Are we too nice?

Are we too nice?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • No

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .

Virtual_Cliff

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Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett
"Now if I'd seen him, really there, really alive, it'd be in me like a fever. If I thought there was some god who really did care two hoots about people, who watched 'em like a father and cared for 'em like a mother... well, you wouldn't catch me sayin' things like 'There are two sides to every question' and 'We must respect other people's beliefs.' You wouldn't find me just bein' gen'rally nice in the hope that it'd turn out all right in the end, not if that flame was burnin' in me like an unforgivin' sword. And I did say burnin' ... 'cos that's what it'd be. You say that you don't burn folk and sacrifice people any more, but that's what true faith would mean, y'see? Sacrificin' your own life, one day at a time to the flame, declarin' the truth of it, workin' for it, breathin' the soul of it. That's religion. Anythin' else is just... is just bein' nice."
I seem to have dedicated my life to seeing the other person's point of view, and being nice to people. I always thought that was good. And here comes Granny Weatherwax the Discworld witch, telling me I've got it all wrong. The trouble is, I can't read this passage without an inward cheer. Are we all just too nice?
 
You've just gotta love Esme Weatherwax.

Pratchett actually see's the human side of religious faith very well .. have you read Small Gods? It's a thought provoking read, as well as a good laugh.

As to the question are we too nice ... no I don't think so, being nice for nice's sake can lead to a true understanding of faith and a better world.
 
Cliff,

I recently realized that most people are not willing to see things from the other person's point of view. (Would everybody agree?) When you try to do this, you are putting yourself in the top 5% of humanity, so good for you.

This really comes into play when people talk about religion. Many people seem to think that their religion gives them the right to tell other people what to think and do. Obviously, when we preach at someone, we are not trying to see things from the other person's point of view (much less trying to empathize with them). Hopefully, more and more people will take this approach when talking to anyone about anything, especially religion.
 
I seem to have dedicated my life to seeing the other person's point of view, and being nice to people. I always thought that was good. And here comes Granny Weatherwax the Discworld witch, telling me I've got it all wrong. The trouble is, I can't read this passage without an inward cheer. Are we all just too nice?

the question was; Are -we- too nice [to others]? Which you base on your post? That isn't we, that is you, for example I on the other end certainly don't 'dedicate my life to being nice to people.' Most people p me off. I avoid people, and if I have to interact (speaking in the real world here) with them I am of few or no words. So I see a different side to the question. *shrugs *With your dedication to seeing the other persons side, I am sure you understand that. :)

And I think on a whole there are more like me(to a degree) than you. For an example you can look at many ways of the humans life, there are sub classes, rich. Poor. There are nations, flags, borders, armies. If -we- were too nice, and dedicate ourselves to seeing the other persons side and being nice to them. such things would be of no importance.
 
I'm probably asking for trouble for saying this but, just taking part in this forum must mean that its members are interested so some extent in what others think. Even you, 17th.;)

Maybe I should have made the poll "Do I try to see the other point of view?".
Can we be passionate and open-minded at the same time, or are they mutually exclusive? Is it possible to be a liberal fire-brand?
 
I'm probably asking for trouble for saying this but, just taking part in this forum must mean that its members are interested so some extent in what others think. Even you, 17th.;)

Maybe I should have made the poll "Do I try to see the other point of view?".
Can we be passionate and open-minded at the same time, or are they mutually exclusive? Is it possible to be a liberal fire-brand?

*Ponders for a moment with his cup of coffee*

True, it could be said, that members are interested to some degree in what others think, but it could also be seen as members being interested in making others aware of what they think. There are parts I would agree with you yes, I personally have a mild interest in some views here. It also is a tool to help me bide my time while I am at work, but also, this isn't the real world. Here we tend to change. My whole being is much more interactive online than in person.

I will explain, speak, discuss and overall be as nice as possible(I do try sometimes...) and attempt to be approachable, but this is a total contradiction to how I am in person. So, I am not sure.

I was speaking with my niece about this actually now it comes to mind. We were all sat down doing something, I forget it evades me and isn't important. But we got on to discussing 'Youtube' And how no matter what video you go on, there are petty peons bickering amongst one another... And then we were comparing that to the majority of people you meet...

When out of the house it tends to mostly be smiles and manners, and then they get home behind a desk and Dr Jeckle emerges to the surface... I think I'll stick with most of us being two faced rather than nice.

