Belgium has become the first European country to approve a ban on the burka

[shawn]

From my point of view, there is no murder but what we choose to remember as murder because you always have to define murder. You always have to justify what you deem to be murder. It is a way of remembering what happened. It speaks of the legacy of the event.

Different people will remember things differently.
The soldier who shoots an insurgent, or a terrorist or whatever other tag they wish to call them, will go away from the event with one perspective, while those who cared for and loved the shot person will see things very differently.
It is all a matter of perspective....isn't it.
I see all people as one family which has been intentionally divided and set upon each other.
This is a problem....a huge problem which holds us back.
Retards us.
This is what I am driving at with my previous statements.
Others will of course, disagree, as they are stuck in their paradigm.(IMO)
But, whose paradigm will make the world a better place?
The one where we can kill with impunity because some evil old b@astards said it was OK cuz they want to make a buck and have control for their master plan?
Or the one which sees all people as one tribe and one family, where we help each other to make real progress, which has compassion for each other and not enmity?

 

[Saltmeister]

Agreed....it is something that needs to change...all aspects of it.

Chris,

You have brought an important point, how being beautiful can be just as stifling as covering up is. Being a beautiful woman has been described as "being under a state of constant siege." There is also the issue of how women must spend a lot of time and money to look "beautiful," when that time and money could be better spent elsewhere.

I think the solution is to abolish the separate fashions for men and women. Turn the separate fashions into two separate subcultures (we can't get rid of them straight away). That's basically what manhood and womanhood are -- they are two subcultures. In the meantime, men and women can wear the same clothes, eliminating the in-grained gender roles that they have. Women will wear shirts and trousers and stop distinguishing themselves from the men. Men will look like women and women will look like men.

Retail and department stores will stop selling gender-specific clothes. Even bras (which supposedly increase the chances of breast cancer) will be eliminated.

Women wouldn't have to try to be beautiful anymore but nor would they have to cover up. The trouble with pursuing beauty and covering up is that they both perpetuate gender roles. So the solution is easy: eliminate womanhood. Eliminate gender roles.

 

[Muslimwoman]

The thing I said about women trying less hard to be beautiful and men trying less hard to be macho was not meant to be sexist, but aimed at making society less sexist. The men of today are already less macho than a century ago. We don't go around defending our honour, fighting over the ladies (she's mine! Get your hands off her! Stay away from her!) and challenging someone to a sword or gun duel every time we get insulted.

But I don't want to dress like a man I like being a girlie, I like pink, frilly things, high heels and make up .... I just don't like showing it off to everyone.

You are also an enlightened human being and in the minority. Men are generally still macho and do still fight over the ladies (usually with the ladies encouraging this). Any Friday night out at a bar shows that we are not as evolved as we like to think I'm afraid.

- Women who cover up because their husbands want them to or tell them to.

I am split on this one, if their husband tells them to then it's a no from me but if he asks her to and she doesn't mind because it helps her marriage then I say let her make that choice. (by the way these things are usually decided before marriage in my limited experience)

-Women who are being controlled and hidden away by jealous and controlling husbands

Are you saying they are being forced to cover or they have agreed to cover because they have a jealous husband?

- Women who cover up because they are victims of a society that wants to keep them useless and incompetent

I am thinking Afghanistan here because they also banned women from working and education ... is this the type of thing you mean?

-Women who mean well, but are being slowly and insidiously affected by a constant need to 'hide.' (I had a Muslim friend, and whenever I would drop over at his house unannounced to visit him, his wife would drop everything -- including dinner that was cooking on the stove -- and literally run and hide in a bedroom until I left. There was no question in my mind that such behavior was having some sort of negative effect on her.)

Which culture is she from? When my husbands friends visit him I go to the bedroom and watch tv and when my friends visit he does the same. In my experience it's a cultural thing, women do not mix with men outside the family and men do not mix with women outside their family. If a married couple visits or a group of men and women then nobody "hides".

My ideal, then, is to see which women belong to which groups. For those who cover up for the wrong reason, my ideal is to see them stop covering up.

