Sufism has been a part of Sunnism for a long time (according to some, since ever). Sufism is the name given to esoteric teachings of Islam, Sunniism is the consensus-exoteric, while Shiism is messianic-exoteric version. Sufi and Sunni teachings arnt mutually exclusive. So apart from Saudi Arabia, which is right now ruled by Uber-purutarian Salafis, and some secular-modernists who consider all religion opium for people, Sufism is alive and kicking everywhere. Since salafis and modernists are both much more vocal than commoners, they get undue airtime in media and space in academia.
L
Lunitik
Guest
Well no, the Quran distinctly states that it should not be translated - although my inference from this is absolutely my own.
Also, there is proof the Quran has also been tampered with, there is a pattern within the Quran that has been broken due to editing in many places. This was revealed to be so in the 1840's and proven with the advent of computers - many Muslims even proclaim this a miracle, and yet deny it shows tampering where the miracle is flawed.
The Bab of the Baha'i Faith has stated this, and to drive it home has changed the Calendar of his faith to 19 months of 19 days and even 19 year cycles. I am not a Baha'i any more than I am a Christian or Sufi, but all religious texts have been changed down the years to foster its leaders intentions. Certainly, for instance, history shows that taxes were hiked up by the Ummaya - who is the group I discussed who took over the Caliphate despite fighting Muhammad during his life.
Islam is even more troublesome because here there are extra texts which are not even part of the book and which contradict and are still supposed to be followed - none of it can truly be verified as fact, it is all taken on faith. The only possibility for truth is to go deeply into it spiritually, but too many are identified with a religion mentally and never experience what it has pointed at... you give an example of this when you predict what has happened after life to Christians.
L
Lunitik
Guest
I like seeing this from a Muslim, I often see them putting down Sufi's for petty things like whether you have prayed 5 times a day - even though it is something of true prayer they are looking at.
I am surprised you say that Sufism is prevalent in Muslim countries though, since through history many have been killed. Sufism is truly beautiful in every way, and the sole reason I love Muhammad - I really wish more Muslims understood the ways of the heart. This is the sole focus of this group, and I have loved many of them as well.
T
True Gabriel
Guest
Arabic is the language of Mohammed, Mohammed's original manuscripts written down before he died was all destroyed when sometime in 650 AD Uthman issue an edict to have all written Quranic scripts destroyed and anyone found in possession will be executed. He then assign his own scribes to write down and complie a new Quran under his vision and approval not Mohammed's. But most of all with Islamic abrogation rule so many verses have already been change; abrogation is tantamount to corruption. The latest discovery of an old Quranic text was in 1972 in Yemen when a carpenter found a scroll of text hidden at the old Mosque ceiling. Muslim authorities have restricted access for examination of those texts from secular and religious scientist up to now one one really knows the contents of those ancient Quranic text.
The 600 years gap before Islam was founded has resulted with Islam being contaminated with local traditions that is why Mohammed has included jinns or genies in Islam.
The Bible have a continuous unbroken history its' text have gone through extensive examination and validation the most recent discovery that validate the Bible is the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Jesus Christ speak Aramaic, Latin and possibly Greek, his Apostles Peter, Matthew and John wrote their gospels not in Aramaic.
thats not correct radarmark for sufism is part of sunni Islam and it is accepted by literally all sunni Scholars; it's only the modern day Salafi's that oppose it and regard it as an invalid innovation, but Salafi's have strayed somwhat from the orignal sunni path
sufism is considered to be a very important and integral part of sunni-Islam for it is to do with purification of the heart and this aspect is the core of all Islamic practices
The grevious penalty comes after death Lunitik, but this dont refer to all Christians; only those who have knowingly distorted the scriptures and those who adhere to it knowing that the truth is that Jesus [pbuh] was only a human Messenger of God and not God nor son of God:
Those who say God is the Messiah, Son of Mary, have certainly blasphemed: whereas the Messiah said, “Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” For whoever associates anyone with God, God has forbidden the Garden; his place is the Fire. And there is no savior for those who do wrong. Those who say God is one third of a trinity have certainly blasphemed, for there is no deity but one God. So if they do not stop what they are saying, a painful penalty will strike those of them who blaspheme (kafar‰). (5:72–73)
There are a few important points that should be made: first of all, the disbelief referred to is not disbelief in Islam but disbelief in their own religion. That is, those who originally said that God is a trinity blasphemed. The past tense is used in these verses, and this is strengthened a few verses later when the Qur’an says, O people of the scripture, do not overdo your religion unrealistically, yet do not follow the desires of people who already went astray before, who misled many and strayed from the balanced way (5:77).
