Belgium has become the first European country to approve a ban on the burka

[Muslimwoman]

So, becoming acclimatized to something renders it powerless.

there has been a tv documentary on recently, which I admit I chose not to watch, following a social experiment of everyone in a design business going to work naked (naked Friday). The experiment was not about sexuality or nudity but about team building.

Employees work naked to boost team spirit Greenwich Diva: Keeping it "REAL" in Greenwich, Connecticut, and around the WORLD

I am sure if we all went round naked we would all quickly get used to it but personally I like a bit of mystery and like knowing that only my hubby see's me that way.

It would be a boring old world if we were all the same.

 

[shawn]

Kind of missed the point.... didn't you.

 

[Muslimwoman]

What point? I asked Nick the Pilot if he would change his dress to please his wife and you answered no, then went on to explain that you and your wife have no such hangups.

Given you answer I though you might find the social experiment interesting but clearly not or was I meant to have a eurica moment and rush off to a nudist beach on reading your post?

 

[Muslimwoman]

First, the couple must sit down and make three lists; what behavior is okay, what is not okay, and what falls in the middle. (The speedo issue sounds like it would fall into the middle group.) Also, people must be very upfront about what makes them jealous, and they must also be honest and admit every time they feel jealous. (Some people disagree with me on this, but that is how I feel.)

Hi Nick, thanks for your reply. This is why I love discussion, there is so much in your post I can agree with and believe could lead to understanding of each others stance, even if we don't support htose views.

If she felt so, then I would provide understanding, support, tenderness, and encouragement for her to deal with the jealous feelings she felt as I continued to wear speedos.

What if she didn't feel so and insisted it made her uncomfortable watching women watch your lunch box swaying as you walk down the beach?

The whole issue of jealousy is very complicated, most people refuse to bring up the subject (a huge mistake), and it is one of the issues that I feel that wearing a niqab relates to.

Trust me, of the Muslims I have met, nobody has such issues with bringing up the subject of jealousy as we do in the West.

Perhaps this is where we need to think about whether niqab is simply the result of jealousy in men. My husbands neice is in Uni in Cairo. She chose to wear niqab at 15, against her fathers wishes. There was no jealousy and no man controlling her. Her mother didn't wear niqab, she has no sisters and none of her friends wore it. She was actually refused entry to her school because niqab was not worn there. Clearly in this example it was a clear choice that she herself made and not driven by jealousy or male influence. So why would it be assumed that she is the odd woman out and everyone else in niqab is driven by male jealousy?

"Would you be happy to make the small change in order to satisfy your wife or would you wear speedos and to hell with her "issues"?"

--> There is a third choice. I would sit down with her and work it out with her, as I have said. I would also recognize my desire to say the hell with her as a serious conflict within the relationship.

May I play devils advocate here .... yes you said you would work it out with her but your answer entailed her accepting she was unreasonably jealous and you wouldn't alter your behaviour because you would be supportive until she came around to your way of thinking. So how is that different to a Muslim man or woman "supporting" their spouse until they come around to their way of thinking?

--> I would say this fits into unacceptable jealousy. She needs to work on her insecurities, and he needs to work on being nurturing and supportive of her as she works on this.

Is it her insecurities or do they simply recognise the dangers of offering too much freedom to one's spouse? Her behaviour is not unusual for that community. Is this cultural learning, yes I think so but I have to accept it generally works.

--> As a matter of fact, I was just reading a discussion on an Internet relationships forum about this issue. I now realize that it is worse than porn, somewhere between porn and prostitution, and it is cheating (whereas I feel porn is not cheating).

This may surprise you but I would agree. One requires no participation and one does ... yet it seems to be becoming more acceptable.

--> I agree that western society is not well-rounded. I feel that both western and Muslim societies are not well-rounded, just in different ways.

Agreed but where is the right point, either way we turn it seems to be a slippery slope, as demonstrated by both societies.

--> No. But I must say in my defense that I can only imagine that, if a woman has to turn off the stove, interrupt her preparation of dinner, and literally run into a bedroom just because I drop by to visit my friend, it must be psychologically damaging.

My husbands family are very conservative but if I was cooking and hubby came home with friends he would simply inform me people were there and pass me my niqab, so I didn't get embarrassed and walk out with my hair flowing. Once I had finished cooking either I would feed everyone if I had made enough food or switch it off until they leave. If they stayed to eat I would eat alone in the bedroom or office. I have not found it damaging in any way, I find it respectful but maybe that's why I fit in there?!

Question: Does their form of Islam require the husband to interrupt something he is working on and have him go hide in a bedroom when one of her friends shows up?

Hmmm am trying to understand whether you are seeing the same thing my hubby would see in her home. In Egypt if I came home with women friends yes my hubby would stop what he was doing and go into another room, sometimes he would bring us drinks through but he would knock and wait to be told it's ok to enter the room. So yes it usually cuts both ways in my experience.

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

"Would you be happy to make the small change in order to satisfy your wife or would you wear speedos and to hell with her "issues"?"