I would agree with you on this, although my criteria would be broader ... ask if woman if she had a choice, if she says yes then leave her to dress as she likes and if she says no then that's who we need to fight for.

My question to you is, do you think she was guilty of murder?

Strangely that is not such an easy question to answer. I believe Japanese women believe they would be a bad mother if they committed suicide and left their children as orphans. It is easy to say she tried (and succeeded) to murder them but was her intent to protect them? Perhaps she was in an abusive marriage and could think of no other way out?

I would say yes she killed them but not necessarily murdered them (I know murder is killing with intent but I tend to think of malice when I say murder).

The net result is the same: controlling women.

Hi Chris

The control of women has been on my mind for some time now. The Taliban in Afghanistan and the Huddod Ordinence ... both attacked women. This is not limited to patriarchal societies.. when was the last time you heard of a war where women were not raped (I have never heard of one, even with Western forces). Have you heard any suggestion in the media that people are suggesting a ban on male Islamic dress to control terrorism? It seems that if you want to attack any group you do so through women .... as a woman I object!!

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

The control of women has been on my mind for some time now. The Taliban in Afghanistan and the Huddod Ordinence ... both attacked women. This is not limited to patriarchal societies.. when was the last time you heard of a war where women were not raped (I have never heard of one, even with Western forces). Have you heard any suggestion in the media that people are suggesting a ban on male Islamic dress to control terrorism? It seems that if you want to attack any group you do so through women .... as a woman I object!!

Well, being raped beats being killed, and that's the fate of men in war. The fact is that males are expendable. Part of the reason for keeping women under control is that with them in charge our real expendability is exposed. We have to make a role for ourselves. What's ironic is that that role has traditionally involved voluntarily killing ourselves off by having wars! I guess the payoff is that we keep women terrorized and under our control. We're either stuck in that cycle, or we can choose a more enlightened path, but that involves confronting the programming that essentially welds society and culture together. It's super hard to paddle upstream against those cultural currents.

Chris

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW,

You said,

"…if he asks her to and she doesn't mind because it helps her marriage then I say let her make that choice."

--> I respect your way to feel this way, even though I disagree.

"Women who are being controlled and hidden away by jealous and controlling husbands" --> "Are you saying they are being forced to cover or they have agreed to cover because they have a jealous husband?"

--> I am talking about both possibilities.

"Women who cover up because they are victims of a society that wants to keep them useless and incompetent." --> "I am thinking Afghanistan here because they also banned women from working and education ... is this the type of thing you mean?"

--> Actually, I was thinking more of countries where women cannot drive a car, cannot travel abroad without their husband’s permission, etc. (I believe Saudi Arabia is such a country, is it? Is Afghanistan?)

"I had a Muslim friend, and whenever I would drop over at his house unannounced to visit him, his wife would drop everything -- including dinner that was cooking on the stove -- and literally run and hide in a bedroom until I left." --> "Which culture is she from?"

--> I do not know.

"When my husbands friends visit him I go to the bedroom and watch tv and when my friends visit he does the same. In my experience it's a cultural thing, women do not mix with men outside the family and men do not mix with women outside their family. If a married couple visits or a group of men and women then nobody "hides"."

--> There are three issues here. One is that one spouse often does not hang out in a room when the other spouse is talking with friends, because such discussions are often boring to the first spouse. The other issue is that and men ‘should’ not mix with women outside their family, which is an entirely different issue. The last issue is the all-important issue of jealousy and sexual temptation. I feel that learning to deal with these issues is an important part of growing up, and Islamic culture does not allow Muslims to learn how to deal with these important issues, and become fully mature in a well-rounded way.

"…ask if woman if she had a choice, if she says yes then leave her to dress as she likes and if she says no then that's who we need to fight for."

--> I agree. But this does not address the times when a woman has no choice, or the situation where she is slowly and insidiously suffering psychological damage and is not even aware it is happening to her.

"…was her intent to protect them?"

--> I say killing a child in order to ‘protect’ him or her is still murder. Also, I do not know if there are any cultures left which still perform human sacrifices to the gods, but I would also characterize such human sacrifices as murder.

