Selfishness is part of love

c0de said:
It's not a "celestial requirement," it is a transcendent requirement.

So any person who rose to that requirement would no longer be human.

It's simply a matter of definitions.
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Thank you Code........ I agree, and "transcendent' is a far better term.
It is to no longer be swayed by human nature.

- c -
 
Ciel said:
Thank you Code........ I agree, and "transcendent' is a far better term.
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gr8, but its not over yet

>>>

It is to no longer be swayed by human nature.
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okay... but how do you propose we do that?

are you referring to love, giving, caring, charity etc. ??
Because all of this stuff is part of human nature.
AND the motivations behind them are ultimately based in "selfishness"

We all do good because we always get something back.
Either in terms of actual rewards or to avoid a dissonance/displeasure

So how are you, a human, planning to transcend human nature?
 
Mark 12:28-31 (New International Version)
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, Of all the commandments, which is the most important?

The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.
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If we cant love ourselves how can we love anyone else, and whats wrong with that ?
 
NiceCupOfTea said:
If we cant love ourselves how can we love anyone else, and whats wrong with that ?
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Because if we truly love ourselves, we would want to share ourselves with others ... but 'love' too often translates as 'possess', in which we put ourselves before others, then (ab)use others as suits ourselves ...

Thomas
 
is this one of those thread titles thay makes me go 'hey wait a minute, but actually....'

depends on what you ascribe to the word love, if you have to , anything...is being charitable love? if i am at the centre of the giving then obviously not....charity is something we do to cover or live with our lack of love no....people give for themselves, everyone's crap, nobody gives a ****
 
chakraman said:
...charity is something we do to cover or live with our lack of love no....people give for themselves, everyone's crap, nobody gives a ****
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I do like the way some people set themselves up as the standard by which all people are judged.

Thomas
 
well that has to be true doesn't cos the alternative would be unthinkable...
 
The point I was making is everyone sees the world through their own eyes, and, to use the hackneyed phrase, sometimes the glass is half empty, and sometimes half full.

Actually, I think there are countless little acts of love every day, and most of them go unnoticed, and unremarked.

I bet if we took the time to count them all, our cups would overfloweth.

Be that aside, I do not think I am crap, and actually I do give a **** about a lot of things — and, dear friend, I think you do too — I think if you really believed what you wrote, you'd not be bothering to post on these forums!

It is, after all, the stuff that makes the world go round ... and we're still revolvin!

God bless,

Thomas
 
yes we all see the world differently but in actuality, generally speaking it's the same one outside of personal feelings. seeing it differently doesn't change what it is right now, which is a global travesty and i really don't think that's a matter of opinion but an obvious fact without wishing to sound fecetious(?)

i could attempt to be positive about it but i feel that might be a spin on the truth. to me it's more important to be aware of the mess than to imagine things are dandy'ish and that i "really" care, which i do like to think i do but in honesty it can't go that deep. i would prefer not to have a cup at all.

and we have our own personal projection of our ultimate noble selves as god, who is everything we are not; good, compasionate, caring and loving....otherwise we would not "need" "him" as we would be the same...

this is one of my favourites "religious" passages on love:: Freedom From the Known - J. Krishnamurti Online

peace........

jason
 
Krishnamurti lays it on the line, though maybe a little harsh........ the years with the Mahatmas were not kind and he was aware of the exploitation. And in later life he also chose a more human love himself.

There can still be pure love in human emotions, yet truth is truth, to touch the essence is beyond space and time and thought ....... It is when the mind is laid to rest in all silence of existence. And space transforms to grace.

- c -
 
"And ever has it been known that love knows not its own depth until the hour of separation."

- Kahlil Gibran.


​
 
Thomas said:
Because if we truly love ourselves, we would want to share ourselves with others ... but 'love' too often translates as 'possess', in which we put ourselves before others, then (ab)use others as suits ourselves ...

Thomas
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If I understand what you have said correctly, then my experience shows this to be true. Charity, generosity and kindness to others is supposed to be selfish. It is where your journey in life intersects with someone else's journey. At that instant in time, you either see yourself in that other person or imagine yourself in that other person and see a need to "give to yourself" so to speak.

A lot of people give out of expectations and obligations. They give because people tell them that "giving is good" but they have never figured out for themselves why giving is good for them. They do not have their own reason to give. Maybe it is their church that tells them giving is good. Maybe it is to impress a beautiful woman. Once the giving has served its purpose, either because that beautiful woman thinks you're a good guy and has fallen in love with you or people think you're a good Christian, there is no longer a reason to give. The people who are honest about their real motives are the true givers and lovers of this world. The ones who cover up their real motives are the ones who lie to themselves (as well as to us).

