Is scripture dangerous?

The whole "shammaite" story might make sense, if Eastern Christianity did not exist. It is the West, under Augustine, who embraced the idea of Original Sin as "inherited guilt", and they did so centuries after any Hillel/Shammaite controversy.
 
Virtual_Cliff said:
That really is very interesting. I wonder if you would be kind enough to give your source for this?
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A discussion:

Yahoo! Groups (on Paul)

About Paul's ideology:

FROM JESUS TO PAUL AND TO WARDS CHRISTOLOGY

On Hillel and Shammai:

Hillel and Shammai
http://www.biblesearchers.com/yahshua/beithillel/beitshammai.shtml (this one I haven't read much)
The Seven Rules of Hillel

on Jesus:

Jesus the Jew
TJ: Jesus was a rabbi on the Hillel side

on Pharisees:

Let’s Be Fair to the Pharisees | Messianics For Torah
Shammaite Pharisees
 
What does the Bible tell us to do?



GOD COMMITS OR ORDERS VARIOUS ATROCITIES INCLUDING GENOCIDE AND THE MURDER OF CHILDREN.

I Samuel 15:3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and WOMAN, INFANT, AND SUCKLING, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

Numbers 31:17 "Now therefore kill EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, and kill EVERY WOMAN that hath known man by lying with him."

Numbers 31:18 "But of the WOMEN CHILDREN that have not known a man by lying with him, KEEP ALIVE for yourselves." (GENOCIDE, INFANTICIDE, SEX SLAVES, AND PAEDOPHILIA.)

Isaiah 13:15-16 "Everyone that is found shall be thrust through, and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. THEIR CHILDREN ALSO SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES BEFORE THEIR EYES; their houses shall be spoiled, and their WIVES RAVISHED."

Deuteronomy 2:34 "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the LITTLE ONES, of every city, we left NONE to remain."

Deuteronomy 3:6-7 "and we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves."

Ezekiel 9:5-6 "...Go ye after him through the city, and smite; let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: slay utterly old and young, both maids, and LITTLE CHILDREN, and woman..."

Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed into pieces, and THEIR WOMEN WITH CHILD SHALL BE RIPPED UP."

See infanticide-genocide also in Deut. 20:16-17, Joshua 6:2, Joshua 6:21, Joshua 8:25, and Deut. 12:2-3.

Actually God sends a killer angel to kill the first born in Egypt (human and non-human). The injustice is that each attack on Egypt is excused after God "hardens Pharaoh's heart." He altered Pharaoh's will to resist so that God could inflict more suffering and death, to show his glory. (I.e. showing off.)

God does immoral things. If there is any moral objectivity, the Bible is a book of lies. If infanticide is good because God orders it, then morality is purely arbitrary not absolute. It depends on God's capriciousness, emotional lability, and rational contradiction (i.e. insanity.)

Amergin
 
Can you honestly tell me that reading those horrible Bible verses does not push the mentally unstable into murdering children or becoming a terrorist (Buford Furrow, Eric Rudolph, assassins of doctors, assassination of homosexuals, hunting and killing so-called witches?)

Why is it so hard to show people the dark evil of homicidal insanity fostered by the Bible? My quotes above come from that demonic book.

Amergin
 
Amergin said:
God does immoral things. If there is any moral objectivity, the Bible is a book of lies. If infanticide is good because God orders it, then morality is purely arbitrary not absolute. It depends on God's capriciousness, emotional lability, and rational contradiction (i.e. insanity.)
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I think that such stories about God--which I believe only exist in the OT, not the NT--are due to mankind's (mis)understanding of God. The culture in which the people lived, I'm sure, greatly influenced their view(s) of God. Even today, people tend to make God in their (humankind's) image, rather than the other way around.

Personally, I'm working my way through the OT because I've never read it in full. I must frequently remind myself that the version of God often described in it is nothing like the God described by Jesus' words in the NT. Keeping my mind focused on the NT's description of God as love has allowed me to keep things in perspective.
 
Most of the biblical quotes above come from the time when the Children of Israel had recently emerged from wandering in the desert and had just started to settle in the fertile land. They were a pretty wild bunch at the time.