May I play devils advocate here .... yes you said you would work it out with her but your answer entailed her accepting she was unreasonably jealous and you wouldn't alter your behaviour because you would be supportive until she came around to your way of thinking. So how is that different to a Muslim man or woman "supporting" their spouse until they come around to their way of thinking?

Hey, Nick. You know, I think she's nailed you on that one. You come across as a nice decent guy, but here's an issue you need to work on. She's got you fair and square. -cliff

 

[shawn]

What point? I asked Nick the Pilot if he would change his dress to please his wife and you answered no, then went on to explain that you and your wife have no such hangups.

Given you answer I though you might find the social experiment interesting but clearly not or was I meant to have a eurica moment and rush off to a nudist beach on reading your post?

The link was great...thanks.
Good on them.
The point was not that you need to go run out to the nudist beach, that was just anecdotal.
The point was that familiarity breeds contempt (or at least it removes the unknown factor) and the mysterious will always arouse curiosity and get the imagination fired up.
The weird thing is, religions, which ought to know better, are the prime culprits behind this.

 

[Saltmeister]

The weird thing is, religions, which ought to know better, are the prime culprits behind this.

Religions are supposed to make us wiser. But very often they promote bad habits rather than stimulating constructive thinking.

 

[Muslimwoman]

The link was great...thanks.
Good on them.
The point was not that you need to go run out to the nudist beach, that was just anecdotal.
The point was that familiarity breeds contempt (or at least it removes the unknown factor) and the mysterious will always arouse curiosity and get the imagination fired up.
The weird thing is, religions, which ought to know better, are the prime culprits behind this.

Shawn I am perfectly aware that familiarity breeds contempt, we only need look at what was considered sexual taboos a century ago to what we consider them now. A topless woman advertising a breast milk pump would have caused outrage just 50 years ago but now naked women are used to sell toothpaste and nobody bats an eye. I think we have gone too far and our situation actually fosters sexual predators but thats another story.

If a Muslim woman in the UK asked me if she should don niqab I would actually advise her against it, because here it has the opposite effect of its intent and brings you attention. I have only worn my niqab once in the UK (basically to find out what reaction I would get). I walked down Edgeware Road in London (a predominantly Arab area) and got WAY too much attention, I was made to feel like I was walking around naked because of the looks and comments I was attracting.

But there is a flip side to this. I was brought up in the West, I can easily adapt to Western life and freedoms when I come here and return to conversative life when I return to Egypt but women born into certain cultures would find that too difficult.

Of course the ideal is middle ground, it is perfectly possible to remain modestly dressed, wearing hijab and not draw a lot of attention or criticism but some women coming to our country have never been seen outside their home without their niqab. They would feel naked if they remove it ... hell I now feel naked if I wear a strappy summer dress where only my parents can see me so I can only imagine how these women would feel.

This is why I object to any ban, if these few women (in Belgium it is estimated that out of a Muslim community of 250,000 only about 40 women wear niqab) feel they cannot go outside without thier niqab then I back their right to wear it. Not for politics, not for Muslim fanaticism but for the women themselves. I also object to young women in UK donning niqab as a political statement because they are doing a great dis-service to their sisters who feel a deep need to wear niqab and will actually deepen the social isolation these women experience.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW,

You said,

"… there is so much in your post I can agree with and believe could lead to understanding of each others stance, even if we don't support those views."

--> I call this agreeing to disagree, which is vital in any relationship. I live in China, and ALL Chinese college students download free pirated music and movies. (You can get just about any English song and movie off of Chinese websites for free.) I say it is stealing, and my students do not. I teach them that we can (and we have to) agree to disagree on this. (It is a difficult lesson for my students to learn.)

I want to give three hypothetical jealousy situations.

Justifiable jealousy

Let’s say I had a wife and I found out she was sleeping with every guy in town. Would I get jealous? Yes. Would my jealousy be justified? To me, yes, it would.

Unjustifiable jealousy

Let’s say I had a wife, we were walking down the road, a stranger walked up to her and asked her for the time of day, she told him, and I got jealous. (Believe me, this happens to a lot of people.) Would my jealousy be justified? No.