I think your re-phrase of the question is better lol :p

I would like to witness someone who can see another person's side with out engaging their own as you said "passions" and emotions. If it is something you have an opinion on, I would assume it to be quite a task to sit biased.
 
Can we be passionate and open-minded at the same time, or are they mutually exclusive?

That's a really good question VC and I have to confess that the more passionate I feel about a subject the harder I find it to be open minded ... maybe it's just me though?!
 
I don't think we can ever be too nice.

And I don't think it would ever come back to bite us.

If your feet are dirty...I am your doormat.
 
Since the answer is both yes and no, I voted yes to bring the total votes into a 2/2 balance. Whoever votes next will upset that balance.
 
the more passionate I feel about a subject the harder I find it to be open minded ... maybe it's just me though?!

Probably not! Perhaps we need to look at the word "passionate" a little? What does it mean in respect of our opinions on issues? Aren't "passions" those things that get reported as becoming "inflamed" in conflicts?

s.
 
MW, you said,

"the more passionate I feel about a subject the harder I find it to be open minded ... maybe it's just me though?!"

--> I am studying to be a marriage counselor, and I have found this to be an especially important skill that people in relationships must have (and is a skill that most people don't have). More importantly, it is a skill that can be learned. Pick a topic that you are especially passionate about it, and tell your side of the issue to your husband. Then say, "But on the other hand, I can see how…" Try it. Let us know how it turns out for you.
 
aha, so bob and muslimwoman *do* have something in common!

my mum is not entirely unlike granny weatherwax in many respects (mostly the bossing people around, knowing what's best for everyone and refusing to compromise on her visions of right and wrong) - and her two sisters not entirely unlike nanny ogg and magrat garlick.

based on the quote, absolutely - we are *not* too nice and we frankly should try to be nicer. but i think the quote is about well, why is *religion* necessary over and above being nice - and that is where i think sir terry p hits it as usual right on the head. the character she says this to, "the quite reverend" mightily oats, is a sort of wet liberal anglican type who finds fundamentalism disturbing. it seems to me that the trouble with granny weatherwax's view is that it can be interpreted as saying that "real religion" is effectively fundamentalist. with this i disagree, albeit with the proviso that, as my favourite rabbi and teacher says, "it is hard to be passionate about being moderate". if you read what she said carefully, however, you'll see that "real religion" actually means being tough with the *believer*, not on the non-believer. and, with this, i can heartily concur. being jewish is all about holding ourselves to a more exacting standard of conduct, one mitzvah at a time, day by day, week by week, year by year. unfortunately, we don't all understand this and, of course, the same is true of other faiths. the "flame" must be directed internally (this is what muhammad really got in a nutshell when he talked about the "greater jihad" as opposed to the "little jihad") - because when it is directed externally, the "real sin" in granny weatherwax's book is committed - "treating people as things". and, often, inflammable things.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Probably not! Perhaps we need to look at the word "passionate" a little? What does it mean in respect of our opinions on issues? Aren't "passions" those things that get reported as becoming "inflamed" in conflicts?

Salam Snoopy

Where would we be without our passions, life would be so boring.

Pick a topic that you are especially passionate about it, and tell your side of the issue to your husband. Then say, "But on the other hand, I can see how…" Try it. Let us know how it turns out for you.

We have had many such discussions, coming from such different cultures. Some have resulted in opening of minds ... others in not speaking for days on end :D

and her two sisters not entirely unlike nanny ogg

Now there's a woman I'd love to meet, we could sing songs together .. the wizard's staff has a knob on the end!!

it seems to me that the trouble with granny weatherwax's view is that it can be interpreted as saying that "real religion" is effectively fundamentalist.

Hasn't mankind proven over and over again that true faith in the hands of people does lead to fundamentalism?

"it is hard to be passionate about being moderate".

Fantastic quote and so true. It makes me think of all the Muslim forums I have left as quickly as I joined because of the young converts desperate to belong and be passionate for passions sake, leading them to some very fundamentalist thinking. It's sad because as you rightly point out the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) taught us that the greater jihad is within so we should "vie one with another to do good works" but in the current Muslim climate this is not seen as an outward symbol of piousness and therefore not very fashionable. :(
 
Salam Snoopy

Where would we be without our passions, life would be so boring.

Salam mw :)

I'm not advocating a global Stepford :D

I'm passionate about music (to take a non-religious example) but I'm open-minded enough to appreciate that others find it uninteresting or are passionate about music that is quite definitely appalling* :p

It's a strange term if you check a dictionary; it refers to rather disparate things IMO - eg from Merriam Webster: 1. easily aroused to anger, 2. enthusiastic. I like to think I'm (2) sometimes but I hope that I'm not (1).

