I have seen Heaven and there is no hell!

[iBrian]

So as to not derail another thread:

I have read in a book that there is Hell. What reason would you have for not therefore believing in Hell is a book said it exists?

In my life so far I have seen Heaven; I have communed regularly with God.

Both involved frames of experiences that would be impossible to describe with rudimentary human language - I can no more describe the intricacies of Heaven or the Divine than an insect could.

But in Heaven I saw no Hell, and experience only the most incredible sense of love beyond any description of magnitude.

I believe the Arabs sometimes describe Heaven as the place of 10,000 orgasms, my presumption being this is describing the intensity of the feeling - but as no one here can comprehend it, it is a simple but illustrative frame of reference.

There was no physical form as we know it, and the spiritual forms we have there are beyond our imagination. Their sense of consciousness is absolutely huge - as different of that of an ant to myself, and greater.

It is a human trait to demand retribution, though - and hope that where we feel wronged, this may be righted even after death.

I am sorry - we are here in this lifetime, all things must be resolved in this lifetime. Life's what we make it.

Perhaps I did not see everything, perhaps I did not understand the experience properly. Perhaps that means there must be a chance that Hell exists.

Alas, of that there was no sign - only all things Beautiful within the Divine.

Even still, when people say there is Hell, because they read it in a book - I reply there is no Hell because I have not seen it, and I have seen Heaven.

I am sorry, but much as I respect education and scholarship, I must side with my own personal experience on this matter.

 

[path_of_one]

Ditto. I have seen many things in books for which there is no evidence, experiential or otherwise, that they actually exist.

The entire genre of fiction, for example, is grounded in this premise.

I fail to see how faith in a place of torment is helpful, but to each their own.

 

[Saltmeister]

In my life so far I have seen Heaven; I have communed regularly with God. But in Heaven I saw no Hell, and experience only the most incredible sense of love beyond any description of magnitude.

You might never see hell. I have reason to believe that those who find heaven stay there. If you die, you will remain in heaven.

I am sorry - we are here in this lifetime, all things must be resolved in this lifetime. Life's what we make it.

Most people think heaven and hell belong in the afterlife. As for me, I believe they exist in both realities -- the earthly/present reality and the afterlife. There is an earthy heaven/hell and an afterlife one. At death, the former merges into the latter.

Perhaps I did not see everything, perhaps I did not understand the experience properly. Perhaps that means there must be a chance that Hell exists.

Even still, when people say there is Hell, because they read it in a book - I reply there is no Hell because I have not seen it, and I have seen Heaven.

You haven't seen God. Does that mean He/he doesn't exist?

 

[path_of_one]

You haven't seen God. Does that mean He/he doesn't exist?

Hey- ya never know! Maybe Brian has seen God!

On hell- I do believe people create for themselves a hell of sorts- a state of being in which they are disconnected from God, from life force.

But I don't believe in a literal place of fiery tormet where devils carry pitchforks and so on. I don't believe God is jealous or needy for anything. I don't believe God sends people to an eternal punishment. This just fundamentally doesn't jive with the God I know and worship.

Is it only me that finds it interesting that in the desert, hell is fire... but among the Norse, hell was a frozen land? Cultural construction is sneaky.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Even still, when people say there is Hell, because they read it in a book - I reply there is no Hell because I have not seen it, and I have seen Heaven.

I am sorry, but much as I respect education and scholarship, I must side with my own personal experience on this matter.

what about people who have seen hell ? surely their experience is as valid as yours ?

 

[iBrian]

what about people who have seen hell ? surely their experience is as valid as yours ?

Not to myself.

NDE's are normally characterised by intense feelings of love, and involve a sense of magnitude not comparable to any human experience.

That's one of the things that differentiates NDE's as an experience from say, a dream or hallucination - it's not simply a different experience, it a different experience of magnitudes.

People who have experiences of fires and hell seem - to myself - may be experiencing something very different - some form of experience based on cultural bias.