"Can’t decide" jealousy

There are many examples that fit in between justifiable and unjustifiable jealousy. A woman gets a birthday present from a male co-worker. A man has lunch with a female co-worker. Some spouses are okay with these things while other spouses are not.

~~~

Couples need to sit down and decide and agree which things fit into which group. The speedo example is a good example, because different people think it falls into different groups of jealousy. In the hypothetical situation, my wife feels it is justified while I feel it is unjustified. The suggestion here is that I just give in and stop just because she gets jealous — I feel this is a real bad idea (and spouses do it all the time).

"What if she didn't feel so and insisted it made her uncomfortable watching women watch your lunch box swaying as you walk down the beach?"

--> First, we would sit down and decide if it was justifiable or unjustifiable jealousy. If we both felt it was justifiable, then I would have to find some way to deal with it (not easy to do). If we both felt it was unjustifiable, then I would be loving and nurturing as I helped her to deal with it, and I would not stop wearing the speedos.

But let’s be honest, a lot of men would just stop wearing the speedos in order to keep the peace.

"you said you would work it out with her but your answer entailed her accepting she was unreasonably jealous…"

--> If the two people cannot agree on what is unreasonable jealousy, then their relationship is in serious trouble. Would you agree?

"…you wouldn't alter your behaviour because you would be supportive until she came around to your way of thinking…"

--> Correct, assuming she agreed with me that it is unjustified jealousy.

"So how is that different to a Muslim man or woman "supporting" their spouse until they come around to their way of thinking?"

--> It all comes down to whether the two people can agree on what is unjustified jealousy.

"Is it her insecurities or do they simply recognise the dangers of offering too much freedom to one's spouse?"

--> I say it is her insecurities, but you bring up a fascinating question. They would absolutely have to be on the same page as to what is too much freedom and what is not. Once again, if a couple cannot agree on this, the relationship is in serious trouble

Jealousy is one of the most complicated issues in a relationship. We have only scratched the surface on jealousy. But first, couples must sit down and talk about all these issues (which is something that many couples never do). In addition, unjustifiable jealousy is only a symptom of the deeper problem of being insecure and not having self-confidence. First we must learn how to handle the issue of insecurity and a lack of self-confidence, THEN we should tackle the issue of unjustifiable jealousy, not the other way around.

"…of the Muslims I have met, nobody has such issues with bringing up the subject of jealousy as we do in the West."’

--> I am glad to hear that Muslims do not have this barrier to communication.

"My husbands neice is in Uni in Cairo. She chose to wear niqab at 15, against her fathers wishes. There was no jealousy and no man controlling her. Her mother didn't wear niqab, she has no sisters and none of her friends wore it. She was actually refused entry to her school because niqab was not worn there. Clearly in this example it was a clear choice that she herself made and not driven by jealousy or male influence. So why would it be assumed that she is the odd woman out and everyone else in niqab is driven by male jealousy?"

--> This is a good example of wearing a niqab not because of jealousy, ‘psychological damage,’ etc. We must keep the different motivations for wearing a niqab in mind at all times.

[webcam sex] "…requires…participation…yet it seems to be becoming more acceptable."

--> This is really a case where the wife/girlfriend has to say it is unacceptable to her. Another point that must be made is that she makes the final decision as to what justifiable and unjustifiable, acceptable or unacceptable. If that is how she really feels, then she has to stick to her guns and tell him.

"… if I was cooking and hubby came home with friends he would simply inform me people were there and pass me my niqab, so I didn't get embarrassed and walk out with my hair flowing."

--> I am glad you are willing to live under such conditions, I am not. I am also amazed that you would feel a sense of embarrassment in such a situation. Such a thought would have never crossed my mind.

"If they stayed to eat I would eat alone in the bedroom or office."

--> That would be acceptable to me if I found their company boring or offensive.

"…I find it respectful…"

--> That is the value of this Forum, we can see how different people react in different situations, and learn to understand why they act that way. I can now better understand why you act this way, and I appreciate your sharing this with all of us.

"In Egypt if I came home with women friends yes my hubby would stop what he was doing and go into another room…"

--> I feel it all comes down to why he left the room. We must admit that when a group of women get together and start talking, some men find the ‘girly’ conversation boring. And vice versa. In such a case, it only makes sense for the man to go do something else. But to have a rule that he must leave the room strikes me as strange.

 

[Muslimwoman]

"Can’t decide" jealousy

There are many examples that fit in between justifiable and unjustifiable jealousy. A woman gets a birthday present from a male co-worker. A man has lunch with a female co-worker. Some spouses are okay with these things while other spouses are not.

The same can be said in Muslim society, not everyone has the same degree of jealousy or possessiveness but Islam aims to nip it in the bud. If it becomes acceptable for my husband to have lunch with a female co-worker then where can this lead? Perhaps they have a business lunch to discuss a new project, because we all have to eat right ... then another lunch to discuss the outcome of a sales drive ... then just a lunch because they can talk business in a relaxed enviroment .... then just lunch because they enjoy each others company and they both have to eat right ... and down the slippery slope they go.

We know this happens in Western society, many people meet their partners at work and many divorces have resulted from that initial business lunch with a co-worker.

The suggestion here is that I just give in and stop just because she gets jealous — I feel this is a real bad idea (and spouses do it all the time).