Let me explain why I brought up the example of the Japanese lady: If you saw a Muslim woman who was beginning to suffer psychological damage because of wearing a niqab, yet she was perfectly willing to wear one for the rest of her life, do you think it would be your responsibility to tell her that she was suffering such psychological damage? If the lady lived in a foreign country, would that foreign country have the right to pass a law preventing such psychological damage, even if the Muslim woman objected? I say yes, just like what happened with the Japanese lady.

"Have you heard any suggestion in the media that people are suggesting a ban on male Islamic dress to control terrorism?"

--> This is not a fair comparison. I feel that women are damaging themselves psychologically by covering up. The men are not damaging themselves psychologically by wearing Islamic dress. I believe this psychological damage issue is a big reason why countries are banning the niqab, why your Imam told you not to wear a niqab in England, and I think there is great value in such bannings and situations requiring the giving of such advice.

Clearly, there are two sides to this debate, and both sides have valid arguements to justify their side of the debate. We can only hope that this discussion here helps everyone better understand the other side's reasoning and motivations.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hey MW, I thought you might like this comic strip. (Read this comic strip and then click on the right arrow to read the continuation of the story.)

For Better or For Worse - Yahoo! News

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

When I was working in Libya in the 70s I was sorry to see that the seats towards the front of the bus were reserved for men while the women sat on the floor at the back. To me that showed a great lack of respect. I was also sorry to see that while I was in Saudi Arabia, women were not allowed to drive. I look forward to a time when there can be more respectful treatment of women in the Middle East.

However that time will not be hastened by me lecturing Muslims on how they should behave. It's too easy to forget that in the West womens rights were won with great difficulty over many years, and as recent posts agree, we still haven't reached an acceptable position. There is an on-going dialogue across the Muslim world and there is some movement taking place. We can help liberalisers best by not threatening the values their culture holds dear. Attacks on their way of life from foreigners only help the hard-liners.

Any change has its consequences. When I grew up in the 50s, women were expected to be homemakers. They had few opportunities for employment and were trivialised by male society. But because they stayed home, the children were properly looked after, there was little vandalism or bad behaviour, little crime, neighbourhoods were cared for, local shops thrived, people generally felt safe. We now have conditions where most women have to work whether they want to or not, just to get enough money to live. Areas where I grew up are now desperate dumps to avoid if at all possible. This is what women's rights have achieved in England.

I'm not for a moment suggesting they should not have these rights, I'm only pointing out that when you make a change you have to deal with the consequences.

 

[shawn]

Virtual_Cliff:
Any change has its consequences. When I grew up in the 50s, women were expected to be homemakers. They had few opportunities for employment and were trivialised by male society. But because they stayed home, the children were properly looked after, there was little vandalism or bad behaviour, little crime, neighbourhoods were cared for, local shops thrived, people generally felt safe. We now have conditions where most women have to work whether they want to or not, just to get enough money to live. Areas where I grew up are now desperate dumps to avoid if at all possible. This is what women's rights have achieved in England.

While I agree that some of the consequences you mention will have something to do with that, it is very small, as IMO the consequences are the direct result of politics and economics.
Money science has more to do with the problems we face today than gender issues.

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

Yes it's a complex issue which maybe belongs in another thread. But I think it''s to do with dehumanisation: when neighbourhoods turned into dormitory suburbs, the homes became just houses, the neighbours became strangers, no-one ever came to your door, no-one knew or cared who you were, and a rootless shiftless generation grew up with no idea of belonging or identity.

Much as I hate to agree with David Cameron, this is a sick society and we haven't even begun to see where it all went wrong.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Cliff,

Well said! There is one more huge issue. Women do not stay home and give their children nurturing love any more (because, as you say, they can't afford to, they have to go out and work). As a result, we are raising a generation of neurotic children, and it will end up destroying our society.

 

[Saltmeister]

But I think it''s to do with dehumanisation: when neighbourhoods turned into dormitory suburbs, the homes became just houses, the neighbours became strangers, no-one ever came to your door, no-one knew or cared who you were, and a rootless shiftless generation grew up with no idea of belonging or identity.

