A phone conversation with a muslim missionary

No, Buddhism teaches that the essence of mind is "spontaneous" and "unconditioned". Samsara is characterized by dependent arising; the Third Noble Truth is that it is possible to escape from this.
Essence of mind (Tibetan: sems nyid), assuming you meant this to refer to the ultimate, is not mind (Tibetan: sems). The latter is a dependent arising.

As an aside, while samsara is characterized by dependent arising, dependent arising need not be samsaric.
 
Here is the pertinent portion of the previous link to which I referred.

FREE WILL is a hallmark of orthodoxy. It is believed not only that it is true, but that it is essential, upright and noble. Many even claim that it is the chief capacity distinguishing man from beast. Consequently, its proponents often become filled with “righteous indignation” at the least suggestion of its untenability.

They seek to discover this idea in the Scriptures, and are confident that they have done so in many places. But their sedulous efforts are in vain, for, it is nowhere expressed, frequently disproved, and only falsely inferred.

What those who advocate “free will” actually mean to stand for by means of this expression is the notion that men have the power of contrary choice: Even though, in fact, we chose as we did, we could have chosen otherwise. That is, we could have done so at that time.

It is not contended (nor is it disputed) that, hypothetically and by itself, we might have chosen otherwise. That is not the idea at all. Instead, it is claimed that, notwithstanding the fact that we did choose as we chose, we nonetheless could have chosen otherwise. This, and this alone, is the question to be resolved.
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Advocates of this position, which should be called, “the power of contrary choice,” prefer to perpetuate it instead under the innocuous and advantageously ambiguous title “free will.” At once, this gives it the advantage of a respectable-sounding name, and makes those few who are constrained to reject the actual doctrine appear as strange extremists, inasmuch as they reject such a well-accepted, desirable and seemingly reasonable concept.

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The advocate of free will actually stands for the position which asserts that man’s choices are uncaused—absolutely devoid of all necessity. And yet he does not realize, or at least he refuses to admit the fact, that the denial of causality will not bring him any closer to what he wants than its advocacy.

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Essentially this matter is a simple one: It is impossible to prevent anything that is the product of a cause from coming into existence; and, it is also impossible to prevent anything that is not the product of a cause from coming into existence. If a truly uncaused event were ever to occur (were such a thing even possible), being the product of nothing, uninfluenced and uninfluenceable, it would simply “show up,” appearing “out of nowhere.” While it would not be brought in, neither could it be kept out.

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Whether “determinism” (i.e., causality), divine or otherwise, is true or false, we cannot possibly be free either way—that is, in a freewill or contrary-choice sense. If we are caused to choose as we do, we cannot help choosing as we do. And, if we are not caused to choose as we do, we still cannot help choosing as we do.

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“Surely we cannot be free agents, in the ordinary, strong, true-responsibility-entailing sense, if determinism is true and we and our actions are ultimately wholly determined by causes which existed anterior to our own personal existence. And surely we can no more be free if determinism is false and it is, ultimately, either wholly or partly a matter of chance or random outcome that we and our actions are as they are.”

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Neither determined nor random will afford any place for free will. Neither determinedness nor randomness (nor any mixture of the two) can give or allow what is wanted, even though between these two the field of possibilities is exhausted. Therefore, contrary choice or “free will” not only does not exist but cannot exist.
 
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OAT: "Sems nyid" or "mind-ness" is the essential characteristic, the sine qua non, the trait without which "sems" would not be "sems" at all; like "humanity" is the sets of traits which make human beings "humans" rather than some other kind of being. You are arguing that "sems" lacks the characteristic of "sems nyid": this is utter confusion. And yes, Samsara and dependent arising are just two phrasings for the exact same thing. To escape from Samsara is, precisely, to escape from dependent arising.

Rodgertutt: the will is neither "determined" nor "random". You are engaging in a false dichotomy. The will is "free", and if you don't understand I can try to explain, but I don't really know what formulation of words might help you to see.
 
The advocate of free will actually stands for the position which asserts that man’s choices are uncaused—absolutely devoid of all necessity. And yet he does not realize, or at least he refuses to admit the fact, that the denial of causality will not bring him any closer to what he wants than its advocacy.

This is a classic straw man argument. Ascribe a position so absurd to your "opponent" that your position looks rational by comparison. I'm unfamiliar with this notion that advocates of free will believe that their choices are "uncaused" or "absolutely devoid of all necessity". Perhaps you could allow me to clear up some apparent confusion.

