The Darkness of Unknowing

Thomas

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It struck me in a discussion elsewhere of the Christian Mysteries that whilst the word 'gnosis' claims an inordinate amount of attention these days, for the orthodox Christian, there is a higher state still: agnosia or unknowing.

This apophatic term was used by a prince of Christian Mystics, Denys the Areopagite, a Syrian monk writing some time in the sixth century.

The idea however is implicit in both the Gospel of John and the Letters of St Paul; it's there in the Fathers, notably Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory of Nazianzen; it's there in St Maximus the Confessor, Johann Scottus Eriugena wrote extensively upon it (in his brilliant synthesis of apophatic and cataphatic theology), and Nicholas of Cusa developed it in his Doctrine of Divine Ignorance.

And, perhaps its most famous exemplar is, of course, Meister Eckhart.

... Now this I think signifies that the most Divine and Highest of the things seen and contemplated are a sort of suggestive expression, 'of the things subject to Him Who is above all, through which His wholly inconceivable Presence is shown, reaching to the highest spiritual summits of His most holy places; and then he (Moses) is freed from them who are both seen and seeing, and enters into the gloom of the Agnosia; a gloom veritably mystic, within which he closes all perceptions of knowledge and enters into the altogether impalpable and unseen, being wholly of Him Who is beyond all, and of none, neither himself nor other; and by inactivity of all knowledge, united in his better part to. the altogether Unknown, and by knowing nothing, knowing above mind.

We pray to enter within the super-bright gloom, and through not seeing and not knowing, to see and to know that the not to see nor to know is itself the above sight and knowledge. For this is veritably to see and to know and to celebrate super-essentially the Superessential, through the abstraction of all existing things ... And, it is necessary, as I think, to celebrate the abstractions in an opposite way to the definitions. For, we used to place these latter by beginning from the foremost and descending through the middle to the lowest, but, in this case, by making the ascents from the lowest to the highest, we abstract everything, in order that, without veil, we may know that Agnosia, which is enshrouded under all the known, in all things that be, and may see that superessential gloom, which is hidden by all the light in existing things
Denys the Areopagite
Mystical Theology, Book I, Chapters 1 & 2

Thomas
 
I would be truly shocked if he hadn't :eek: :p

True. Why did I ask? LOL :D

I guess it's more like... thoughts? I read it a few years ago and was very inspired, and it also made my own journey make a lot more sense to me. However, there were particular doctrinal and practical aspects I did not agree with. Not surprising. :eek:
 
Hi both —

Yes ... a long time ago ... something I have to get back to, at some time.

The Cloud is founded on the Denys tradition, ans stands in the corpus of the English mystical tradition — Richard Rolle, Walter Hilton, Julian of Norwich.

Thomas
 
a higher state still

madhurya-bhava-rasa (sweet ecstatic mellow)


Such unknowning-ness is spoken of in the orthodox Vaishnava Text of India, wherein: The innocent young cowherd girls of the village of Krishna's youth maddeningly wretched from "feelings-of-seperation" from their beloved Krishna.
Herein Krishna's status of being God in his "original-original-form" as a cowherd boy was not taken into consideration by the "Gopees" (the cowherd girls) ---there was an ecstatic revelry that is known only in the most elevated state of Love-of-God, "Feeling-of-Seperation".

"Feeling-of-Seperation" enforse selfless unconditional yearning.
The Gopis are known to Chastise God Himself for neglecting their desires to embrace him ---they indeed find solace in the knowledge that He will return shortly from whatever pastimes He is engaged in and that they (the Gopis) will never be seperated from the eventual reciprocal interpersonal exchanges of affairs with Krishna.

The Maha-mantra is taught to be done in a way similar to how a baby cries for mother.

The helplessness of the Invocation of God's Grace must be repeated vigilant cry for help ---the rest is a process of witnessing that which informs future prayer.

A state of zero-Anxiety allows contemplative time to see our true state of unknowingness ---from whence, surrender to such helplessness, affords a blissful aloofness.

Such aloofness saves one from spending time among the "Worldly Unknowing" incontrast with spending time among the "Knowers of the Unknown".


Chant the name of God incessently
[while others handle your retirement funds & tax forms],
Bhaktajan
 
Hi both —

Yes ... a long time ago ... something I have to get back to, at some time.

The Cloud is founded on the Denys tradition, ans stands in the corpus of the English mystical tradition — Richard Rolle, Walter Hilton, Julian of Norwich.

Thomas
Some historical trivia about "Dionysii". The "pseudo-Areopagite" treatise you cite was indeed largely composed in 6th-century Syria, but traces back in sections to the 3rd-century work of Dionysius of Corinth. The characters:

Dionysius of Athens: first-generation Christian, called the "Areopagite", converted by Paul. He was the reason the name "Dionysius" had a surge of popularity two hundred years later.