Women do not stay home and give their children nurturing love any more (because, as you say, they can't afford to, they have to go out and work). As a result, we are raising a generation of neurotic children, and it will end up destroying our society.

This is how consumer- and market-driven capitalism works. Every individual in society is turned into a consumer, male and female, young and old. But to be able to consume, you need a disposable income and to get that, you need a job. Today's society regards every individual as a potential consumer.

Of course, some women are still baby-making machines. Some boys and girls lose their virginity at a young age and become teenager fathers and mothers. I have met quite a few teenage fathers lately and I wondered, what is that guy doing with a baby?

The politicians and economists deliberately structured the economy so that some of us would be adolescent child-bearers (the ones who cry out, "Honey, we're pregnant!" at a young age) and the rest of us would be career-focused mind-labourers (scientists, engineers, accountants, teachers, academics, office staff). I will not neglect to mention the technicians and tradespeople. They are in this as well.

The latter kind are the mind- and slave-labouring consumers who work to spend. They make money but can't keep it because the politicians want them to spend it. They have to spend because they envy their neighbours. They see other people in their society enjoying themselves and want what they have. Everybody is competing against others to live ever more luxurious, glamorous and extravagant lives. It's a "shop till you drop" society.

This is why people don't have time for kids. They are too busy aiming for the life of extravagance. They want a house of their own and get a home loan. Their money goes into paying off a mortgage or rent. I think it would have been better for them to just live with their parents. Why buy a home or pay rent when your parents can share their home with you?

Why do people keep sinking money into something that costs several hundred thousand dollars? That is a thousand times more than a computer. Most people could live on a computer, food, water, pens and paper, a television, a phone and public transport. They could do all that if they could live with their parents.

But the politicians, economists and lawyers are betting on you leaving the home of your parents and buying your own home. There is social pressure that compels people to do that. You envy your friends for living separately. Being able to live separately from your family is an achievement. So out of shame and embarrassment, people choose not to live in the same home as their parents.

Nick_the_Pilot, you live in China. You must be aware that traditionally, the Chinese used to congregate in large families. The idea of leaving the home of your parents and living separately from them is something that has become popular in modern society.

People in poorer countries wouldn't mind sharing rooms with five or so people. They're used to it. The modern Western individual has a "big life" (so to speak) that requires that he/she exclude others from their living quarters. He/she has a room all to him/herself. The life of the Western individual is "bigger" than those in poorer countries. I think the life of the Western individual will continually get bigger. Contentment will become an ever more elusive goal. Bigger is never enough.

The younger generation can have a better and "bigger" life than the older generation. It is easy to get that life when you're a kid, but when you grow up, you have to work for it and nothing ever satisfies completely. You work hard to find that "bigger life" you envisioned as a child at the expense of your children. That is why children always suffer.

Western countries already have the technology and economic strength to feed all their citizens, but because life keeps getting bigger, people keep having to work hard for something they don't really need.

There is a good reason why many Western countries have a trade deficit. They already have too much. They consume more than they produce.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

...which brings us back to the original question. Muslims are trying to stop these things from happening. Having women wear burkas and niqabs, and keeping women as posessions and second-class citizens accomplish these things. But we must not throw out the baby with the bath water in a pursuit of purity. (Bad pun, I know, I know, but I just couldn't resist....)

We must admit that Muslims say that Western civilization is going to hell because of rampant western sexuality, and they are right. (But it would be nice if they would also admit our side of the argument, that burkas and niqabs may cause psychological hangups and inhibit the reaching of full adult maturity.) Both sides need to reach out to each other.

 

[Dogbrain]

We must admit that Muslims say that Western civilization is going to hell because of rampant western sexuality, and they are right.

Really? Are you sure that this is the case? How do you know that "rampant western sexuality" is not a reaction to Western civilization going to hell rather than a cause of it?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"Really? Are you sure that this is the case?"

--> Yes.

"How do you know that "rampant western sexuality" is not a reaction to Western civilization going to hell rather than a cause of it?"