Those who initially innovated the trinity, which was a pagan belief found in ancient Egypt, Babylon, and India, were the ones who blasphemed against God and entered into a state of kufr (unbelief). However, the Qur’an is saying that once one knows this, one must desist from saying such things or be burnt by the Hellfire.
In the last portion of the verse cited above, the usage of the preposition min (from) is a particularly noteworthy construct: So if they do not stop what they are saying, a painful penalty will strike those of them who blaspheme. In the Arabic, using min to say “of those who blaspheme” indicates that it is those who are in a state of kufr from among them who will be burnt by the Fire. This implies that not all of them are in a state of kufr. This can only be understood when we remember what kufr is according to the theologians:
A refusal to believe based upon a knowledge of what to believe (ma¢rifah) and a purposeful refusal to do so (i¢r¥\ah), even if it is concerning only a portion of what the Prophet s conveyed to us, [as long as it is] transmitted in a clear manner, lacking ambiguity.28
This does not negate the legal status of those who believe in the trinity as k¥fir‰n, but rather suspends judgment on their intention since many of them may be unaware that they are in a state of blasphemy. In all three Abrahamic faiths, blasphemy— which is irreverent talk concerning God, His prophets, and other sacred matters—is considered anathema only if done intentionally. There’s the rub. If Christians are simply repeating what they were told by their priests and church institutions, they are not blaspheming intentionally. Many may be deeply devoted to their faith and actively seeking the grace of God. These are the very people whom the Qur’an is addressing, as much of the Qur’an is addressed to peoples of other faiths as well as people without faith in the hopes that they will believe.
http://www.mujahideenryder.net/pdf/WhoAretheDisbelievers.pdf
Christianity is indeed prospering, for in the Quran it says that which there is benifit in, lasts in the earth; Christianity and all other religions lasting a long time shows there is benifit in those religions, however as only Islam is the complete truth, this is why Islam will outlast all the rest
we have in the end of times sign that Christianity and all other religions other than Islam will soon end
did you know that the Quran and prayers have to be recited and done in Arabic in Islam?; thus the 1.82 billion Muslims consisting of all nationality and races [infact the Arab Muslims are a minority] have embraced arabic for the last 14 hundred years
the perrenialists and human deifiers do tend to refer to sufism to support their claims, but they do distort sufi teachings and resort to tricking people with the 'mysticism' aspect of it; the mysticism aspect is merely the revealing of ethereal realities on the path to one attaining excellence of faith, and not some hidden teachings that say man is God or all religions are the same
here is a article about sufism that explains the two types of sufi's; the real one's and the fakes:
... The last question we will deal with tonight is: What about the bad Sufis we read about, who contravene the teachings of Islam?
The answer is that there are two meanings of Sufi: the first is "Anyone who considers himself a Sufi," which is the rule of thumb of orientalist historians of Sufism and popular writers, who would oppose the "Sufis" to the "Ulama." I think the Qur'anic verses and hadiths we have mentioned tonight about the scope and method of true Tasawwuf show why we must insist on the primacy of the definition of a Sufi as "a man of religious learning who applied what he knew, so Allah bequeathed him knowledge of what he did not know."
The very first thing a Sufi, as a man of religious learning knows is that the Shari‘a and ‘Aqida of Islam are above every human being. Whoever does not know this will never be a Sufi, except in the orientalist sense of the word—like someone standing in front of the stock exchange in an expensive suit with a briefcase to convince people he is a stockbroker. A real stockbroker is something else.
The Place of Tasawwuf in Traditional Islam
L
Lunitik
Guest
@Abdullah
Your alternative for me is far worse, no matter how great paradise is, if you have to spent the rest of time there it will eventually become tedious and boring. Playing this game of fear is stupid, it appeals to the mind of the mediocre: you know you must die, but now you are given a new choice... either the embodiment of your fear, hell, or the embodiment of your greed, heaven. It is basically flawed, because what are you protecting? You are protecting your distinctiveness, but it is a fallacy. True love is a merging of the two, if there is a separation it is just a friendly hate.