Indeed it is a slippery slope and we can see now in Western society men tend to bend over backwards these days just to keep the peace ... whereas in Arab societies the women are still doing the bending over backwards to keep the peace. Ideally both partners would bend a little because I feel it is very rare that any two married people are on the same page on every issue.

--> First, we would sit down and decide if it was justifiable or unjustifiable jealousy. If we both felt it was justifiable, then I would have to find some way to deal with it (not easy to do).

so in this situation would you stop wearing the speedo's?

--> If the two people cannot agree on what is unreasonable jealousy, then their relationship is in serious trouble. Would you agree?

Gosh no, I believe all relationships involve a degree of compromise or agreeing to disagree on certain issues. I'll give an example .. my hubby is now in the UK with me for some time and he is working very hard to swallow some of his cultural conditioning but before we came here we both drew red lines in the sand ... these were not to be crossed. Some I agreed with and a couple I felt were going overboard but I recognise that they are no go areas for him. Anything beyond these red lines we have compromised on, we both bend to make the other happy and keep harmony in our marriage. To not do this would simply be controlling, insisting your own ideals are more important than your partners and therefore more valid.

First we must learn how to handle the issue of insecurity and a lack of self-confidence, THEN we should tackle the issue of unjustifiable jealousy, not the other way around.

Can we take this one step further. One topic on my dating blog that caused a furore was the question of porn in a relationship. A repeated point of the "porn is no problem" supporters was that to object to porn is an identification of the objectors insecurities and demonstrates a lack of self confidence. However people also posted about the downfall of their marriage, how it started with their partner wanting to emulate what they had seen in porn .. sometimes to a degrading degree. Their partners would buy them "gifts" of items or clothing they had seen in porn. Eventually it would lead to their partners avoiding their bed and prefering their computer screen and porn to the "real thing". So if your wife objects to youlooking at the topless model in the newspaper every day why does that have to be her insecurity and lack of self confidence ... why can't it simply be her recognition of where this could ultimately lead?

I am also amazed that you would feel a sense of embarrassment in such a situation. Such a thought would have never crossed my mind.

The embarrassment doesn't come from my hair being seen accidently, it is about breaking social norms. Rather like if you went into a Japanese home and forgot to take off your shoes ... I would be very embarrassed then too. I remember when my hubby's best friend called round without phoning first. He came to knock on the flat door and it was open because I was cleaning, I wasn't wearing niqab or even hijab .... he saw me for about a second and almost fell down the concrete stairs to get away. He was mortified because he respects my husband and had intruded, albeit accidently, on my husbands private life. He was embarrassed to visit us for some weeks after that and kept sending his apologies to me and now always phones from the street before coming up to knock. It's about respecting boundaries and embarrassment when you cross those boundaries ... yes strange to western culture but I am sure you would be embarrassed if you visited a friends house and accidently saw his wife undressed?

--> But to have a rule that he must leave the room strikes me as strange.

I understand why it seems strange and highly restrictive but I also understand why it's there. The curtailing of the free mixing of the sexes simply stops the first step on a slippery slope. Is there really any harm in me sitting with my hubby and his friends, it's not like I'm going to be overtaken by lust because a strange man is in the room .. so this can seem like a silly rule. But what if one of his friends is interesting, I enjoy talking to him and find we have similar minds? What if I go to bed that night and think about this man, how he shares my interest in history, whereas my husband doesn't. The next time he visits I talk more to him than the other friends, because we share this interest ... I am still doing nothing wrong, it's just someone I like talking to. What if he drops by one day when hubby is not in, he has now become my friend as well as my hubby's so it would surely be rude not to invite him in.

Islamic life is often portrayed as a bunch of sex mad beasts who can't stop their urges for a single second. This is far from the truth and Islamic life simply prohibits any step onto a slippery slope ... another example would be alcohol. Most people can have a glass of wine without having to drink the whole bottle, get drunk and throw up or dance on the table topless but by nipping it in the bud and banning any alcohol there is simply no chance that anyone could find their weaknesses exploited.

There is even prohibition against nagging (hee hee), the Prophet said a nagging wife is like water endlessly dripping (think Chinese water torture lol). So yes some of these rules seem excessive when looked at from outside but they are designed as checks and balances to keep social order.

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

Nick, that's a nice clear statement of how you deal with this type of issue.

As an alternative, here's my way. I've been married 34 years and I'm more in love with each day that passes. As a couple we've had some blistering rows, but got over them, not by establishing who was justified and who wasn't, but by one or both of us generously acceding to the other out of respect for their feelings. The reason for the disagreement will be forgotten but the love remains.

I'm a little concerned that you are prepared to move to the "rationship in serious trouble" position so readily. It sounds like a hard rule to follow where you have to justify yourself or leave. But perhaps that's not what you meant.

-cliff

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Cliff,

I firmly believe that jealousy is not caused by differences in culture, values, upbringing, etc., it is caused by a person’s insecurities. Many people just give in, when I think that what they need to do is look deeply into each other’s unfulfilled emotional needs, find the real causes of any unreasonable emotional needs, and keep digging until they get to the root of the problem.