--> It is a fascinating question. It seems to be a chicken-or-egg kind of question. But it is clear to me that the two issues go hand in hand.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Well, being raped beats being killed, and that's the fate of men in war.

And most survivors of rape would agree with you but they were not brought up in a society where a woman's honour is considered null and void if she is raped .. unfortunately to some of these women they believe death would be a much better option. I watched a harrowing documentary recently about the rape victims in an African country after the civil war (sorry can't remember which country) and I sat here in tears as husbands refused to take back wives because their honour had been removed. The women were not just poor women in villages, rich women in cities were also gang raped for belonging to the "wrong tribe".

We know of various areas in the world where rape victims are almost expected to take their own lives, as the "honourable thing to do". I will see myself in hell before I ever accept any society viewing women in this way and we should all work to re-educate men on the issue .... but will that be easy when clearly our own men still do not understand it or we wouldn't see the rape stats in our countries so high and some of our troops doing it in wartime?! I was just intrigued as to why this seems to be a phenomenon of war in every culture throughout history.

--> I am talking about both possibilities.

What if you have a jealous wife and she asks you to wear shorts on the beach instead of speedo's? Would you be happy to make the small change in order to satisfy your wife or would you wear speedos and to hell with her "issues"?

--> Actually, I was thinking more of countries where women cannot drive a car, cannot travel abroad without their husband’s permission, etc. (I believe Saudi Arabia is such a country, is it? Is Afghanistan?)

Saudi is certainy such a country to a degree but women are very well educated there I understand. I find their society rather strange in that they will not let women drive but husbands will employ foreign men to drive their wives ... erm surely a woman driving is less likely to get up to any hanky panky than if she spends half her day with a strange man?! Afghanistan under the Taliban was another world altogether, women were not allowed to work or be educated but they were also not allowed to be seen by male doctors .... so how do women see docotrs if women are not allowed to work as doctors?! I would fight for the freedom of choice of woein bo contes but if they then choose niqab I would respect that choice.

The last issue is the all-important issue of jealousy and sexual temptation.

I think here you need to understand that this is not simply a one way issue in Arab countries. Last week a friend of my husbands came online to tell my husband his wife had thrown a fit and gone to stay with her father ..... his dreadful crime? He had opened a facebook page (wherein he has just 1 friend, my husband) in order for them to chat while he is staying here. Of course over there the West (and it's internet) is seen as the devils playground (largely borne out by the silly things some Arab men get up to on the net with western women), so this young wife, who went to university, works and does not wear niqab saw the danger in allowing her husband such freedom and his refusa to delete his FB page led to her leaving.

Before dismissing this and saying it is proof that Arab societies fail to become "rounded human beings" can you just google "is cyber sex cheating" and look at the majority view in the West now that having sex on webcam with someone is really no worse than watching porn. To me this is not evidence of a well rounded society, despite our freedoms.

--> I agree. But this does not address the times when a woman has no choice, or the situation where she is slowly and insidiously suffering psychological damage and is not even aware it is happening to her.

If the woman has no choice then for me it is wrong and we should fight against it but we must first establish if she had no choice. I cannot agree with this "stockholm syndrome" argument, which I myself held before going there and speaking to women ... which is really what we all need to do before making judgements about the why and wherefore of these womens lives.

If the lady lived in a foreign country, would that foreign country have the right to pass a law preventing such psychological damage, even if the Muslim woman objected? I say yes, just like what happened with the Japanese lady.

Do you have any evidence, other than assumption, that these women are psychologically damaged? I'm afraid I find this rather belittling. What if I said women who don bikini and go on a beach are pschologically damaged by the pressure to look or dress a certain way. In some instances this may be true but I would expect a majority of women who wear bikini's would tell me where to stick my opinion!

"Have you heard any suggestion in the media that people are suggesting a ban on male Islamic dress to control terrorism?"

--> This is not a fair comparison.