I never saw anything that even suggested anything hellish, painful, or involved retribution - however, the whole experience could potentially be interpreted very badly simply because there are no normal frames of reference. Anyone who thinks their ape-like human form somehow defines themselves is in for a rude shock.

So perhaps hellish experiences are because there was less detachment and more active consciousness involved, and therefore the person was left in a situation where they must interpret a whole plethora of alien experiences and sensations in a way that makes sense.

Cultural biases are usually recorded in NDE studies - though interesting I had none (though I wonder if I wasn't recalling a memory of death at birth through strangulation via the umbilical cord).

Perhaps hellish NDE's are even another experience entirely, perhaps even involving feelings of guilt and shame made real through visual expression, such as repressed memories.

Even still, hellish NDE's are rarely reported, and NDE's themselves are poorly understood as it is.

However, due to the power and magnitude of my own experience, and the fact I witnessed it personally, I'm going for a public proclamation of "sorry, no Hell".

I find it fascinating that the modern idea of hell fire comes from historically recent Muslim and Christian theologies, which are rooted in core Jewish beliefs - which themselves appear to deny a substantiated belief in Hell in the first place!

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

I have still not made my mind up about hell, however I believe that the Lord does not want any crap in Heaven, so when we die our false selves that we cling to will be stripped away which could be quite painful so that could be the experience of burning in Hell but its not permanent, thats my opinion anyway.

 

[Snoopy]

For me, I would have thought that however one may define or conceive of the notion of heaven, if one accepts it as a reality in some way then there has to be hell. If there is a yes then there has to be a no.

s.

 

[iBrian]

Why, though, Snoopy?

 

[Thomas]

On hell - I do believe people create for themselves a hell of sorts - a state of being in which they are disconnected from God, from life force.

I think this is closer to the Biblical image of Gehenna as the metaphor employed by Jesus in His preaching.

Gehenna has been identified as a location (its exact whereabouts disputed) outside the city walls, a wasteland for the refuse of Jerusalem. Here the dead bodies of animals (the unclaimed bodies of foreigners?) and rubbish were cast and, according to legend, consumed by a constant fire.

I tend to think that the loss of knowledge of the place as outside the walls, and thus figuratively outside the Kingdom, was occluded by the more volative concept of a place of constant burning ... with the consequence of an emphasis upon punishment and torment, rather than an ultimate dispossession or, as Path suggests, ultimate disconnection.

To me the idea of Gehenna, or hell, is a figure for the more intellectual, and metaphysical, concept of a 'place' that has no place in the divine scheme of things, where one ends up if one elects not to be included in the plan of divine providence. Ontologically and spiritually it is nowhere ... what Jesus is saying is that outside of God there is nowhere else to go, where the logical consequence is final dissolution.

In Christian, and Biblical, mysticism, the desert, as a place outside the city, is very much a reality, and it is not a negative one, but rather apophatically positive — a place of spiritual forging — Israel's 40 year 'wandering' signifies then a cataphatic attitude by the very idea of 'wandering' which suggests a non-conscious state in the sense that the majority cannot 'see' its intrinsic value. In the New Testament, John the Baptist makes the desert his home, and Christ withdrew to the desert when He wanted to commune with God, something He in fact never ceased doing, but something He made apparent by the very act of withdrawal from the world of the senses to a quite place, the interior, for 40 days at the start of His ministry.

At the end, He withdrew to the Garden of Gethsemane, but this was very much a dessert, no, a wasteland, a Gehenna, as it offered no solace in view of the fate that awaited Him ... a palce in which He uttered His most human response, 'thy way, or no way.'

Is it only me that finds it interesting that in the desert, hell is fire... but among the Norse, hell was a frozen land? Cultural construction is sneaky.

Indeed. In Russian Orthodox spirituality, the forest took the place of the desert, and in Celtic spirituality the inhospitable environment of the ocean headlands where they chose to build their monasteries ... or the Buddhist monasteries in Tibet perched upon the mountain edge ... or the hermit's cell.