If she gets a birthday present from a guy at work and he gets jealous, the two of them are either going to work it out or they are not. We need ways to work this out, and my way is the best I have come up with yet. Are you saying that when he gets jealous, that’s just tough, and he just has to live with it?

"The reason for the disagreement will be forgotten but the love remains."

--> Or resentment builds and builds as the years go by. I think we have to have strategies for both possibilities.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW, you said,

"…many people meet their partners at work and many divorces have resulted from that initial business lunch with a co-worker."

à The question, then, is how many of those divorces happened because people were bored, and how many happened because the person needed to get out of a loveless divorce? Many people say that people should stay in a marriage, no matter how cold and loveless it has become. Do you agree?

"…in Western society men tend to bend over backwards these days just to keep the peace ... whereas in Arab societies the women are still doing the bending over backwards to keep the peace. Ideally both partners would bend a little because I feel it is very rare that any two married people are on the same page on every issue."

à That is a fascinating observation, and I totally agree. I fully advocate both people taking more charge of what is happening (and not happening) in a marriage. The more ‘back-bending’ we discover, the more we can deal with it. I would like to give a very male chauvinistic example. In my biased opinion, American men are expected to show more affection to women on Valentine’s Day than women are expected to show to men. I feel this is unfair.

"If we both felt it was justifiable, then I would have to find some way to deal with it (not easy to do)." à "so in this situation would you stop wearing the speedo's?"

à If I felt it was justifiable, yes, of course.

"…before we came here we both drew red lines in the sand ... these were not to be crossed."

à For example?

"Some I agreed with and a couple I felt were going overboard but I recognise that they are no go areas for him. Anything beyond these red lines we have compromised on, we both bend to make the other happy and keep harmony in our marriage. To not do this would simply be controlling, insisting your own ideals are more important than your partners and therefore more valid."

à I guess this is the gauge by which we measure the real strength of a marriage. How much are we willing to give in against our principles in order to ‘keep peace’? Sadly, I think there are a number of marriages where one person gives in a lot more than the other person.

"One topic on my dating blog that caused a furore was the question of porn in a relationship."

à I see porn as a huge topic that many people bury their heads in the sand over.

"…the "porn is no problem" supporters…."

à I feel that porn can never been seen as ‘no problem.’ Men and women have naturally differing views on porn, these are big issues, and both sides must be fully aware of the other sides’s ideas on this.

"…to object to porn is an identification of the objectors insecurities and demonstrates a lack of self confidence.’

à Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But it is a lot more complicated.

"…their partner wanting to emulate what they had seen in porn .. sometimes to a degrading degree."

à They have to learn to say, "You want to do that? I don’t. It’s good to have a fantasy. Just remember it’s a fantasy."

"Eventually it would lead to their partners avoiding their bed and prefering their computer screen and porn to the "real thing".’

à I have a lot of ideas on this, but discussing such things is beyond the scope of a religious forum, and this is a religious forum.

"So if your wife objects to you looking at the topless model in the newspaper every day why does that have to be her insecurity and lack of self confidence…"

à It is not always. Sometimes it is and sometimes it is not.

"... why can't it simply be her recognition of where this could ultimately lead?"

à It can. But (let me give a man’s perspective) but men look at porno and women object to porno for different reasons. The more the two sides can understand each other. But once again, we are going beyond the scope of a religious forum.

"The embarrassment doesn't come from my hair being seen accidently, it is about breaking social norms."

à I was thinking about how this is a cultural discussion, not a religious one. I live in China, and I recently attended my student’s birthday. I was shocked to see that it is a Chinese tradition to smear birthday cake frosting on everyone’s face. Let me tell you, I did NOT enjoy sitting there while someone smeared frosting on my face.

"Rather like if you went into a Japanese home and forgot to take off your shoes ... I would be very embarrassed then too."

à (I used to live in Japan, and I have done that very thing.) But many, many times I was asked to do Japanese things, I refused, they asked why, and I said it is because I am an American. I have no problem taking off my shoes in a Japanese house. I do have a problem being forced to drink alcohol. (It is a huge ‘sin’ to refuse an alcoholic drink in Japan.) If I refuse and they get offended, too bad.

"…I am sure you would be embarrassed if you visited a friends house and accidently saw his wife undressed?"

à Yes, I would. But there is also what I call "transcending cultural differences." Quite frankly, most people cannot transcend cultural differences. I presently live in China, and I often encounter people who cannot transcend cultural differences, and they expect (sometimes demand) me to act Chinese. It is a tightrope act I have to perform often.

"But to have a rule that he must leave the room strikes me as strange." à "I understand why it seems strange and highly restrictive but I also understand why it's there. The curtailing of the free mixing of the sexes simply stops the first step on a slippery slope."

à Here, then, is the key. Let’s say I visit your husband at your house and you stop whatever you are doing and go into the bedroom. The next day, you come to visit my wife and I do NOT stop whatever I’m doing, and I sit there and talk with the two of you. Can you deal with such a duality? (Would you refuse to sit at the same table with my wife and I? Would you refuse to visit our home, knowing that such a thing might happen?)