I think it is a very fair comparison because when I asked repeatedly, on another thread, for people on this forum citing that niqab was used regularly in criminal activity nobody was able to provide any sort of proof to back this up. I myself came up with 2 examples in the Western world ... hardly something to go around changing our laws over. Niqabi's are happy to show their faces when they need to be identified by police or security. Others on this forum, who support the ban, have talked about the need to curb extremist behaviour ... the conclusion being that niqab is an outward sign that someone is at the very least on the road to extremism. So why shouldn't we discuss why men's "extreme" dress is not an issue?

Hey MW, I thought you might like this comic strip. (Read this comic strip and then click on the right arrow to read the continuation of the story.)

Bravo, thoroughly enjoyed it, thanks for the link.

When I was working in Libya in the 70s I was sorry to see that the seats towards the front of the bus were reserved for men while the women sat on the floor at the back.

I think things are changing. When I have travelled on buses if a woman gets on the bus alone my husband will move and get me to sit next to the woman. Respect for women is shown in this way but they are climbing up the social ladder out of 3rd class citizenship but as you so rightly pointed out with Western women's struggle for equality, it is a slow process and must be driven from within.

We can help liberalisers best by not threatening the values their culture holds dear. Attacks on their way of life from foreigners only help the hard-liners.

Very well said and I agree completely. One thing we in the west must let go of is our assumptions about these women and by attacking the thing they hold closest to their chest will simply give men cause to return to the "stay at home" policy.

We now have conditions where most women have to work whether they want to or not, just to get enough money to live.

I have to say I felt totally ashamed when my family in law came for dinner the first time ... I had gone all the way to Cairo to buy food and they played with it as though I had offered bowls of slop. My sister in law bravely ate it and then asked if I would like her to teach me to cook "real food" as I had used tinned italian tomatoes and frozen peas in my cooking The women are so proud of their role in the home, they make their own bread and you can visit day or night and they have food ready to offer you. It put me to shame.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW,

You asked,

"What if you have a jealous wife and she asks you to wear shorts on the beach instead of speedo's?"

--> I give marriage counseling, and I have found jealousy to be a very big issue. I have very specific thoughts on how jealousy must be handled. First, the couple must sit down and make three lists; what behavior is okay, what is not okay, and what falls in the middle. (The speedo issue sounds like it would fall into the middle group.) Also, people must be very upfront about what makes them jealous, and they must also be honest and admit every time they feel jealous. (Some people disagree with me on this, but that is how I feel.)

To answer your question, there is a third choice (that most people are unaware of). Her and I would sit down and see if she felt that her jealousy was making her make an unrealistic demand. If she felt so, then I would provide understanding, support, tenderness, and encouragement for her to deal with the jealous feelings she felt as I continued to wear speedos. The whole issue of jealousy is very complicated, most people refuse to bring up the subject (a huge mistake), and it is one of the issues that I feel that wearing a niqab relates to.

"Would you be happy to make the small change in order to satisfy your wife or would you wear speedos and to hell with her "issues"?"

--> There is a third choice. I would sit down with her and work it out
with her, as I have said. I would also recognize my desire to say the hell with her as a serious conflict within the relationship. As a matter of fact, I once broke up with a girlfriend over such an issue. We had a disagreement, she absolutely refused to try to see my side of the issue, I refused to let her be so closed-minded and later stonewall about it, and we broke up not too long after that.

"…surely a woman driving is less likely to get up to any hanky panky than if she spends half her day with a strange man?!"

--> One of the biggest causes of hanky panky is proximity. This is a good example of fundamentalism causing more bad than good, creating the very proximity that may lead to disaster.

"… his wife had thrown a fit and gone to stay with her father ..... his dreadful crime? He had opened a facebook page (wherein he has just 1 friend, my husband) in order for them to chat while he is staying here."

--> I would say this fits into unacceptable jealousy. She needs to work on her insecurities, and he needs to work on being nurturing and supportive of her as she works on this. (These are both skills that can be learned, and I teach such skills.) I hope the two of them were able to work this out. I have found jealousy to be one of the most painful examples of being needy.

"…having sex on webcam with someone is really no worse than watching porn."

--> As a matter of fact, I was just reading a discussion on an Internet relationships forum about this issue. I now realize that it is worse than porn, somewhere between porn and prostitution, and it is cheating (whereas I feel porn is not cheating).