*eg Abba. hehe...

s.
 
Hasn't mankind proven over and over again that true faith in the hands of people does lead to fundamentalism?

not quite getting this...have you got the hands of another species in mind???:confused::eek:

s.
 
Hasn't mankind proven over and over again that true faith in the hands of people does lead to fundamentalism?
to be precise - it leads THROUGH fundamentalism - and out the other side. you need to learn more about systems thinking. i recommend you taking a look at spiral dynamics - via Spiral Dynamics > Home. the "blue vmeme" is where fundamentalism happens.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Since the answer is both yes and no, I voted yes to bring the total votes into a 2/2 balance. Whoever votes next will upset that balance.
Dream,

I read through a few of the first replies including yours and then clicked "Yes," so I'm the one who upset the balance. If I feel passionately about something, it inevitably means I have accepted or embraced one POV (feminism, for example) and therefore strongly rejected its opposite. So when someone comes along and endorses what I have rejected, or worse yet implies that I should endorse it too or else I'm headed straight for hell, I tend to react rather vehemently.

When it comes to questions like the existence/non-existence of God, I am much more laid back and not dogmatic at all. I know what I believe, but I figure nobody can prove it one way or the other so it's not worth arguing about. So most of the time I go a lot easier on atheists than on biblical literalists.

--Linda
 
Namaste VC,

thank you for the interesting post.

of the choices provided i'd say we human sorts are not nice enough... though i would prefer a term like compassionate.

on the whole, i found that quoted piece rather gloomy and disheartening and, if i may, i'd like to address some of it directly.

Terry Pratchard said:
"Now if I'd seen him, really there, really alive, it'd be in me like a fever. If I thought there was some god who really did care two hoots about people, who watched 'em like a father and cared for 'em like a mother... well, you wouldn't catch me sayin' things like 'There are two sides to every question' and 'We must respect other people's beliefs.'

leaving aside the obvious reality that religious groups have different sects and views, he seems to think that a father or mother treats every child in precisely the same manner rather than in a way which is specific to the individual being. i can assure the author that whilst parent try to treat everyone fairly we do not treat everyone the same, for the patently obvious reason that they aren't the same. the sort of view that he's advocating is a view which is akin to the modern fundamentalist view of various monotheistic religious traditions of the West. he also seems to be of the view that his own personal experience is one which can be extrapolated and applied to others in some meaningful manner of which i'm unaware.

tp said:
You wouldn't find me just bein' gen'rally nice in the hope that it'd turn out all right in the end, not if that flame was burnin' in me like an unforgivin' sword.

i think that this bit is particularly noteworthy... generally the monotheistic deities are portrayed as being forgiving and so his attitude of religious dialog being akin to a flaming broadsword brandished for battle can only lead to an nonconstructive dialog. more tellingly, however, is that he wouldn't just be generally nice... now he predicates this upon a hope of things turning out ok in the end but then i've noted a great many monotheists tend to think of this life as something quite ordinary and not particularly valuable except in advance of their ideology. i am of the view that being nice to other beings has a tangible benefit in the hear and now and doesn't require some sort of post morteum justification or benefit.

tp said:
And I did say burnin' ... 'cos that's what it'd be. You say that you don't burn folk and sacrifice people any more, but that's what true faith would mean, y'see? Sacrificin' your own life, one day at a time to the flame, declarin' the truth of it, workin' for it, breathin' the soul of it. That's religion. Anythin' else is just... is just bein' nice."

and then he proceeds to insinuate that anyone else that doesn't share his fevered vision of how religion should be aren't actually practicing religion rather are engaged in a farce, a mocking of the true calling of devotion and faith which can be the *only* outcome of an encounter with the divine.

with respect to being openminded about ideas and such vis a vie my own views about things... it may be surprising to learn but i am as convinced of the orientation towards reality of my own views as just about everyone else. i hold my views to be those which most approximate the reality we can apprehend yet i am, curiously in the minority it seems, not close minded to ideas which are opposed to mine.

i have the feeling that many, many beings mistake being open minded, knowledgeable and understanding appreciation of another viewpoint implies a tacit accord or acceptance of said view and the corollary to that is the idea that if you don't agree with a view that you don't understand it. such thinking couldn't be more wrongheaded.

metta,

~v
 
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