Today many view the city as a new Gehenna, although I find the images of the shantytown and the monstrous mountains of refuse inhabited by the disposed of Africa or India more telling. And come the 'rapture', I am sure God will look there first, to those who eke a 'living' there ... they, like His Son, have paid the price of our comfortability.

In my view it is not their karma that has placed them there, but our uncaring of the state of our fellow and neighbour.

"Am I my brother's keeper?" The answer is yes, and we are failing dreadfully.

Thomas

 

[shawn]

Personally, I do not accept that there is any kind of paradise which we will go to after we die, so any idea of an eternal hell is also fictional to me.
Perhaps there are other dimensions, but to get there we need to pass through this realm enough times to get it right and evolve to the point where such a transition is possible.
Looking at the lack of spiritual awareness and all the squabbling over religious ideas we as a species are very far from any such an event.

And, passing through this place full of hard, close-minded and cruel people can already be very hellish.
What is anybody doing about that?
How is waiting for God to sort it out taking any kind of responsibility, as a nations of kings and priests should.....hmm?



Neil kind of had a thing or 2 to say which sort of applies:
[youtube]3R7Vf9964kw[/youtube]

STAR OF BETHLEHEM

Ain't it hard when you wake up in the morning
And you find out that those other days are gone?
All you have is memories of happiness
Lingerin' on.

All your dreams and your lovers won't protect you,
They're only passing through you in the end.
They'll leave you stripped of all that they can get to,
And wait for you to come back again.

You might wonder who I can turn to
On this cold and chilly night of gloom
The answer to that question
Is nowhere in this room.

Yet still a light is shining
From that lamp on down the hall.
Maybe the star of Bethlehem
Wasn't a star at all.

 

[path_of_one]

I don't personally believe in a paradisal heaven, either. At least not for myself. Heaven is a state of connection to God, for me. So Heaven is always there, if I choose it.

But in terms of some eternal vacation with a mansion and streets paved in gold, no. This isn't my experience. I don't seem to go somewhere like that. I think I just go 'round and 'round, life after life, each with its purpose and job to do.

That's OK. I like working. I like learning. I am comfortable with living and dying, even the painful parts. God is there, if I am willing.

Heaven's here on earth:

YouTube - Tracy Chapman Heaven's here on earth

 

[Saltmeister]

Why, though, Snoopy?

Actually, I would agree with Snoopy. Heaven and hell are whatever you want them to be. It is your personal heaven, your personal hell.

Personally, I do not accept that there is any kind of paradise which we will go to after we die, so any idea of an eternal hell is also fictional to me.

I don't personally believe in a paradisal heaven, either. At least not for myself. Heaven is a state of connection to God, for me. So Heaven is always there, if I choose it. But in terms of some eternal vacation with a mansion and streets paved in gold, no. This isn't my experience. I don't seem to go somewhere like that. I think I just go 'round and 'round, life after life, each with its purpose and job to do.

Well, this begs the question, what is paradise? In the Abrahamic forum we were discussing the notion of the meek and how the meek will inherit the earth.

I don't think I need to mention that the meek don't need a gold-paved paradise with extravagant mansions. The meek spend their whole lives denying themselves the corrupting influences of greed, jealousy and power. Their heaven is a more modest heaven.

Whoever is first in this world will be last in the kingdom of God. It makes sense doesn't it? Those who live a life of comfort will be confronted with a world that falls short of their desires.

I believe in a subjective heaven and hell. I believe heaven and hell do exist, at least in your mind. You just might not call it heaven or hell. For the meek, there is no hell because the meek have mentally, emotionally and psychologically trained themselves to be able to take anything. This makes heaven and hell relative. If they are confronted with a poverty-stricken world, they will adapt and survive. The meek are a resilient kind. Blessed are the meek.

If I am confident that I can take anything that life throws at me, I can make hell disappear with just a thought. One conquers hell through faith. Evil be gone!!!

If there was a God, He/he wouldn't have to do much. All He/he would need to do is lower our standard of living. The meek will survive. The rest will be so tormented by the horror of a dystopian world that they will either perish or writhe in the agony of a less than ideal world. Many will be so heart-broken that they will lose the will to live. It wouldn't be active torture. Actually those who feel pain will actually be torturing themselves by setting unrealistic demands of their own lifestyles and being unable to find fulfillment. The first will become the last and the last will become the first.