"To me this is not evidence of a well rounded society, despite our freedoms."

--> I agree that western society is not well-rounded. I feel that both western and Muslim societies are not well-rounded, just in different ways.

"Do you have any evidence, other than assumption, that these women are psychologically damaged?"

--> No. But I must say in my defense that I can only imagine that, if a woman has to turn off the stove, interrupt her preparation of dinner, and literally run into a bedroom just because I drop by to visit my friend, it must be psychologically damaging.

"I'm afraid I find this rather belittling."

--> I see her need to stop cooking dinner and literally run into a bedroom and hide as just as belittling. She was definitely hiding. And I see the need to stop cooking dinner as just as important as needing to hide. Question: Does their form of Islam require the husband to interrupt something he is working on and have him go hide in a bedroom when one of her friends shows up?

"What if I said women who don bikini and go on a beach are pschologically damaged by the pressure to look or dress a certain way."

--> I think some western women are damaged by such pressure. I know some horror stories of women suffering to keep up with the impossible challenge to be beautiful in the western sense of the word.

"In some instances this may be true but I would expect a majority of women who wear bikini's would tell me where to stick my opinion!"

--> Again, it is a balance — having some women wear a bikini, others not, and having everyone be happy with such an arrangement. Sadly, we have not yet arrived at such arrangement in the western world. Do you remember the Mamas and the Papas? In the beginning, the group would appear on stage, but Mama Cass would sing from offstage, she was so embarrassed by her girth.

"…why shouldn't we discuss why men's "extreme" dress is not an issue?"

--> Because the issue here is psychological damage, not terrorism.
　

 

[farhan]

This is how consumer- and market-driven capitalism works. Every individual in society is turned into a consumer, male and female, young and old. But to be able to consume, you need a disposable income and to get that, you need a job. Today's society regards every individual as a potential consumer.

Of course, some women are still baby-making machines. Some boys and girls lose their virginity at a young age and become teenager fathers and mothers. I have met quite a few teenage fathers lately and I wondered, what is that guy doing with a baby?

The politicians and economists deliberately structured the economy so that some of us would be adolescent child-bearers (the ones who cry out, "Honey, we're pregnant!" at a young age) and the rest of us would be career-focused mind-labourers (scientists, engineers, accountants, teachers, academics, office staff). I will not neglect to mention the technicians and tradespeople. They are in this as well.

The latter kind are the mind- and slave-labouring consumers who work to spend. They make money but can't keep it because the politicians want them to spend it. They have to spend because they envy their neighbours. They see other people in their society enjoying themselves and want what they have. Everybody is competing against others to live ever more luxurious, glamorous and extravagant lives. It's a "shop till you drop" society.

This is why people don't have time for kids. They are too busy aiming for the life of extravagance. They want a house of their own and get a home loan. Their money goes into paying off a mortgage or rent. I think it would have been better for them to just live with their parents. Why buy a home or pay rent when your parents can share their home with you?

Why do people keep sinking money into something that costs several hundred thousand dollars? That is a thousand times more than a computer. Most people could live on a computer, food, water, pens and paper, a television, a phone and public transport. They could do all that if they could live with their parents.

But the politicians, economists and lawyers are betting on you leaving the home of your parents and buying your own home. There is social pressure that compels people to do that. You envy your friends for living separately. Being able to live separately from your family is an achievement. So out of shame and embarrassment, people choose not to live in the same home as their parents.

Nick_the_Pilot, you live in China. You must be aware that traditionally, the Chinese used to congregate in large families. The idea of leaving the home of your parents and living separately from them is something that has become popular in modern society.

People in poorer countries wouldn't mind sharing rooms with five or so people. They're used to it. The modern Western individual has a "big life" (so to speak) that requires that he/she exclude others from their living quarters. He/she has a room all to him/herself. The life of the Western individual is "bigger" than those in poorer countries. I think the life of the Western individual will continually get bigger. Contentment will become an ever more elusive goal. Bigger is never enough.

