Why would Jesus save?

[Jarrett]

According to the bible man was made by God, in his image, and placed in paradise. After man failed the test as given by the god who is all knowing, he was banished from paradise. Man worked and toiled to live for generations until the law was given. This law was given supposedly to show man the mind of god and our apparent darkness. So for many years the descendants of these people spread this law abroad, creating along the way many systems of man.

My questions:
1.Why would Jesus need to come and save us from what his Father created and then called good?
2.Why would he end the Law of Moses and replace it with Love after the big todo made when the law was given?
3.Why did possibly millions of people gather to receive the law with thundering and earthquakes from a mountain, and only a few wanderers and barn animals congregated with angelic accompaniment to receive the saviour?
4.Why is this same old testament god jealous? If all that is belongs to this god. If you know all things and you are the beginning and end why would you get jealous when it is already yours and you know the outcome?

I think i gnow, do you?

 

[bob x]

"Jealous" in that context does not mean "envious"; it is unfortunate that the English language has mutated since King James's day so that some words come across with the wrong implications (when St. Paul's Cathedral was built, princess Anne described it as "awful, artificial, and amusing!"; that doesn't sound like a good review, but what those words meant back then were "awesome, artistic, and amazing!")

"Zealous" would be a better rendering ("zealous" and "jealous" were originally the same word, but their pronunciations drifted apart as their meanings did).

 

[Thomas]

According to the bible man was made by God, in his image, and placed in paradise.

OK

After man failed the test ...

Where in Scripture does it say 'test'? From here on, you're into your own assumptions and ill-informed speculation.

I think if you're going to pose such questions on this forum, you should be prepared to be taken to task for what is an apparently shallow and flippant interpretation of Scripture.

Considering the document in question has, for some two thousand years, inspired some of the greatest minds the planet has known, and inspired some of the greatest of man's works in both the arts and the sciences, surely should tell you something?

1.Why would Jesus need to come and save us from what his Father created and then called good?

He didn't. God gave man life. Man chose death. Jesus came to address that situation.

2.Why would he end the Law of Moses and replace it with Love after the big todo made when the law was given?

He didn't. The Law of Moses still holds for those who choose to follow it.

3.Why did possibly millions of people gather to receive the law with thundering and earthquakes from a mountain, and only a few wanderers and barn animals congregated with angelic accompaniment to receive the saviour?

To understand that you would need to understand the language of symbol.

4.Why is this same old testament god jealous? If all that is belongs to this god. If you know all things and you are the beginning and end why would you get jealous when it is already yours and you know the outcome?

Already answered.

I think i gnow, do you?

I know how little you understand about what you presume to know.

Thomas

 

[Jarrett]

OK


Where in Scripture does it say 'test'? From here on, you're into your own assumptions and ill-informed speculation.

I think if you're going to pose such questions on this forum, you should be prepared to be taken to task for what is an apparently shallow and flippant interpretation of Scripture.

Considering the document in question has, for some two thousand years, inspired some of the greatest minds the planet has known, and inspired some of the greatest of man's works in both the arts and the sciences, surely should tell you something?


He didn't. God gave man life. Man chose death. Jesus came to address that situation.

He didn't. The Law of Moses still holds for those who choose to follow it.

To understand that you would need to understand the language of symbol.

Already answered.


I know how little you understand about what you presume to know.

Thomas

Where in Scripture does it say 'test'? From here on, you're into your own assumptions and ill-informed speculation.
If Eve had not been beguiled, and inturn not beguiled Adam, the two would have remained in the garden. However, Adam and Eve failed so they were expelled from paradise because they did not pass. They were tried and found guilty.So ok instead of test will call it trial. If they were not on trial, why did an all knowing god place the tree in the garden if not for a test?