Dionysius of Rome: patriarch (the term "Pope" was not yet in popular usage) from ~259-267. Taught that Jesus and YHWH were the same in substantia, in arguments against the Marcionites who believed the Old Testament god was an inferior being, the "demiurge" created by the Most High God as his agent for making the world, who was unable to perceive the Most High and therefore thought of himself as the highest being, falling into prideful error and leading mankind into evil (demiurge = YHWH and Satan thrown into a blender).

Dionysius of Alexandria: contemporary patriarch who taught that Jesus and YHWH were different in hypostasis, in arguments against Sabellius who was teaching that they were identical, and that the Creator Himself was submitting to suffering on the Cross (the "Patripassian" position). This caused a serious theological rift with Rome.

Dionysius of Corinth: contemporary bishop who acted as peacemaker; hence this was called "the affair of the three Dionysii". He suggested that although Latin substantia and Greek hypostasis were formed from the same roots in the same way, the Latins and the Greeks just were not meaning the same thing by the words (the exact English analogue of substantia and hypostasis is understanding which is a totally different meaning from either!) He proposed that Rome could accept what Alexandria was saying about a difference in hypostasis if it was translated into Latin as "two personae"; and that Alexandria could accept what Rome was saying about a union in substantia if this was translated into Greek as homoousios; this linguistic compromise is crucial to the later credological codifications at Nicaea and Chalcedon. His letters were circulated, and somebody turned them into a treatise in his name, which amused him greatly when it got back to him. Comparing this to the rash of pseudepigraphic gospels and epistles of that time, he said, "If they will do this to someone yet living, it is no wonder they do the same to the Apostles." After he was dead, of course this treatise was made even more pseudepigraphic by getting a new attribution to the original Dionysius of Athens.

Dionysius of Paris: roughly contemporaneous to the three Dionysii, he was a slave from northern Gaul who was bought, converted, baptized into the name Dionysius (his original name is not preserved), and emancipated by a Christian master. He went back to evangelize his homeland, becoming the patron "Saint Denys" of France. Capetian monarchs identified him, of course, with Dionysius of Athens: this was probably not a mistake, but a deliberate propagandistic ploy to assert that the church of France was as old as, or even older than, the church of Rome and therefore should not have to obey the Pope (the Gallican/Ultramontane controversy would continue for centuries). A side-effect is that the "pseudo-Areopagite" treatise became required reading at the University of Paris.
 
Darkness of unknowing....interesting title eh?

Light = wisdom, knowledge, knowing

Darkness = unknowing?

Nicodemus came in the night...came to Jesus looking for the light...

Unknowing...does it imply action? Meditation, it isn't what you think.

Is there a difference between unknowing and not knowing?

Is there a corollary between unknowing and unlearning?
 
Darkness of unknowing....interesting title eh?
Interesting idea.

Light = wisdom, knowledge, knowing
of forms, or veils.

Darkness = unknowing?
Looking through the veils

Nicodemus came in the night...came to Jesus looking for the light...
Yep.

Unknowing...does it imply action?
In a 'being in the moment' kind of way, yes. Philosophically, 'being' is an act.

Meditation, it isn't what you think.
Well it has its object, which indicates a thought process?

Is there a difference between unknowing and not knowing?
Well I would say one kind of not knowing is everything becomes veiled in opacity, another kind is everything becomes translucent.

Is there a corollary between unknowing and unlearning?
I think so ... in the sense that un-learning is when what you know becomes solved (as in dis-solved), untying the knots ...

... what I am facing now would say that that which knows is prior to that which is known. It's the turning point at which the subject becomes prior to the object which it knows.

It's all a question of veils.

A while ago there was a discussion about 'thinking outside the box' — by definition only the Infinite transcends all boxes.

Thomas
 
BTW, We never fear the 'unknown',
We always fear the "Known".

Insurance companies issue insurance because of the 'Known' ---which is to be feared by all people; especially those who have their livelyhood based on it.

The 'Unknown' is not feared nor even considered important.

The Gambling casinos know what the odds are ---there is no "known" fears for the Gambling casinos, for 'the House always Wins'.

The myth, "You never know when You might win; so go ahead and Gamble" ---This is a falsehood.

Professional Gambler "Card-Counters" are expelled from casinos ---because they are 'Knowers'. Always beware of those in the know.



We never fear the 'unknown' ---We always fear the "Known".
This is something I heard said by Deepak Chopra ---which I agree with.
 
BTW, We never fear the 'unknown'
I'm not sure I agree ... I think there is a fear of the unknown ... irrational, but then fear of the known can be just as irrational.