"But what if one of his friends is interesting, I enjoy talking to him and find we have similar minds? What if I go to bed that night and think about this man, how he shares my interest in history, whereas my husband doesn't. The next time he visits I talk more to him than the other friends, because we share this interest ... I am still doing nothing wrong, it's just someone I like talking to."

à The first rule is that you let your husband know exactly what is going on. If he has any reservations about this, it is time to sit down and talk about it. The second rule is that you must be completely honest with your husband about your feelings for this other guy. (You can’t just say, "Oh, he’s just a friend," you have to be a LOT more specific about your feelings about him, and I have a list that I use for this.)

"What if he drops by one day when hubby is not in, he has now become my friend as well as my hubby's so it would surely be rude not to invite him in."

à How does your (theoretical) husband feel about this? If he feels jealous, then you need to tell your new male friend to come back when hubby is home. (Even Ann Landers says it is polite to refuse to let in an unannounced guest at the front door.) One of the first things that two people must do is find out if either person is the jealous type. (Yes, they have to come out and ask them!) The rules must change when neither, one, or both ot htem are the jealous type (and most people are unwilling to accept such an idea).

Here is a real example. For goodness sakes, you and I (a man) have discussed porn and the theoretical aspects of webcam sex. Does Islam allow you to do this?
　

 

[Muslimwoman]

The question, then, is how many of those divorces happened because people were bored, and how many happened because the person needed to get out of a loveless divorce? Many people say that people should stay in a marriage, no matter how cold and loveless it has become. Do you agree?

No I do not agree. I think in the west we now leave marriages far too quickly, rather than work on them but there comes a time in certain marriages where divorce is the only suitable option left.

Ineed some will be bored or seeking the buzz of love but I have also witnessed people at work in very happy marriages going astray. The problem is human chemistry does exist (sometimes between most unexpected people) and yes we can choose to ignore it but we are also human and therefore can be weak. The damage this can do to a marriage, children and family units is impossible to put into words. So why don't we work to avoid such situations?

I would like to give a very male chauvinistic example. In my biased opinion, American men are expected to show more affection to women on Valentine’s Day than women are expected to show to men. I feel this is unfair.

Even as a woman I can give so many examples of how the tables have been turned on men in the West. To me men appear to now be between a rock and a hard place, if they open a door for you they are a sexist pig and you are quite capable of opening your own door but if they don't they are rude and don't respect women.

If I felt it was justifiable, yes, of course.

But your wife believes it is justifiable, even if you do not accept that. It is such a small issue, what is wrong with accepting her point of view on the subject, even if you don't agree?

I feel that porn can never been seen as ‘no problem.’ Men and women have naturally differing views on porn, these are big issues, and both sides must be fully aware of the other sides’s ideas on this.

but therein lies the problem, I very much doubt that anyone starts watching it with the intention of it becoming an addiction or of it affecting their relationship but this is often the end result.

They have to learn to say, "You want to do that? I don’t. It’s good to have a fantasy. Just remember it’s a fantasy."

Again I agree but this leads to another problem. The partner who wishes to emulate what they see begins to feel unsatisfied with what their partner is willing to do/try.

I was thinking about how this is a cultural discussion, not a religious one.

Yes sorry I agree but it's difficult to discuss Islam without discussing culture/society as Islam sets boundaries for every aspect of our lives.

I did NOT enjoy sitting there while someone smeared frosting on my face.

Why not? Yes it's strange and perhaps felt a little insulting according to our cultures norms but you are an intelligent person, you can see they were trying to include you in their life ... I would see it as a compliment and get into the spirit of things.

I do have a problem being forced to drink alcohol. (It is a huge ‘sin’ to refuse an alcoholic drink in Japan.) If I refuse and they get offended, too bad.

but did you explain that it's outside your cultural boundaries and if so did they accept that or did some get insulted?

I presently live in China, and I often encounter people who cannot transcend cultural differences, and they expect (sometimes demand) me to act Chinese. It is a tightrope act I have to perform often.

Interesting, this really speaks to the discussions we are having on the forum about niqab wearing and the demands of westerners that immigrants to this country MUST act "British". As we have both lived in other cultures, I think we both see how difficult this can be when something goes so totally against the norm for your culture.

Here, then, is the key. Let’s say I visit your husband at your house and you stop whatever you are doing and go into the bedroom. The next day, you come to visit my wife and I do NOT stop whatever I’m doing, and I sit there and talk with the two of you. Can you deal with such a duality? (Would you refuse to sit at the same table with my wife and I? Would you refuse to visit our home, knowing that such a thing might happen?)

Of course I would sit with both of you and if your wife went to make tea I wouldn't run out of the room, although I would offer to help her make tea. However, if your wife just nipped out to get milk from the local shop I would go with her rather than stay alone with you.

The first rule is that you let your husband know exactly what is going on. If he has any reservations about this, it is time to sit down and talk about it. The second rule is that you must be completely honest with your husband about your feelings for this other guy. (You can’t just say, "Oh, he’s just a friend," you have to be a LOT more specific about your feelings about him, and I have a list that I use for this.)

