation at all? What would God be saving? Apparently our souls are little more than balloons drifting any direction the wind is blowing. What is there to be saved?

Of course, there is a chance that I've misinterpreted your posts. You are welcome to clear up any misunderstanding.
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We need to be saved from the negative effects of evil which is suffering and death. God will not let Satan do anything to anyone that He does not intend to eventually transform into something better that he did it.

Satan can only be an instrument in God's hands.

Even Satan's greatest acts of opposition only further God's purposes.

It is not without prophetic significance that Jesus told Satan,
"The Lord your God shall you be worshipping,
and to Him only shall you be offering divine service (Matt. 4:10)

This utterance by Jesus, spells the final doom of Satan as an adversary, but retains him as a creature who will ultimately love and worship God.
Thus will God be glorified.
Reconciliation in the Heavens
 
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bob x said:
go in the direction contrary to the strongest influence.
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Nothing can succesfully influence a choosing in the direction contrary to the strongest influence.
It wouldn't be the strongest influence if it could.
It is silly to think otherwise.
 
bob x said:
Choosings are independent of the influences. The essence of mind is spontaneous and unconditioned.
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Completely untrue.

Every choice, whether instant or thought out, is the product of a combination of influences.

It is the only choice we could have made at the time.

There can be no such a thing as being able to make a contrary choice that is opposite to our preference.
The actual choosing of it it demonstrates that it is our preference.

The definition of "free will" that I have in mind is the idea, that during the act of making a choice, it is possible to not choose something that is having the strongest influence on your mind.

I maintain that is logically impossible. Thus, no "free will."
 
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rodgertutt said:
A PHONE CONVERSATION WITH A MUSLIM MISSIONARY

A Muslim missionary called me on my ministry phone in response to my newspaper ad “HELL IS NOT ENDLESS.”
(I have sent out many hundreds of packets of free literature to people who responded to these ads that I have put in two of Toronto’s largest newspapers since 1981.)

The Muslim missionary said “Unless you convert to Islam you WILL go to hell.”

I said, “That’s what some Christians say if I don’t convert to Christianity.”

He said, “But the difference is that Islam has the truth.”

I said, “That’s what some Christians say about their beliefs.”

He said, “After you die you will learn that the Koran is the word of God and Islam has the truth.”

I said, “I guess I’ll just have to wait until then to find out for sure.”

He said, “But it will be too late for you then.”

I laughed and said, “That’s exactly what some Christians say.”

I don’t think he thought it was funny.

I then expected him to say what a Mormon missionary said to me in Montreal. “At the judgment, as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say, ‘I told you so. I gave you a chance but you didn’t take it and now it’s too late’.”

It seems that we are supposed to believe that millions of Muslims, by sheer “accident” of birth, are born into a belief system that teaches their children that even to consider Christianity to be the truth will land them in an eternity of suffering in hell.

I believe that the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell causes more suffering here on earth than any other idea that people believe. That is why it gives me such great pleasure to offer people the urls that contain evidence that the Bible does not support such a concept of God.

Just Google up TENTMAKER and use the search engine at the top of the front page. Type in a key word from any argument or Bible verse and ten articles will appear refuting the idea that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages.

Also Google up
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
to find A LOT of scriptural evidence that God has both the ability and the intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL.
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The irony is this, when we die, if there is an afterlife, and there is a God, and God is compassionate, this God will ask us a question. our answer will seal our fate, regardless of who we are, and what we believe, while on Earth. This is a test, it is only a test. It is designed to prepare us for the next step. The final exam is yet to come...very few pass the final exam, that couldn't pass the simple "test" prior...:eek:
 
Quahom1 said:
The irony is this, when we die, if there is an afterlife, and there is a God, and God is compassionate, this God will ask us a question. our answer will seal our fate, regardless of who we are, and what we believe, while on Earth. This is a test, it is only a test. It is designed to prepare us for the next step. The final exam is yet to come...very few pass the final exam, that couldn't pass the simple "test" prior...:eek:
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What you said is not true Quahom.
Everyone will be saved from everything from which they need to be saved.
That is what my links (that I suggested you could Google up) in your last post explain.

Here are the links so you don't even have to use Google.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
or
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
or
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
 
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