Fear of the dark, for example ...

I might even suggest that many people don't want to know God because deep inside they fear being known ...

And then many people fear even themselves ...

As the sage said, "Just because you don't know who they are, doesn't mean they're not out to get you!" Wait ... no ... hang on, sorry ... he wasn't a sage, he was a psycho. (Apologies, no offence meant, I fear I cannot resist a bad joke)

Thomas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas
hang on, sorry ... he wasn't a sage, he was a psycho.

If only I had a nickel for every time somebody's made THAT mistake!

This is the guiding maxim behind television Cartoons and Burger King Commercials.
"Bad-Boys, Bad-Boys, Whaccha goin' to do when they come for you? Bad-Boys,Bad-Boys . . . " ---and now a word from our sponsers . . .

Cynical? Sardonic? Ironic?
 
I'm not sure I agree ... I think there is a fear of the unknown ... irrational, but then fear of the known can be just as irrational.

Fear of the dark, for example ...

I might even suggest that many people don't want to know God because deep inside they fear being known ...

And then many people fear even themselves ...

As the sage said, "Just because you don't know who they are, doesn't mean they're not out to get you!" Wait ... no ... hang on, sorry ... he wasn't a sage, he was a psycho. (Apologies, no offence meant, I fear I cannot resist a bad joke)

Thomas

"Teenagers think they are invincible" ---yet, auto-insurance companies charge higher rates to teen drivers!

"A child will put their hand into a fire" ---unless you 'teach your children them well'

"a fear of the unknown (might be) ... irrational, but then fear of the known can be just as irrational" ---both are RATIONALISATIONS.

"Safe-Sex" ---must be vigilantly taught. Only innocent (unknowning) will "Follow-Their-Lust" without constraint or without informed Guidance first.
 
My new World Manifesto:

We the Stupid see that it is an concominant fact that we the people of Stupidity incarnate, must educate future generations to be proper stewards of the common stupid by regulating stupidity so as to minimise the constant and unending experience of stupidity against our fellow stupids enmass.

The Rat race, Circus attendees, Gambling House devotees, Propaganda mongers & soul-killers extraordinaire are the Status Quo --thus, it is encumbant that those who can think conherently for more than 8 Hours per day should display all public accounting of Financial Funds in a 24/7 Score-board.

Let those born in ignorance avoid the onslought of the Stupitity of earlier generations from mucking-up the common stupid citisen's lot in life.

Stupidity corrupts; absolute Stupidity corrupts absolutely.

Let us now embark on a new movement to codify Stupitity along with all its minor forms and thus stop future generations from being really stupid pawns in a society lead but really smart stupid leaders.

Let us start a fund to do the neccessary scientific research to reveal the true nature of Stupidity and its causes and its cure.

May God Help us in this Quest by bestowing us with more intelligence than most of our 20th Century World leaders who stupidly went along with scores of their citisen straight to hell.

Let us make Stupidity a scientific fact of life.

Let us make Stupidity a basis for legal offense.

Let us bring down our Taxes by exposing the roots of Stupidity.

====================================
Witness to the welfare of the general stupidity:

x Bhaktajan .
x P.T. Barnum
x MARVEL COMIC'S Villains
x Tabloid Editors the World Over
x Itchy and Scratchy
x Tom and Jerry
x....................


References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century
......................................................................
PS: This is not a snide reference to the posters on these forums ---I am referring to a New Movement to Codify "Stupidity" as a Legal definition. But yes, the above is also written as a satire ---yet art reflects life too.
 
The stupidity is no accident.
Done with malice and premeditated thought......engineered in fact.
We are aphids.....so who are the ants?
They are in the darkness of your collective unknowing.
But they are not imaginary.....far from it.

Proverbs 6:6
Consider the ant, you lazy bum(O sluggard). Watch its ways, and become wise.

King James Bible Proverbs 1:22
How long, ye simple (stupid) ones, will ye love simplicity(stupidity)? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
 
I found this very funny indeed.

But it is NOT The Heights of Great Historic Stupid as I am referring to.

I have heard of a Mother driving on the motorway with a auto full of kids that ran into another car head on killing herself, all the kids and a man in the other car. She was found to have been drunk ---yet her Husband later said she never drank!

AND THEN, less than a week later the same thing happened in another place with a different drunk driving Mother with a load of kids ---again, all died, but except that time the woman survived.

Negligence? Short-sighted? Self-centered? ---Yeah, Yeah, Yeah! BUT really a case of STUPIDITY PAR EXCELLANCE.

Your Honor, my client is very responsible and civic minded ---my client is simply stupid, not a murderer . . .
 
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