Buddhist believe firmly in causation. I am 49 years old, and have made many choices in my life that combined with external influences led me to this current moment. Today, I exercised my free will and walked into town to buy some lunch. But unlike your assertion that I somehow believe my choices are uncaused, my understanding is just the opposite. My free choice of what to eat was limited by a number of causes...

• The town that I live in and the choices available in it.
• My dietary restrictions (vegetarianism)
• My budget
• My mode of transportation (walking)
• My predilection for certain types of food

And yet within these limits, I still can "choose" a dozen different options for lunch. Free choice is "free" within the limits of the conditions that exist and my desire or ability to overcome them. Some conditions can't be overcome. It is highly unlikely that I could eat lunch on the moon. However, if the wild mood struck me, I could hop on a plane and still get to San Francisco in time for a nosh... as unlikely as that is.

I just wanted to clear up this misconception that choice exists outside of conditions and causality. If you run across anybody who believes otherwise, please reference their opinion. I'd be curious to read it.
 
Rodgertutt: the will is neither "determined" nor "random". You are engaging in a false dichotomy. The will is "free", and if you don't understand I can try to explain, but I don't really know what formulation of words might help you to see.

Since we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest influence all of the time, there simply cannot be any such thing as "free will."

There are no "formulation of words" that can refute his self-evident truth.
 
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And yet within these limits, I still can "choose" a dozen different options for lunch.

You will choose only what your memory bank dictates to you is the most preferable option on your brain. Your will simpy cannot choose a different option than that.
 
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Since we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest influence all of the time, there simply cannot be any such thing as "free will."

Well, just to let you know, God's will was done with an order for a spinach burrito and I must say, God's will made a delicious choice.

God, by His will, also left the some change in the tip jar.

God's will compels me to end this conversation with you, because apparently God doesn't like circular reasoning.
 
Well, just to let you know, God's will was done with an order for a spinach burrito and I must say, God's will made a delicious choice.

There was no possibility that you could have chosen anything other than the spinich burrito, because choosing it was the strongest influence on your mind.

God, by His will, also left the some change in the tip jar.

You left change in the tip jar because the strongest influence on your mind was that they deserved a tip.

God's will compels me to end this conversation with you, because apparently God doesn't like circular reasoning.

Since we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest influence all of the time, there simply cannot be any such a thing as "free will."

There are no "formulation of words" that can refute his self-evident truth.
 
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You will choose only what your memory bank dictates to you is the most preferable option on your brain. Your will simpy cannot choose a different option than that.

I think I went a lot deeper than that. So many of my life choices (and the external conditions within which I made those choices) created the conditions that I live in today.

It's not just my memory that drove my choice for lunch. It was my workload for the afternoon, the weather, my wallet's contents, and more. The taco truck could have been closed, the proprietor could have been sick, equipment could have broken down, the line of people waiting for their lunch might be too long.

You do a disservice to conditions by reducing them down to just my memory. All of them combine to influence the choices that we make.
 
I think I went a lot deeper than that. So many of my life choices (and the external conditions within which I made those choices) created the conditions that I live in today.

It's not just my memory that drove my choice for lunch. It was my workload for the afternoon, the weather, my wallet's contents, and more. The taco truck could have been closed, the proprietor could have been sick, equipment could have broken down, the line of people waiting for their lunch might be too long.

You do a disservice to conditions by reducing them down to just my memory. All of them combine to influence the choices that we make.

And that combination of influences combined together to dictate your choice.

There is no circular reasoning. The choice starts with the prompting of the combination of strongest influences, and ends with the selection of that choice.

There is no possibilty that you could have chosen anything else.
 
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There is no possibilty that you could have chosen anything else.

And here we will disagree. I see the results as probabilities... not certainties.

The chance that I'll have a spinach burrito for lunch, 40%... a cheese sandwhich, 20%... a protein bar, 20%... nothing, 10%... sharing a beer with a hobo under the freeway overpass, .000000000000000000001%.

I don't know what you get out of making these all a matter of certainty, but the world is full of all kinds of people. If that spins your beanie, that's fine. I also don't get why you're so determined to convince us of your world view. I doubt you'll get very far with that. In fact, I'd say your chances are about .000000000000000000001%.
 
And here we will disagree. I see the results as probabilities... not certainties.

The chance that I'll have a spinach burrito for lunch, 40%... a cheese sandwhich, 20%... a protein bar, 20%... nothing, 10%... sharing a beer with a hobo under the freeway overpass, .000000000000000000001%.