Considering the document in question has, for some two thousand years, inspired some of the greatest minds the planet has known, and inspired some of the greatest of man's works in both the arts and the sciences, surely should tell you something?
Of course i agree, many men small and great have been inspired by scriptures. A few that you may not consider are, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Ted kazynski, and quite a few catholic priests. Was it the bible that inspired them?
He didn't. God gave man life. Man chose death. Jesus came to address that situation.
Right he came to save us. But was it from the existence the father had allowed us to fall into? Adam was going to be the supreme leader of earth, but he did not measure up, so by one man all were lost. Christ came and lived perfectly, he achieved what Adam could not, therefore surplanting Satan from his throne in due time. Now by faith in one all will be saved. If Jesus lived a perfect sinless life, then gave himself to open the path for all that follow, why couldn't Adam live a sinless life? Christ was established as the one to save the earth before it was founded, scripture makes this clear. Why then did god allow Adam to fail? For man to be saved did we not need a condition to be saved from? Falling, and being saved was ordained by the Father, man being created was done by god.

He didn't. The Law of Moses still holds for those who choose to follow it.
I hope you dont choose to follow it. Instead i hope you live by the law of Love. That law is no longer our measure of sanctity. We are now known by how well we Love our brother, and how devoted we are to the love of the Father. The book of Galatians makes this crystal clear. When Christ came it ended the old covenant PERIOD

I know how little you understand about what you presume to know.
Do you? Are you sure? I do doubt many of the things i presume to know at times, but then our Father in heaven reminds me of his Love, and how impossible it is to know anything in the bible to be true without the light of illumination. I have experienced illumination. I have sought truth and it has set me free from dogma and tradition. The love in my heart is my witness not some book that has lead to wars, tyranny, and divisions. All scriptures are good for reproving. What did Jesus mean when Jesus said that. Remember the bible was not yet composed and the old testament scriptures were much, much more vast in what was accepted. Within all scriptures are things you should teach and things you should teach against. Without love and illumination you wouldn't gnow what scripture is good for what. But if to you i am ignorance then so be it to you.

Every thing in the bible would need to be taken on faith, especially creation, the exodus, the books of the prophets, and most definately the gospels. I do not put my faith in any of these. Instead i put my trust in Jesus, who i know not because of the bible but because he resides inside of me. I love the bible, but i dont need it to be my measure of truth. Jesus ended the test. The father did not give the test. Who then gave the test. Or did our heavenly father just mess up? When we were created we did not know righteousness, we did not know anything. We couldnt have known we were in paradise because we never experianced the opposite. For us to come to know unconditional love there needed to be a condition. Had we have existed in the garden forever we would have never known the Father who is love. For us to progress in Faith, Hope, and Love, we would need the opposition to faith, hope, and love, (blindness, hopelessness and hate).
Our salvation started at the moment the spirit caused us to walk upright, the moment the spirit was breathed into us. The fall of man was one of the most nescasary parts of our salvation. In fact without it we would have never known we needed him. Pray.

 

[Jarrett]

Shallow? I think not.

 

[wil]

Shallow? I think not.

Namaste Jarrett,

I'm moving this to the Christianity forum where it belongs.

If you are discussing Jesus and the bible you are discussing Christianity, not all Abrahamic religions.

Please place your posts in the proper forum.

But you gnew that.

 

[Jarrett]

Millions of people receive the law, a hand full receive truth.

 

[Jarrett]

Where in Scripture does it say 'test'? From here on, you're into your own assumptions and ill-informed speculation.
If Eve had not been beguiled, and inturn not beguiled Adam, the two would have remained in the garden. However, Adam and Eve failed so they were expelled from paradise because they did not pass. They were tried and found guilty.So ok instead of test will call it trial. If they were not on trial, why did an all knowing god place the tree in the garden if not for a test?

Considering the document in question has, for some two thousand years, inspired some of the greatest minds the planet has known, and inspired some of the greatest of man's works in both the arts and the sciences, surely should tell you something?
Of course i agree, many men small and great have been inspired by scriptures. A few that you may not consider are, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Ted kazynski, and quite a few catholic priests. Was it the bible that inspired them?
He didn't. God gave man life. Man chose death. Jesus came to address that situation.
Right he came to save us. But was it from the existence the father had allowed us to fall into? Adam was going to be the supreme leader of earth, but he did not measure up, so by one man all were lost. Christ came and lived perfectly, he achieved what Adam could not, therefore surplanting Satan from his throne in due time. Now by faith in one all will be saved. If Jesus lived a perfect sinless life, then gave himself to open the path for all that follow, why couldn't Adam live a sinless life? Christ was established as the one to save the earth before it was founded, scripture makes this clear. Why then did god allow Adam to fail? For man to be saved did we not need a condition to be saved from? Falling, and being saved was ordained by the Father, man being created was done by god.