In my opinion what I would have achieved following this format is to cause a potential rift in my marriage and my husbands friendship. My husband now has to go out with this friend and look at him thinking ... hmmm my wife fancies you or at least likes you more than perhaps I am comfortable with. By simply not allowing this situation to arise there is no possibility of causing potential harm to my marriage or husbands friendships ... of course that cuts both ways.

Here is a real example. For goodness sakes, you and I (a man) have discussed porn and the theoretical aspects of webcam sex. Does Islam allow you to do this?

Islam does not hide away from any issues, even sexual. We are discussing this on an open forum on the internet, where nobody can question my motivation for such a conversation. It would be wrong if I stopped using hypotheticals and started getting personal (hence not giving an example of a red line above, these are private issues within my marriage).

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW, you said,

"The problem is human chemistry does exist (sometimes between most unexpected people) and yes we can choose to ignore it but we are also human and therefore can be weak. The damage this can do to a marriage, children and family units is impossible to put into words. So why don't we work to avoid such situations?"

à This is why I am working to become the best marriage counselor I can be.

"It is such a small issue, what is wrong with accepting her point of view on the subject, even if you don't agree?"

à We all have to accept the other person’s view once in a while. It is when one person feels they are doing the lion’s share of the accepting that it becomes a problem. In my opinion, a big problem in marriages is when resentment starts building, especially resentment which people are not aware of. In my opinion, the building of resentment (which people are not even aware of) is a big factor in many divorces.

"They have to learn to say, "You want to do that? I don’t. It’s good to have a fantasy. Just remember it’s a fantasy." à "Again I agree but this leads to another problem. The partner who wishes to emulate what they see begins to feel unsatisfied with what their partner is willing to do/try."

à I have specific ideas on how to deal with this, but they are beyond the scope of a discussion on a religious forum such as this.

"I did NOT enjoy sitting there while someone smeared frosting on my face." à "Why not? Yes it's strange and perhaps felt a little insulting according to our cultures norms but you are an intelligent person, you can see they were trying to include you in their life ... I would see it as a compliment and get into the spirit of things."

à I would use the same logic to say that Muslims should never wear niqabs in England in order to ‘get into the spirit of things.’

"I do have a problem being forced to drink alcohol. (It is a huge ‘sin’ to refuse an alcoholic drink in Japan.) If I refuse and they get offended, too bad." à "but did you explain that it's outside your cultural boundaries and if so did they accept that or did some get insulted?"

à You have to realize that these people have lived their entire life in China, they never been outside of China, and the only frame of reference they have is a Chinese one. (I have to keep reminding myself of this.) They have never encountered someone who refuses to wear frosting, and it is quite a shock to them. The "outside your cultural boundaries" argument does not work on most people in most countries.

"Of course I would sit with both of you and if your wife went to make tea I wouldn't run out of the room, although I would offer to help her make tea. However, if your wife just nipped out to get milk from the local shop I would go with her rather than stay alone with you."

à In your version of Islam, is it okay to sit with men friends and women friends at your dinner table (unlike my Muslim friend?) but you have to wear a niqab?

"Islam does not hide away from any issues, even sexual. We are discussing this on an open forum on the internet, where nobody can question my motivation for such a conversation. It would be wrong if I stopped using hypotheticals and started getting personal (hence not giving an example of a red line above, these are private issues within my marriage)."

à I guess you have to draw the line somewhere. It just strikes me strange that you refuse to let a man see your hair, or sit down with him and discuss the weather, then turn right around and discuss porn with him online (in a theoretical way) 20 minutes later. Also, to me, using hypotheicals can include examples and techniques that are very graphic.

 

[Muslimwoman]

This is why I am working to become the best marriage counselor I can be.

And there is a very important place in the world for marriage guidance councelling ... provided in Muslim society by the family (and in my experience they do not just take the side of their child, they tend to be very fair and share the blame out). However, this only comes into play once a problem has occurred, isn't it better to live in a way that tries to prevent the problem in the first place?

I would use the same logic to say that Muslims should never wear niqabs in England in order to ‘get into the spirit of things.’

And as you have demonstrated, where things are totally alien to your culture, you find it too difficult to get into the spirit of things.

In egypt female circumcision is the norm and yet no matter how I tried to accept the culture around me I felt physically sick whenever this subject arose and I will never accept it as normal. So why should niqabi's visiting our land feel any different to us when we travel? Surely this "you must assimilate" (gosh it sounds like Star Trek and the Borg now) attitude toward niqabi's in the west would require me in Egypt to support FGM or to eat dog in Singapore?

The "outside your cultural boundaries" argument does not work on most people in most countries.

Indeed it does not and most Chinese landing in the UK or America would feel like fish out of water. Now what do we think happens when you take a niqabi out of her own culture and bring her to the "devils playground" (the West) and then insist that she remove some of her clothing to fit in?

In your version of Islam, is it okay to sit with men friends and women friends at your dinner table (unlike my Muslim friend?) but you have to wear a niqab?