Hell might not be a place of punishment. It might just be a test of mettle. Heaven and hell might actually be the same place. No fire, no torture, just a world of ruin and poverty. A Gehenna. Different people might simply respond differently to it.

Everyone goes to the same place. That makes it fair.

 

[Thomas]

Actually, I would agree with Snoopy. Heaven and hell are whatever you want them to be. It is your personal heaven, your personal hell.

I can never quite accept this ... if this world/life is not as we want them to be, what reason is there to assume that any other is as we want them to be?

The Laws of Physics are not whatever we want them to be ... on what basis do we assume that we predetermine the laws of any other mode of existence? And what about everyone else?

The meek spend their whole lives denying themselves the corrupting influences of greed, jealousy and power. Their heaven is a more modest heaven.

But is it all denial ... do not the meek accept, are not jealousy, greed and power motivated by denial of what is? Do not the meek accept what is, rather than try and bend what is to their own tastes? In which case heaven might be an absolute riot ...

Whoever is first in this world will be last in the kingdom of God. It makes sense doesn't it?

Not if it's subjective ... if it's subjective, it's your kingdom, not God's kingdom. He has no say in it.

I believe in a subjective heaven and hell.

But then who in his or her right mind would choose hell?

I believe heaven and hell do exist, at least in your mind. You just might not call it heaven or hell. For the meek, there is no hell because the meek have mentally, emotionally and psychologically trained themselves to be able to take anything.

God would not bless the meek if being meek means taking anything. Christ was not meek in that sense whatsoever.

If I am confident that I can take anything that life throws at me, I can make hell disappear with just a thought. One conquers hell through faith. Evil be gone!!!

Again ... if a car mounts the curb as you walk along ... can you make that disappear?

Hell might not be a place of punishment. It might just be a test of mettle. Heaven and hell might actually be the same place. No fire, no torture, just a world of ruin and poverty. A Gehenna. Different people might simply respond differently to it. That makes it fair.

'It's not fair' has been the complaint of humanity ever since the Fall, Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent ... 'fair' has nothing to do with it ... Nor do I get the logic?

Thomas

 

[Saltmeister]

I can never quite accept this ... if this world/life is not as we want them to be, what reason is there to assume that any other is as we want them to be?

The Laws of Physics are not whatever we want them to be ... on what basis do we assume that we predetermine the laws of any other mode of existence? And what about everyone else?

I think you misunderstood an important premise that was implied throughout my post. There are always two realities. There is objective reality and subjective reality. The objective reality is the inherent structure of the universe. Subjective reality is one's interpretation, perception, reaction or response to what one observes in a universe.

The objective reality can be defined by mathematics, logic and geometry. It includes phenomena like gravity, photons and electrostatic forces. Subjective reality, however, is a matter of thought, belief and emotion. This will vary from individual to individual.

Heaven and hell are not part of the objective reality. They are subjective. Heaven and hell are an emotional construct, much like a country, its constitution and legal system are socio-political constructs. Countries, constitutions, legal and political systems do not exist as a part of an objective reality. They are "artificial" entities and phenomena, created by sentient beings like you and me.

Heaven and hell, therefore, don't exist. They aren't part of the objective reality. They are artificial. They are dependent on an individual's views and beliefs about the world they are seeing. They are real to at least one person, but not to all.

Love doesn't exist. Emotion doesn't exist. Again, they aren't part of the objective reality. A person has to create them inside his or her subjective reality. Another person's love and emotion is open to interpretation. Emotion is artificial. It is only "real" to the person who feels it and experiences it. To love and feel requires a choice. To accept someone else's love also requires a choice. The need to decide implies that love isn't objective. You create it inside your mind.