He didn't. The Law of Moses still holds for those who choose to follow it.
I hope you dont choose to follow it. Instead i hope you live by the law of Love. That law is no longer our measure of sanctity. We are now known by how well we Love our brother, and how devoted we are to the love of the Father. The book of Galatians makes this crystal clear. When Christ came it ended the old covenant PERIOD

I know how little you understand about what you presume to know.
Do you? Are you sure? I do doubt many of the things i presume to know at times, but then our Father in heaven reminds me of his Love, and how impossible it is to know anything in the bible to be true without the light of illumination. I have experienced illumination. I have sought truth and it has set me free from dogma and tradition. The love in my heart is my witness not some book that has lead to wars, tyranny, and divisions. All scriptures are good for reproving. What did Jesus mean when Jesus said that. Remember the bible was not yet composed and the old testament scriptures were much, much more vast in what was accepted. Within all scriptures are things you should teach and things you should teach against. Without love and illumination you wouldn't gnow what scripture is good for what. But if to you i am ignorance then so be it to you.

Every thing in the bible would need to be taken on faith, especially creation, the exodus, the books of the prophets, and most definately the gospels. I do not put my faith in any of these. Instead i put my trust in Jesus, who i know not because of the bible but because he resides inside of me. I love the bible, but i dont need it to be my measure of truth. Jesus ended the test. The father did not give the test. Who then gave the test. Or did our heavenly father just mess up? When we were created we did not know righteousness, we did not know anything. We couldnt have known we were in paradise because we never experianced the opposite. For us to come to know unconditional love there needed to be a condition. Had we have existed in the garden forever we would have never known the Father who is love. For us to progress in Faith, Hope, and Love, we would need the opposition to faith, hope, and love, (blindness, hopelessness and hate).
Our salvation started at the moment the spirit caused us to walk upright, the moment the spirit was breathed into us. The fall of man was one of the most nescasary parts of our salvation. In fact without it we would have never known we needed him. Pray.

Namaste Jarrett,

I'm moving this to the Christianity forum where it belongs.

If you are discussing Jesus and the bible you are discussing Christianity, not all Abrahamic religions.

Please place your posts in the proper forum.

But you gnew that.[/Q
Namaste wil,
Boy that Gandhi had some wonderfull things to say about Jesus. He and i also have similiar opinions about christianity. Do i need to go into a hindu forum to say that? I see in my head a marketplace with walls sectioned off so that we all fit just right so as not to step on anyones toes. Bah Humbug

 

[wil]

Namaste wil,
Boy that Gandhi had some wonderfull things to say about Jesus. He and i also have similiar opinions about christianity. Do i need to go into a hindu forum to say that? I see in my head a marketplace with walls sectioned off so that we all fit just right so as not to step on anyones toes. Bah Humbug

Ohy he sure did.

Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Again, this is a discussion forum, I'm trying to make that clear.

 

[Amergin]

According to the bible man was made by God, in his image, and placed in paradise. After man failed the test as given by the god who is all knowing, he was banished from paradise. Man worked and toiled to live for generations until the law was given. This law was given supposedly to show man the mind of god and our apparent darkness. So for many years the descendants of these people spread this law abroad, creating along the way many systems of man.

It is a waste of time to try to find rationality and logic in a myth that is so self-contradictory and distorted by numerous writers over the centuries. The answer is that you can not make sense out of Christian Dogma if you include any of the Old Testament.

My questions:
1.Why would Jesus need to come and save us from what his Father created and then called good?

It is irrational, psychotic thinking. That is the only way I can explain it. None of it makes sense. Here is my common language translation.

