A phone conversation with a muslim missionary

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DISCLAIMER: I am not a supporter of rodgertutt but bobx is simply mistaken about the physics.


bob x said:
I repeat: the "influences" (that is, the sum total of the history and current distribution of all the material forces) do not determine what we will decide to be "most desirable"; that decision may, in a spontaneous manner utterly unpredictable on the basis of even a complete knowledge of all influences, go in the direction contrary to the strongest influence. This is a matter of empirical fact
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You are wrong on two accounts here.

First of all, no decision we make is "spontaneous" (this is an empirical fact). The landmark experiments Libet conducted in 1983 proved that our unconscious mind makes the decisions, and our conscious mind just becomes aware of it. Miller and Trevena tried to argue against these with their recent experiments, but they were critiqued on the grounds that they "changed the paradigm" by adding factors which negated their results. In 2008 experiments were conducted which confirmed Libet's original results:

Brain Scanners Can See Your Decisions Before You Make Them
Free will; is our understanding wrong? - life - 01 August 2007 - New Scientist
Is Free Will an Illusion? | Wired Science | Wired.com


Secondly, you talk about a "complete" knowledge of the influences behind our decisions. This will never be possible (and this is also an empirical fact) which is how chaos comes into the picture. -But- remember that chaos is completely deterministic. Now you are probably thinking that quantum uncertainty cancels out chaos (right?) But that view is also being challenged. Quantum Chaos (or "chaology") is a new area of study in physics, and I suggest you look into it, because we are now discovering features of classical chaos in the quantum world.

You should also remember that out of the 14 most common interpretations of Quantum Mechanics, four are deterministic. A minority view for sure, but this does not make it invalid. My favorite is a fifth (unofficial) interpretation, which is: superdeterminism. According to this view (discussed by Bell himself on BBC Radio) all the contradictions and mysteries of QM can be solved if we do away with our concepts of "free will" entirely. In other words, the only reason why QM is so "mysterious" is because we keep assuming that the experimenters conducting the experiments have free will.

btw, I gave a link to Thomas recently of a video talk about something
which relates to this, but I can't find the thread. It was a TED talk by
a behavioral economist. If I come across it, i'll post it.
 
rodgertutt said:
What you said is not true Quahom.
Everyone will be saved from everything from which they need to be saved.
That is what my links (that I suggested you could Google up) in your last post explain.

Here are the links so you don't even have to use Google.
Savior of the World Series
or
absolute assurance in jesus christ
or
Universal Salvation University
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I appreciate your concerns. However I also understand what God is trying to get us to figure out. And it isn't "faith"...
 
No one has the power of contrary choice.
No one can choose what they do not prefer most.
They might strongly prefer a certain choice, but if there is another choice that they prefer even more, they will (must) choose that instead.
 
rodgertutt said:
No one has the power of contrary choice.
No one can choose what they do not prefer most.
They might strongly prefer a certain choice, but if there is another choice that they prefer even more, they will (must) choose that instead.
Click to expand...
That is a misnomer. Man will choose as he sees fit, a God given right. It is called "free will".
 
Quahom1 said:
I appreciate your concerns. However I also understand what God is trying to get us to figure out. And it isn't "faith"...
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Faith in whatever the truth is will sooner or later be given by God to everyone.

What the links demonstrate is that the Bible teaches that eventually God will save everyone.

Whether or not you believe the Bible is from God is a different matter entirely.
 
Quahom1 said:
That is a misnomer. Man will choose as he sees fit, a God given right. It is called "free will".
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Of course man will choose as he sees fit.

But, there is no such a thing as "free will."

We always without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest inflences that are being brought to bear upon our mind.
 
rodgertutt said:
Faith in whatever the truth is will sooner or later be given by God to everyone.

What the links demonstrate is that the Bible teaches that eventually God will save everyone.