First I would have to say that social interaction, in my experience, is largely within the family sphere. I have never seen or heard of people having dinner parties with friends unless its for a special occasion (wedding funeral birth etc). Of course, as in our society, age plays it's part with 20 somethings going out in groups (sometimes all male/female groups and sometimes mixed) to the cinema, eat, etc but after marriage the women I met socialised only within the family.

When my husband brought home close friends and I cooked them a meal hubby always asked me to join them (they are all men) but I find it particularly hard to eat wearing niqab so I always chose to eat in another room (would he do this if I was Egyptian? I honestly can't say). I have been invited to homes to eat with non family members, usually for the novelty factor of having a foreigner visit their home and in some homes men and women eat together and in others they eat seperately .. so I can't give a one size fits all answer.

I am trying very hard to be fair and honest here so I must keep pointing out that my experiences are of one Muslim country and a rural area within that country. I am also often treated differently because I'm a foreigner .. like when we went to the beach and I remove my niqab to swim ... I must look like a total nutter to everyone around but the family accept it is not normal for me so they put up with the funny looks.

I guess you have to draw the line somewhere. It just strikes me strange that you refuse to let a man see your hair, or sit down with him and discuss the weather, then turn right around and discuss porn with him online (in a theoretical way) 20 minutes later.

To see my hair would be a very personal thing but discussing an issue which affects society as a whole is impersonal.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW, you said,

"…marriage guidance councelling ... only comes into play once a problem has occurred, isn't it better to live in a way that tries to prevent the problem in the first place?"

à We must all ‘start preparing for the divorce before the marriage happens.’ There are specific issues that almost guarantee a divorce — and most people are unaware of these issues. The sooner people find out about these issues, the sooner they can stop setting themselves up for failure and divorce. In my humble opinion, most people get into marriages that are doomed to unhappiness — and they don’t even see it coming.

"In your version of Islam, is it okay to sit with men friends and women friends at your dinner table (unlike my Muslim friend?) but you have to wear a niqab?" à "…I can't give a one size fits all answer."

à Yeah, I guess it's hard to eat while you are wearing a veil! I am just trying to keep track of all of the various levels of rules in Islam — a daunting task.

By the way, you are the first Muslim I have had more than just a superficial cultural/religious discussion with. Thank you for the opportunity.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

And most survivors of rape would agree with you but they were not brought up in a society where a woman's honour is considered null and void if she is raped .. unfortunately to some of these women they believe death would be a much better option. I watched a harrowing documentary recently about the rape victims in an African country after the civil war (sorry can't remember which country) and I sat here in tears as husbands refused to take back wives because their honour had been removed. The women were not just poor women in villages, rich women in cities were also gang raped for belonging to the "wrong tribe".

We know of various areas in the world where rape victims are almost expected to take their own lives, as the "honourable thing to do". I will see myself in hell before I ever accept any society viewing women in this way and we should all work to re-educate men on the issue .... but will that be easy when clearly our own men still do not understand it or we wouldn't see the rape stats in our countries so high and some of our troops doing it in wartime?! I was just intrigued as to why this seems to be a phenomenon of war in every culture throughout history.

Yes, I agree with everything you've said.

Chris

 

[Muslimwoman]

We must all ‘start preparing for the divorce before the marriage happens.’ There are specific issues that almost guarantee a divorce — and most people are unaware of these issues. The sooner people find out about these issues, the sooner they can stop setting themselves up for failure and divorce. In my humble opinion, most people get into marriages that are doomed to unhappiness — and they don’t even see it coming.

Hi Nick

but surely what we need to do is prepare for marriage before marriage, rather than preparing for divorce. If we know the issues that can lead to divorce we can avoid them and ensure we do not tread that path, hence protecting and strengthening our marriage. To prepare for divorce before a marriage begins sounds like "destined to fail".

Yeah, I guess it's hard to eat while you are wearing a veil! I am just trying to keep track of all of the various levels of rules in Islam — a daunting task.

Other women manage perfectly well ... it's just me, I end up with more food on my clothes than in my mouth

Aha good luck with keeping track ... I never cease to be amazed at how differently groups of Muslims (particularly from differing cultural backgrounds) view and interpret Islam.

By the way, you are the first Muslim I have had more than just a superficial cultural/religious discussion with. Thank you for the opportunity.

You are more than welcome, dialogue is the way to understanding and it's been enlightening discussing this topic with you. Of course my "version" of Islam is my own to an extent and I have only tried the best I can to explain what I believe others feel or believe .... my apologies to them if I misrepresented them.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

MW,

You said,

"...I end up with more food on my clothes than in my mouth."

--> So you end up with 'more on you than in you.' Ha.

Regarding marriage, yes, preparing for divorce is the same thing as preparing for marriage, it is just a different way of phrasing it. Amazingly, many people set themselves up for divorce before they even get married, and they do not see it coming.

Regarding Islam, What are the main differences between your ideas and mainline ideas on Islam?

I want to ask: What is your opinion of Muslims who wish to leave Islam, and what is the mainline opinion of such people? I have heard that it is a crime to stop being a Muslim.