Joe Hovah conjured up man and woman with magic words. He intentionally made them ignorant of right and wrong but curious to learn. He plants a tree whose fruit gives knowledge. Adam and Eve sought knowledge because our brains are programmed to do that. Joe Hovah forbids them from eating the fruit (i.e. seeking truth.) When man's curiosity exceeds the fear of the Monster in the Sky, he eats the fruit and becomes smart.

Joe is furious. Now man knows as much as the gods. He condemns us all to die. But in a psychotic state of mind he agrees to forgive man if they will torture and crucify his only son, Jesus Hovah. That makes no sense. Jesus Hovah resurrects fulfilling the redemption. Opps, it didn't work. We are still born with Original Sin. So the whole scheme failed.

2.Why would he end the Law of Moses and replace it with Love after the big todo made when the law was given?

The only story that makes sense is the Albigensian (so called) Heresy. Question 2 is unanswerable. The closest to rationality is Albigensianism, Catharism, Bogomilism. The Creator of the Earth and man was Evil. He was Satan or JHWH. All of the evil deeds he did in the O.T. fit his status as the Supreme Demon. Jesus came to earth as the good God. He preaches against almost everything Joe Hovah (Satan) said and did. Instead Jesus preaches love, compassion, mercy, forgiveness to overthrow the Dark Reign of the Evil Creator God. Jesus brings light against the Darkness. Opps, it did not work either. Humans are still largely homicidal savages, who lie, steal, enslave others, abuse their wives, and molest children.

3.Why did possibly millions of people gather to receive the law with thundering and earthquakes from a mountain, and only a few wanderers and barn animals congregated with angelic accompaniment to receive the saviour?

JHWH (Joe Hovah) aka Darth Vader ruled by abject fear, pain, and torture. He demanded submissiveness and ignorance while forbidding inquiry or searching for truth.

Jesus (Jesus Hovah) is the tragic hero. He fights the evil dominance of the Dark God of creation. Jesus the hero is symbolised by the Star, saviour of the poor and down trodden, preaching against his evil father. He brings freedom, preaches mercy and forgiveness. He must do it quietly in a stable be born with shepherds attending, and gifts from three Zoroastrian Priests (Magi). WHAT? Zoroastrians following a star. That came from Mithra's story. Who has the copyright?

4.Why is this same old testament god jealous? If all that is belongs to this god. If you know all things and you are the beginning and end why would you get jealous when it is already yours and you know the outcome?

I think i gnow, do you?

Clever Greek symbolism, eh?

Yes. the War Lord who invented JHWH in his own image to put fear of God in his people, gave his creation JHWH, his own personality. Since the War Lord was always jealous of rivals and rebels, he made his God jealous.

Amergin

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Why would Jesus save ?

well because Jesus is pretty amazing and he loves you, he loves you so much that he died for you !

thats my opinion anyway

 

[Dogbrain]

It is irrational, psychotic thinking. That is the only way I can explain it. None of it makes sense.

You do not understand something and conclude that it is "psychotic", thereby branding all believing Christians as "psychotic".

Your "diagnosis" says more truth about you than about the targets of your keyboard crusade.

PS: Since you still seem to be on the "science" kick, just what are your publications in your field? I provided mine, after all.

 

[Dogbrain]

Why would Jesus save ?

well because Jesus is pretty amazing and he loves you, he loves you so much that he died for you !

Very Western of you.

The West has badly distorted Salvation. Christ's death was really of secondary importance. It was His Resurrection that is the true center. The West became dominated by a bloodthirsty legalism and raised "atonement" to such importance within the Incarnation that it created a view of God as a fundamentally evil being. Western theologians then had to go through all manner of verbal gymnastics to preserve God's "goodness" while still portraying Him as a bloodthirsty, merciless, evil thing.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Very Western of you.

if you say so

The West has badly distorted Salvation. Christ's death was really of secondary importance. It was His Resurrection that is the true center. The West became dominated by a bloodthirsty legalism and raised "atonement" to such importance within the Incarnation that it created a view of God as a fundamentally evil being. Western theologians then had to go through all manner of verbal gymnastics to preserve God's "goodness" while still portraying Him as a bloodthirsty, merciless, evil thing.

and again if you say so

 

[shawn]

The whole mythos being discussed is very badly misunderstood and has been subject to numerous distortions for thousands of years.
Good luck trying to convince those "who believe" though.