The latter are superficial and phony. They don't have their own reason to give. They only give to create a false, outward image of goodness. They want others to think they are "good people."

I would prefer to be the opposite. I would prefer that people thought I was a "rotten b-st-rd (pardon me), an evil, selfish "prick" and to do good when nobody expects it. True givers are selfish and give straight from the heart. They don't do it to please anyone but themselves. They are doing it for themselves, they know it and don't deny it.

What else can I say? The phony/false givers of this are the ones who work so hard at pleasing others that eventually they get tired of it and probably become angry and resentful. They put so much energy into impressing and pleasing others that they never really loved themselves enough. They weren't true givers because they were never selfish enough. They never truly cared about themselves because if they did, they wouldn't be doing so much "good."

It's like the sub-prime mortgage crisis. It's a bubble in danger of bursting. There was always more goodness coming from these people than they could ever sustain. Giving away what you don't need or want is the proper way to give. Everybody's needs should be met including your own. If you give away what you need you are destroying yourself. You are also a liar.

This is the problem with being too good too long. You have to love yourself before you can love others. You have to be bad first before you know what it means to be truly good.

I'm a very naughty boy. What did I just write?:D
 
Ciel said:
to touch the essence is beyond space and time and thought
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This is a point of your faith, not reason.

On this thread, you engaged me with the following words:

"Therefore I confirm selfishness is no part of love in the higher aspect." Post # 17

All I wanted to show you is that you haven't "confirmed" anything, and can not. You are free to hold whatever belief you want... just know that it makes no sense what-so-frekkin-ever (just like my beliefs, which stand opposed to yours).
 
p.s.


i kinda quoted you haphazardly and your words can be taken out of context.

sorry about that

here's your paragraph:

There can still be pure love in human emotions, yet truth is truth, to touch the essence is beyond space and time and thought ....... It is when the mind is laid to rest in all silence of existence. And space transforms to grace.
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Point being >>>-------------> "touching the essence" is not for human beings

there is no rational way to "confirm" such a belief
 
I find it interesting to argue about selfless love from a rational POV. It's inconceivable to the rational mind that someone would ever be selfless, isn't it? Rationally speaking, why on earth would people give more than they got unless there was something in it for them?

And yet, beyond reason, I think many of us have met people who do just that. We meet people who take care of us, sometimes to their own detriment, without regard for their own needs and without an agenda. They're called bodhisattvas in Buddhism...
 
And yet, beyond reason, I think many of us have met people who do just that. We meet people who take care of us, sometimes to their own detriment, without regard for their own needs and without an agenda. They're called bodhisattvas in Buddhism...
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By extension, my rationalisation is:

Jesus Christ was doing Phase I of bodhisattva work, namely:
"Get them to understand, I AM NOT THSI BODY-I AM SPIRIT SOUL"

................................................
Also, that ALL postumate winners of a nation's equivilence of a "Purple Heart" are made immediate candidates for a nation's national pastimes, ie.[from varying degrees of exclusivity]: Sports, Celebrity, Bon vivants, and, even professorships.

IOW:
KIA Wars heros [due to the karma due them for their selfless service] inherit first dibs on future births, in their own nation, that they sacrificed themselves for ---ie: a great general who is KIA comes back to be born in thee rare 'birth' that allows them to live a life of luxury and ease ---without want of anything & exuding natural talents ---think: Life Long Golf Masters such as Tiger Woods et al.

Of course the rules of "Karma" inregards to future births is the same for all creatures that are born ---But here, I speak of the High-eschelon of True Civic Servantry.
 
bhaktajan said:
BTW, you may not be aware that I am an orthodox conservative Hindu.

I am a Hare Krishna Chanting Yoga practitioner ---for whom the Cow is sacred, The cows' dung & urine has medicinal properties, the cow is the living embodiment of mother nature & the agrarian eco-system.

I assume you are a vegetarian, and thus, abhor the idea of eating farm animals' flesh; and thus an adherent of the rules/laws of "ahimsa" [non-violence]? If so, then I understand your post. If not, you are inspired by self-interests only.
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Light...lighten...enlightenment...
 
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Selfishness is part of (self-)love only....
Real love takes no prisoners... a fire that burns away the veils, the rational and all the debris of self you carefully placed in the way...
In the end you will sacrifice all for the taste of that all-consuming flame and with no thought of reward...
'the fire of divine love is in such fashion kindled in their hearts that, were they all to be hewn in pieces, they would not forswear the love of the Beloved'
 
hi, l've missed you all. been kinda selfish [and hated myself for it]..but its reasonable to say, in essence, that l really do LOVE YOU ALL
xxx
 
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