Whether or not you believe the Bible is from God is a different matter entirely.
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I respect your opinion. But I disagree. God holds out his hand, it is up to Man (in the image and likeness of God), to choose to grab it...
 
c0de said:
..
our unconscious mind makes the decisions, and our conscious mind just becomes aware of it.
Click to expand...

No one has the power of contrary choice.
No one can choose what they do not prefer most.
They might strongly prefer a certain choice, but if there is another choice that they prefer even more, they will (must) choose that instead.
 
Quahom1 said:
Pleaee sir, with all due respect, discuss your thoughts with us. Don't "link" us to death. That is a violation of the COC for this forum.

v/r

Q
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OK, here is my thought. There is a large amount of evidence on the internet that the Bible teaches (whether you believe in the Bible or not) that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL.
 
rodgertutt said:
No one has the power of contrary choice.
No one can choose what they do not prefer most.
They might strongly prefer a certain choice, but if there is another choice that they prefer even more, they will (must) choose that instead.
Click to expand...
Again, a misnomer. With respect sir I submit: Those that have posthumasly earned the Medal of Honor (USA)...they chose a contrary choice, despite what they preferred. Their choice was life giving or honor giving, but not what they preferred.
 
rodgertutt said:
No one has the power of contrary choice.
No one can choose what they do not prefer most.
They might strongly prefer a certain choice, but if there is another choice that they prefer even more, they will (must) choose that instead.
Click to expand...


If the "choice" takes place in the unconscious, then (obviously) it is not a "choice" to begin with.
 
rodgertutt said:
OK, here is my thought. There is a large amount of evidence on the internet that the Bible teaches (whether you believe in the Bible or not) that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL.
Click to expand...
I am aware of this phenomenon. I tell you true that salvation is between God and the individual...
 
Quahom1 said:
Again, a misnomer. With respect sir I submit: Those that have posthumasly earned the Medal of Honor (USA)...they chose a contrary choice, despite what they preferred. Their choice was life giving or honor giving, but not what they preferred.
Click to expand...

It is completely illogical to say that anyone can choose what they do not prefer. The very fact that they choose it demonstrates that they prefer it, at least slightly more than the other thing that they might have chosen had the influence of that other thing been the strongest.
 
Quahom1 said:
I am aware of this phenomenon. I tell you true that salvation is between God and the individual...
Click to expand...

And the evidence in the Bible is that God's desire to save everyone will win, over the will of everyone who needs saving.
 
rodgertutt said:
It is completely illogical to say that anyone can choose what they do not prefer. The very fact that they choose it demonstrates that they prefer it, at least slightly more than the other thing that they might have chosen had the influence of that other thing been the strongest.
Click to expand...
It would be insane for me to prefer death, but that another might live, I could choose that. Call it sacrifice or investment, or just because it is the right thing to do. it is the same. Man can choose the opposite of his/her preference. I know, I've been there, done that, own the tee shirt, got holes in it...
 
rodgertutt said:
And the evidence in the Bible is that God's desire to save everyone will win, over the will of everyone who needs saving.
Click to expand...
The evidence is that God will save who wishes to be saved. That is the power and authorization God gave us as human beings. He did so deliberately.
 
Quahom1 said:
It would be insane for me to prefer death, but that another might live, I could choose that. Call it sacrifice or investment, or just because it is the right thing to do. it is the same. Man can choose the opposite of his/her preference. I know, I've been there, done that, own the tee shirt, got holes in it...
Click to expand...

Jesus promised that He's gone to prepare a place where there will be no more crying, pain, sorrow or death.
After we are resurrected from the dead, I believe that sooner or later everyone is going to that place.
 
rodgertutt said:
Jesus promised that He's gone to prepare a place where there will be no more crying, pain, sorrow or death.
After we are resurrected from the dead, I believe that sooner or later everyone is going to that place.
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Again, I respect your opinion, and I think yes, all will stand in the "hall". But a question put to us each, will determine which "door" we will eventually pass through.
 
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