We need a "whipping a dead horse" emoticon.
like this perhaps:

 

[citizenzen]

Considering the document in question has, for some two thousand years, inspired some of the greatest minds the planet has known, and inspired some of the greatest of man's works in both the arts and the sciences, surely should tell you something?

It tells me that people find inspiration from things.

It doesn't tell me anything more that that.

People find inspiration from sunsets.

What does that tell you about sunsets?

 

[Amergin]

"Jealous" in that context does not mean "envious"; it is unfortunate that the English language has mutated since King James's day so that some words come across with the wrong implications (when St. Paul's Cathedral was built, princess Anne described it as "awful, artificial, and amusing!"; that doesn't sound like a good review, but what those words meant back then were "awesome, artistic, and amazing!")

"Zealous" would be a better rendering ("zealous" and "jealous" were originally the same word, but their pronunciations drifted apart as their meanings did).

If Jealousy means murdering 3000 Jews who after Exodus reverted to their older religion and built a golden calf, then it is a very evil form of zealous or even madness.

We know that God according to the Bible is an evil sadistic monster. He supposedly killed all men, women, children, babies, and pregnant mothers in the entire world with an impossible flood. He also murdered a million million non-human animals because some adult humans sinned but the sin is not described.

Why quibble over the word jealousy? I deal with it because it shows for certain that God is imaginary and designed on the model of a Stone Age or Bronze Age savage war lord. The War Lord was jealous of competition, vindictive, violent, inspired fear, and demanded abject obedience, and demeaning worship.

I don't care what linguists spin on the word, "jealousy." The point is that God is a caracature of a very violent savage human.

That is why religion is so prominent among schizophrenics, and a vast population of delusional people who obey because of fear, and treat unbelievers with hate.

Amergin

 

[Dogbrain]

Good luck trying to convince those "who believe" though.

Anyone who agrees with a given speaker is rational. Anyone who disagrees with that given speaker is ignorant, psychotic, evil, and all three, combined.

Just ask said given speaker.

 

[Gatekeeper]

According to the bible man was made by God, in his image, and placed in paradise. After man failed the test as given by the god who is all knowing, he was banished from paradise.

I don't think man 'failed' anything. We did exactly what was intended for us to do. Yes we fell, but because of the fall we now know good AND evil, and can now choose between the two with understanding. God didn't punish man for the choice made in the garden, but rather allowed the natural consequences take effect.

Man worked and toiled to live for generations until the law was given. This law was given supposedly to show man the mind of god and our apparent darkness. So for many years the descendants of these people spread this law abroad, creating along the way many systems of man.

Man had become extremely wicked (Lawless) at this point, so the mosaic law was given to help maintain some order on earth. Just as it was given to make the way straight for (Lead us towards) Gods spiritual law of love --represented by Jesus--.

John the baptist came representing the mosaic law, but Jesus came to show us a better way. The mosaic law was very much needed, but scripture tells us that Jesus (Or rather what He represents) is preferred above John (Mosaic law).

This is because the mosaic law shows us our wickedness (So we might realize our carnal state). The spiritual law of Love (The way of Christ) takes that wickedness out of our hearts. Jesus lived according to this spiritual law showing us how to live an abundant life, whereby we are able to attain salvation (Freedom/Liberty) from evil (Calamity).

My questions:

1.Why would Jesus need to come and save us from what his Father created and then called good?

Jesus showed us how to get back to good. Salvation is simply the act of being freed from condemnation. This takes earnest repentance (A deep rooted change of heart) and it comes by means of the Spirit (Love).

I can say that Jesus is my savior. He is the one that enabled 'me' to understand the truth that I know. His recorded life helped me to realize what is important, and helps me walk in the light of life (I'm not above believing that there are others like Jesus who also represent the --light of life-- however).