I don't know what you get out of making these all a matter of certainty, but the world is full of all kinds of people. If that spins your beanie, that's fine. I also don't get why you're so determined to convince us of your world view. I doubt you'll get very far with that. In fact, I'd say your chances are about .000000000000000000001%.

There is no possibility that you could have chosen any differently than you did choose, because the strongest influence on your mind CAUSED you to choose the way that you did.

No one has the power of contrary choice. No one can choose what they do not prefer.
 
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There is no possibility that you could have chosen any differently than you did choose, because the strongest influence on your mind CAUSED you to choose the way that you did.

And what does your philosophy do for your life? How am I supposed to find inspiration or enlightenment from "you do what you did because that's what you've done"?
 
And what does your philosophy do for your life? How am I supposed to find inspiration or enlightenment from "you do what you did because that's what you've done"?

The inspiration comes from my confidence that God is in intimate sovereign control over everyone's life, and sooner or later will work everything out for everyone's good.

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 
The inspiration comes from my confidence that God is in intimate sovereign control over everyone's life, and sooner or later will work everything out for everyone's good.

Okay. Like I said, if that works for you...

I'll keep my eye out looking for something new from you rodgertutt, but for now your message is "been there, done that, got the T-shirt and it's somewhere in the back of my closet... I think."

Peace out brother-man.
 
Okay. Like I said, if that works for you...

I'll keep my eye out looking for something new from you rodgertutt, but for now your message is "been there, done that, got the T-shirt and it's somewhere in the back of my closet... I think."

Peace out brother-man.

The end result
THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS
The Restitution of All Things: There Is One God; The Lord Our God Is One; All Things Created By God; All Things Created In Christ; All Things Out Of Him; The Unfragmented One; All Things Through Him; All Things Into Him; Restitution
(read especially the very last paragraph of that link)
 
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Since we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest influence all of the time
Even inanimate objects do not behave that way; your metaphysics is a hangover from obsolete conceptions of how the world works. An electron will commonly be in a state where influences push it in different directions and it can end up doing "A" with a probability of 90% or "B" with a probability of 10%. It will not ALWAYS go in the direction of the strongest influence; sometimes it does quite the other. What "causes" the outcome? This is a matter of grave controversy, but we can certainly exclude the old belief that it was "determined" by the spatiotemporal distribution of material particles; the decision in fact is strictly "independent" (in a technical mathematical sense) of that material distribution. The other possibility that you are willing to consider, that it is "random", is the one that Einstein had a visceral reaction against ("I cannot believe that God plays dice with the world"): this implies some picture of a celestial Casino Royale where angels are spinning trillions of roulette wheels to generate random numbers to make all these decisions; but there is no reason that this is anything like what the underlying process is. My belief is that the decision is made by Unconditioned Mind (by "God's will" if you prefer to phrase it that way). The laws of physics do not "determine" outcomes, but only determine a space of possibilities, within which the decision about which outcome is actualized is "free" (in the sense of: not constrained by anything materially observable).

Within the neurons of the brain (and some other types of cells, but the role in the neurons seems to be particularly important) there are "microtubule" structures which keep a charged molecule in a "quantum indeterminate" state until it decides to discharge or not discharge, a decision which is independent of any distribution of the material particles (it is not determined by our "memories" or anything else that is happening in the material brain). What this does is not yet known, but it is sufficiently unusual for there to be any process whereby microscopic events are allowed to drive macroscopic events that I think we will eventually prove, empirically, that this is crucial.

When there are "strong" influences on my decision, I believe that the case is exactly like that of the electron: all one can say is that there is a 90% likelihood I will go with the stronger influence; and in the 10% of the cases where I go the other way, there is nothing in the material universe that you can point to as the "reason" why I made up my mind as I did.
There are no "formulation of words" that can refute his self-evident truth.
It is not at all "self-evident"; I think it is simply false, and that its falsity will eventually be demonstrable.
 
(read especially the very last paragraph of that link)

What I thought was far more interesting than the last paragraph was the line below the address at the bottom of the page...


All writings are distributed on a free-will basis.


Oh the sweet irony... the sweet, sweet irony.
 
What I thought was far more interesting than the last paragraph was the line below the address at the bottom of the page...

All writings are distributed on a free-will basis.
Oh the sweet irony... the sweet, sweet irony.

All that means is if you WANT to, you can make an offering.
Of course we all do what we WANT to do.
That's not the issue.
The issue is whether or not we could have avoided making an offering, and the answer is no.
The strongest influence CAUSED you to make an offering.
 
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