This probably inspired Richard Adam's work "Shardik" which I recommend. This is not to excuse the general slaughter that occurred, just to put it into context. We can still learn from others' mistakes, we just shouldn't assume that every act done in the name of God was a good one.
 
Amergin said:
Can you honestly tell me that reading those horrible Bible verses does not push the mentally unstable into murdering children or becoming a terrorist (Buford Furrow, Eric Rudolph, assassins of doctors, assassination of homosexuals, hunting and killing so-called witches?)

Why is it so hard to show people the dark evil of homicidal insanity fostered by the Bible? My quotes above come from that demonic book.

Amergin
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I love the book....great reading. Had issues with those words sure, but learned to embrace them.

First we were great for blaming G!d, we've switched now to the devil...the devil made me do it...

Second...any time I read the bible and cannot replace the word G!d with love...I know I need to read beyond the literal and get into the metaphysical... I'll get back to that..
 
Amergin said:
Can you honestly tell me that reading those horrible Bible verses does not push the mentally unstable into murdering children or becoming a terrorist (Buford Furrow, Eric Rudolph, assassins of doctors, assassination of homosexuals, hunting and killing so-called witches?)

Why is it so hard to show people the dark evil of homicidal insanity fostered by the Bible? My quotes above come from that demonic book.

Amergin
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bible states that the laws are written in the heart of every man. The Bible itself is a reinforcement of those laws.

Can't help it if a man decides to ignore the laws written in his heart.

Instead of looking at the Bible as a bad book, consider looking at people as ignoring what is inborn correct...

Life is right or wrong. Relativeism is a manmade concept that means nothing, since nothing matters, and all is subject to individual interpretation/perception.

just a thought.

Q
 
Why is it important what it says in an old book, written while man was intellectually still a savage? Times change, things move on. We've grown up a little, collectively, from the days of Deuteronomy. We're better educated, and less easily fooled. Some people will take a little longer to catch up that the rest of us did. Give it time...
 
Sam Albion said:
Why is it important what it says in an old book, written while man was intellectually still a savage? Times change, things move on. We've grown up a little, collectively, from the days of Deuteronomy. We're better educated, and less easily fooled. Some people will take a little longer to catch up that the rest of us did. Give it time...
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ironic that we will be considered "savage" about 500 years from now, don't you think?
 
Quahom1 said:
Relativeism is a manmade concept that means nothing, since nothing matters, and all is subject to individual interpretation/perception.
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I disagree. From my perspective, absolutism is a man-made concept that leads to divisiveness, bickering and arguments because people can't agree on what should be set in stone. Absolutism is about defining things for everyone and setting everything in stone. It is about being objective. But people fight over what they have defined as absolutes. They fight over what they consider to be objective. They fight over a bunch of stones. Is that faith?

Relativism does not mean nothing. It does not mean that nothing matters. Relativism is where your own experience matters. Your experience, not someone's inflexible and legalistic set-in-stone formula and creed is important. It is your duty and responsibility to reconcile your experience to that of others. Everything in life should be subject to individual interpretation because our humanity is the most important thing, whether that is to us, the world or God. We must strive first to understand what it means to be human. Once we have done that, whatever interpretation we adopt is valid for us. Other Christians will have to accept that this is our way of reliving the journey of Jesus. The New Testament contains plenty of advice and guidelines on how to reconcile our differences.

If relativism means nothing, then a lot of the stuff in the NT also means nothing. Judge not and you will not be judged. Whoever is first will be last in the kingdom of God. Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it. Whoever is willing to lose his life will gain it. Love your neighbour as you love yourself. Whoever does this has obeyed the whole Law. That's very relative isn't it?

If our religion had to be absolute there would be no purpose for faith. The only purpose for absolutism is getting everyone to agree on what it means to be Christian. That would make Christianity monolithic. If you set something in stone then you put your faith in a stone and that sounds very much like idolatry. That wouldn't be real faith would it? Worshipping a stone? Beware of the golden calf! It disturbs you that your Christian neighbour thinks differently to you. But he is still one of us. Have faith in your neighbour and his journey!

Absolutism leads to bickering, fights, schisms and divisiveness. Relativism leads to acceptance and social harmony. It is a path to unity.
 