The subjective reality is the spiritual part of our existence. It is the place where we make meaning out of the meaningless. Objective reality has no meaning apart from some mathematical, logical and/or geometrical relationship. Objective reality is what it is. You can't change the objective, but you can change the subjective. The objective is fixed; the subjective is mutable. To be . . . or not to be. To love or not to love. That is the question.

Heaven and hell are spiritual and subjective, not objective. Heaven and hell must be created, subjectively, in your mind.

Not if it's subjective ... if it's subjective, it's your kingdom, not God's kingdom. He has no say in it.

It is not to say that you can never be "forced" into a so-called "heaven" or "hell." God could create an objective reality where you can experience this heaven/hell. He could put you in that world without your consent. Objectively, that place is neither heaven nor hell. But in your mind, it is one or the other. The "real" heaven/hell is actually in your mind, not in the place God created. You created your own heaven/hell in your mind before God even put you there. You made up your mind what it was before you even went there.

It is heaven/hell to you, but probably not to God. Objectively, it's just a "place." Whatever pain and suffering you feel is your own. God had nothing to do with it. You can either choose to grumble, or thank God for this place.

The Israelites spent forty years wandering around in the wilderness before they were allowed into the Promised Land. That was forty years of hell, wasn't it? Somehow they were supposed to thank God for it! How ironic!

Remember, you were the one who brought up the wilderness thing . . .

Israel's 40 year 'wandering' signifies then a cataphatic attitude by the very idea of 'wandering' which suggests a non-conscious state in the sense that the majority cannot 'see' its intrinsic value.

At the end, He withdrew to the Garden of Gethsemane, but this was very much a dessert, no, a wasteland, a Gehenna, as it offered no solace in view of the fate that awaited Him ... a palce in which He uttered His most human response, 'thy way, or no way.'

Remember that?

Again ... if a car mounts the curb as you walk along ... can you make that disappear?

The car is not in my mind. It is a part of the objective reality. I can make "hell" disappear if I can persuade myself that it isn't hell that I'm seeing. A car is a physical object. Heaven and hell are spiritual.

'It's not fair' has been the complaint of humanity ever since the Fall, Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent ... 'fair' has nothing to do with it ... Nor do I get the logic?

It's fair if everyone goes to the same place. Everyone gets the same treatment.

 

[iBrian]

Heaven and hell, therefore, don't exist. They aren't part of the objective reality. They are artificial.

What I'm saying is that there is a state of being after death that is one of incredible bliss, but beyond normal comprehension and understanding.

For all intents and purposes could be called "Heaven" in that it is a good way to be after we die.

 

[Thomas]

What I'm saying is that there is a state of being after death that is one of incredible bliss, but beyond normal comprehension and understanding.

For all intents and purposes could be called "Heaven" in that it is a good way to be after we die.

Is that state a state which all experience, regardless? If it is, it sets up some seriously profound moral issues ... ?

Thomas

 

[iBrian]

Is that state a state which all experience, regardless? If it is, it sets up some seriously profound moral issues ... ?

Thomas

Indeed it does - it means it's up to us to clean our own mess up!

 

[Saltmeister]

What I'm saying is that there is a state of being after death that is one of incredible bliss, but beyond normal comprehension and understanding.

For all intents and purposes could be called "Heaven" in that it is a good way to be after we die.

I was just making a suggestion:
1) God puts everybody in the same place.
2) Different people respond to it in different ways
3) Some grumble, some are grateful
4) There won't be a Moses to guide them
5) (Perhaps) God will provide people with mana and quail from the skies

The afterlife doesn't have to be a land of milk and honey. It might be the wilderness. It has been shown that God doesn't have to put people in a lake of fire for them to suffer hardship. Forty years in the wilderness was enough. Sadly, many of them did not enter the Promised Land.

 

[Thomas]

Indeed it does - it means it's up to us to clean our own mess up!

Not on that premise ... if what you suggest was the case, then I think the general attitude would be 'if nothing counts, then live for today — anything goes', surely?

I mean, if the end is an eternity of bliss, regardless, then morality would go straight out the window. The most inviting solution to life would be to take up the option now — I would think suicide numbers would be pandemic.

Thomas