I believe that all will one day come to know the truth of God and will come to live through His Spirit (Love) but only after we ourselves allow Gods Spirit to take over, making us vessels of light. I think it is only a matter of time till we wise up and learn to live according to Gods perfect law and through the Spirit (Love) --Just as Jesus Himself did--

2.Why would he end the Law of Moses and replace it with Love after the big todo made when the law was given?

We must learn to crawl before we are able to walk.

3.Why did possibly millions of people gather to receive the law with thundering and earthquakes from a mountain, and only a few wanderers and barn animals congregated with angelic accompaniment to receive the saviour?

There is but one light, one truth, and one way that leads to life. This way, truth, and light that leads us to life is love (Gods Spirit) rooted in mankind. Jesus was the first of many sons and daughters of God who not only receive the Spirit, but who have nurtured it within themselves, allowing it to form a deepness of root. Once we are grounded and rooted in love, our lives are lived according to Gods will, and not our own.

4.Why is this same old testament god jealous? If all that is belongs to this god. If you know all things and you are the beginning and end why would you get jealous when it is already yours and you know the outcome?

I think i gnow, do you?

He's not jealous in the sense that we use the term today, but He IS amazingly merciful, just, holy, forgiving, and loving. All that exists exists for our benefit and I believe that God simply waits for us to realize His goodness. When we allow His Spirit (Love) to be our compass, we will then be saved (Free) and we will know without doubt that our Creator is good and that His son/s and daughters are truly the light/s of the world.

Love is the cure for our disease.....

 

[Gatekeeper]

If Jealousy means murdering 3000 Jews who after Exodus reverted to their older religion and built a golden calf, then it is a very evil form of zealous or even madness.

We know that God according to the Bible is an evil sadistic monster. He supposedly killed all men, women, children, babies, and pregnant mothers in the entire world with an impossible flood. He also murdered a million million non-human animals because some adult humans sinned but the sin is not described.

Why quibble over the word jealousy? I deal with it because it shows for certain that God is imaginary and designed on the model of a Stone Age or Bronze Age savage war lord. The War Lord was jealous of competition, vindictive, violent, inspired fear, and demanded abject obedience, and demeaning worship.

I don't care what linguists spin on the word, "jealousy." The point is that God is a caracature of a very violent savage human.

That is why religion is so prominent among schizophrenics, and a vast population of delusional people who obey because of fear, and treat unbelievers with hate.

Amergin

Yup, man can conjure up concepts of God that are down right frightening. I think it was done in order to gain control of the masses (Through fear). Not much different than the introduction of a firey hell in the NT propagated by today's Christian religious leaders. [IF] God exists and is the creator of all things, then I'm quite certain that He's a pretty good fella.

For those who don't believe in God .... I think it is enough to live your life with a genuine love for your fellow man. I suppose if you loved love enough you would do your best to live your life through it, extending it towards those you come in contact with.

I'm one who believes that Jesus epitomized the goodness of God simply by living His life through Gods Spirit (Love). Many do not think that this Spirit is enough. My view is that God [IS] love and that His Spirit can change both an individual AND the world. The cross simply symbolizes the act of dying to self/ish will, while attaining a new will, whereby we come to live as care takers instead of trying to conquer and rule.

I don't believe that God dishes out punishment, nor do I believe that He orders the murder of helpless infants, etc. Perhaps those stories came from primitive man (Maybe deceitful men) and carried on by word of mouth? These stories were passed down generation after generation until they became 'holy' writings.

It amazes me how much fear played a role in the development of today's religions (Kinda crazy if you think about it). Schizo? Maybe jus a lil ....

Religion in today's world sux for the most part. Even so, I do have faith in Love. When mankind realizes that love is answer, and the way to freedom, happiness, AND an abundant life, we will then be on the road to heaven on earth. Until then, we are ruled by our selfish will by which evil came to manifest on this planet.

On a side note .... We are all potential Christs (IMO). Christ is just another way to say "anointed" with/by love (God). I'm also one who believes that believer and atheist alike are able to live their lives by and through this quickening (Life giving) Spirit.

The gates of heaven are open

There is no need to knock

The key rests silently

within the heart of

every living being

waiting to be

utilized

by all


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