Saltmeister said:
I disagree. From my perspective, absolutism is a man-made concept that leads to divisiveness, bickering and arguments because people can't agree on what should be set in stone. Absolutism is about defining things for everyone and setting everything in stone. It is about being objective. But people fight over what they have defined as absolutes. They fight over what they consider to be objective. They fight over a bunch of stones. Is that faith?

Relativism does not mean nothing. It does not mean that nothing matters. Relativism is where your own experience matters. Your experience, not someone's inflexible and legalistic set-in-stone formula and creed is important. It is your duty and responsibility to reconcile your experience to that of others. Everything in life should be subject to individual interpretation because our humanity is the most important thing, whether that is to us, the world or God. We must strive first to understand what it means to be human. Once we have done that, whatever interpretation we adopt is valid for us. Other Christians will have to accept that this is our way of reliving the journey of Jesus. The New Testament contains plenty of advice and guidelines on how to reconcile our differences.

If relativism means nothing, then a lot of the stuff in the NT also means nothing. Judge not and you will not be judged. Whoever is first will be last in the kingdom of God. Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it. Whoever is willing to lose his life will gain it. Love your neighbour as you love yourself. Whoever does this has obeyed the whole Law. That's very relative isn't it?

If our religion had to be absolute there would be no purpose for faith. The only purpose for absolutism is getting everyone to agree on what it means to be Christian. That would make Christianity monolithic. If you set something in stone then you put your faith in a stone and that sounds very much like idolatry. That wouldn't be real faith would it? Worshipping a stone? Beware of the golden calf! It disturbs you that your Christian neighbour thinks differently to you. But he is still one of us. Have faith in your neighbour and his journey!

Absolutism leads to bickering, fights, schisms and divisiveness. Relativism leads to acceptance and social harmony. It is a path to unity.
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I think your idea and mine of relativism are different, likewise our two concepts of absolutism.
 
long thread, only read first post...seems most religions work on the fear of hell rather than joy of life angle. but as for encouragement, inspiration...surely thats for the empty follower who needs patting's on the back, keep that to. was gonna say summat else but can't remember, it was a peach too, honest! just bout to post this quote in quote thread so put it here to:

"In oneself lies the whole world and if you know how to look and learn, the door is there and the key is in your hand. Nobody on earth can give you either the key or the door to open, except yourself..." j krishnamurti...

oh yeah...i think it's more important to see your own travesty, rather than invent gratifying ideas of value and self worth...self love being self doubt...seeing the false as the false, the other is...maybe...
 
Sam Albion said:
Why is it important what it says in an old book, written while man was intellectually still a savage? Times change, things move on. We've grown up a little, collectively, from the days of Deuteronomy. We're better educated, and less easily fooled. Some people will take a little longer to catch up that the rest of us did. Give it time...
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Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God stands forever.
 
Saltmeister said:
I would be interested to know where our ideas differ.:)
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You would hmmm? Lol, ok.

Absolutes: The Sky is blue, water is wet, women have their secrets...

Relativism: It's cold, it's hot, something looks nice. No such thing as losing, I'm a genius...:D

Edit: My wife says I'd better engage you in a more serious discussion, or I'm dead meat...lol
 
Gatekeeper said:
I'm tired, and I'm frustrated. I want to believe in the goodness of man, but life nor scripture lends to me that confidence. Maybe I'm reading the wrong parts in scripture. Maybe I missed the parts where it tells us that we aren't that bad. I know it tells us that God so loved the world, but does that mean us, or the planet?
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Maybe it is a sign that we have too much mystery and too little revelation in our midst. We start out with almost nothing except a book and maybe somebody gives us some colored pencils. We take everything in big-eared and dumb-eyed. As Tolkien eloquently writes in Lord of the Rings "Many things that should not have been forgotten were lost."
 
17th Angel said:
..It has been proven many a time over that it can indeed be dangerous even fatal. But, isn't this the same with pretty much anything? It can be used both for good and bad, an object is just an object until we add an individual human element to it, then that object becomes that individuals tool. You cannot blame the tool for the workman's constructions with it.
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I agree; as Shakespeare's character Hamlet says: "...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
 
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