The younger generation can have a better and "bigger" life than the older generation. It is easy to get that life when you're a kid, but when you grow up, you have to work for it and nothing ever satisfies completely. You work hard to find that "bigger life" you envisioned as a child at the expense of your children. That is why children always suffer.

Western countries already have the technology and economic strength to feed all their citizens, but because life keeps getting bigger, people keep having to work hard for something they don't really need.

There is a good reason why many Western countries have a trade deficit. They already have too much. They consume more than they produce.

wow, i wish i could send you a hundred dollar note for this post

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

not enough room in my parents houses.

 

[farhan]

Having women wear burkas and niqabs, and keeping women as posessions and second-class citizens accomplish these things.

How does a woman wearing anything makes her a possession or 2nd class citizen?

that burkas and niqabs may cause psychological hangups and inhibit the reaching of full adult maturity.

There is a lot that can be said about this. How does wearing a top not cause psychological hangups and inhibit the reaching of full adult maturity? Whats wrong in being topless? or being nude? wouldnt working around nude women give more adult maturity? I am not kidding you know, just taking your argument to the extreme, stress testing it. So I would love to hear some intelligent answers.

 

[shawn]

People are entirely too hung up on these body issues.

What if you have a jealous wife and she asks you to wear shorts on the beach instead of speedo's? Would you be happy to make the small change in order to satisfy your wife or would you wear speedos and to hell with her "issues"?

Actually, yes, hell is a good place for her to put such issues.
Actually, just remove all the pathetic attempts at clothing that bikinis and swimsuits are and just go nude.
Most of those don't conceal anything anyway so why bother.
Beaches and swimming pools should be compulsory, no clothing.
Get over it.
We all look funny and strange.
We all have genitals.
But by putting up the veil, the fig leaf, we create the tantalization of mystery.
And this leads to all the issues.
The saying goes...."familiarity brings contempt".
So, becoming acclimatized to something renders it powerless.

I saw a picture of 4 women from some African tribe, the ones that do up their hair in red mud and 3 were standing there all bare breasted like it is nothing, with expressions like you would see in the grocery line, and the 4th was curious like she was somehow embarrassed, and she had some kind of bra or bikini top disguised to blend in, but if you looked closer she was actually a European who was dressed native for the picture with body paint and mud in hair, etc, so you had to look close to see that she was different, but it was the expression which gave her away.
For the others, to walk around with breasts exposed was nothing....didn't even cross the mind that it was an issue, yet for the other it was like a taboo and she wasn't even close to going full native.

Weird...isn't it.

All this christian (or other religious), proper upbringing has really given people a lot of psychological hang-ups.
So how do you reverse it and reprogram?
20 some years ago I was thinking about this and it came up in conversation with my wife to be, so we spent a part of our honeymoon at the nudist beach in Vancouver.
And we met at a christian college.
Neither of us are into orgies or cyber-sex or anything like that.
And yes the first bit of time was a bit difficult for me as males are visually programmed to respond to naked females and walking around in public with a woody was a bit strange (not constant mind you, but on again off again). But after a while, I saw that it wasn't viewed as problematic..nobody pointing and laughing or anything and I wasn't the only male so afflicted, and after a few days I became much more relaxed as the novelty factor wore off and I didn't react as programmed, which put me in control of my body rather than the other way around which it was at the beginning.
Acclimatization took a few days and then there was no embarrassment or awkwardness and I found the experience to be very psychologically liberating/freeing.
Look how men and women at a function will look each other over, all dressed and wrapped in ways that conceal, yet reveal and so the men will be checking out the women and vs versa, mostly surreptitiously, but on the beach I found that there was nothing to play such games with, no costumes/props and so those games weren't played thus you could relate without such things cropping up.
Familiarity vs. mystery.
We don't go to such places often, but the few time we have we have learned some very fundamentally important lessons which both of us have found beneficial.

The thing is how do you change faulty programming in the human organism?
This goes back to the first instance of this recorded in Genesis.
Ashamed of nakedness and looking for fig leafs.
I say to hell with the fig leafs and overcome your stupid hang-ups already, or you will never be free.