For Sufism, certainly law is very necessary, for they do not yet understand truth, they are only beginning the path. A Sufi is one who knows the truth, much as Muhammad has known the truth; the only real difference is that Muhammad has been given a job whereas the Sufi might remain utterly unknown because there is nothing more to do for him. Jesus says the same, he says that Moses has given the law, he brings love - and this is the whole work of the Sufi, how to live in love, how to burst in deep love with the whole. When you understand love fully, not the human way of love but divine love, law is no longer necessary - law is a substitute for love, it provides a lubricant for the society that cannot love one another, and yet every law is in some way related to love. The problem is in law there is always punishment, you cannot simply say not to do something because people will ignore you. This is the disgusting part, but it is due to the failure to pour love into all...
If your ego is identified with Muhammads words, you cannot say you are close to God. The Sufis can deliver you into the same realization as Muhammad, but then you must drop the identification. Now your brothers in Islam will try to kill you because they will not understand, and it happened to Muhammad too, those around him wanted to kill him and all his followers - this is the whole reason for the wars he fought. The problem is, only the identification has changed, he has not changed the human mind at all. Muslims today are even more violent than the Arabians that fought with Muhammad, far more dangerous because of the technology available to them. It is hard to understand why there is such anger in the Muslim heart when the entire message is of love...
The Bible contains one of the most important declarations of any scripture on earth: God is love. Love is the very mystery of life, it is the very essence of life. Are you separate from love? The Sufi will simply show that it is impossible, you also are love. Now there is a problem in your words though, you say no man should be related to God, then man must be basically hatred, it is the only conclusion. The Torah goes on saying ALL are the children of God, this is more truthful. Jesus says God lives within and without, he is your center and the nature of everything you see, this is more true and the statement that he is within is why there is meditation. Why go looking in the world if he is here within you?
Muhammad says nothing exists save God, it means the same thing. If you can drop all your identifications, all your concepts and beliefs, everything, then suddenly God comes upon you. No man can be God because when God is there the man has left. Jesus says "I and my father are one", it is not that he is saying he is God, he is saying neither he nor God are something distinct, separate from one another. God is a concept, he has dropped it, but he has also dropped the concept of who he was - this is why he says his mother and brothers are his people, not the biological family outside of the temple.
He has known the reality, I hope you become aware of it before you leave this place too.
Your alternative for me is far worse, no matter how great paradise is, if you have to spent the rest of time there it will eventually become tedious and boring. Playing this game of fear is stupid, it appeals to the mind of the mediocre: you know you must die, but now you are given a new choice... either the embodiment of your fear, hell, or the embodiment of your greed, heaven. It is basically flawed, because what are you protecting? You are protecting your distinctiveness, but it is a fallacy. True love is a merging of the two, if there is a separation it is just a friendly hate.
For Sufism, certainly law is very necessary, for they do not yet understand truth, they are only beginning the path. A Sufi is one who knows the truth, much as Muhammad has known the truth; the only real difference is that Muhammad has been given a job whereas the Sufi might remain utterly unknown because there is nothing more to do for him. Jesus says the same, he says that Moses has given the law, he brings love - and this is the whole work of the Sufi, how to live in love, how to burst in deep love with the whole. When you understand love fully, not the human way of love but divine love, law is no longer necessary - law is a substitute for love, it provides a lubricant for the society that cannot love one another, and yet every law is in some way related to love. The problem is in law there is always punishment, you cannot simply say not to do something because people will ignore you. This is the disgusting part, but it is due to the failure to pour love into all...
If your ego is identified with Muhammads words, you cannot say you are close to God. The Sufis can deliver you into the same realization as Muhammad, but then you must drop the identification. Now your brothers in Islam will try to kill you because they will not understand, and it happened to Muhammad too, those around him wanted to kill him and all his followers - this is the whole reason for the wars he fought. The problem is, only the identification has changed, he has not changed the human mind at all. Muslims today are even more violent than the Arabians that fought with Muhammad, far more dangerous because of the technology available to them. It is hard to understand why there is such anger in the Muslim heart when the entire message is of love...
The Bible contains one of the most important declarations of any scripture on earth: God is love. Love is the very mystery of life, it is the very essence of life. Are you separate from love? The Sufi will simply show that it is impossible, you also are love. Now there is a problem in your words though, you say no man should be related to God, then man must be basically hatred, it is the only conclusion. The Torah goes on saying ALL are the children of God, this is more truthful. Jesus says God lives within and without, he is your center and the nature of everything you see, this is more true and the statement that he is within is why there is meditation. Why go looking in the world if he is here within you?
Muhammad says nothing exists save God, it means the same thing. If you can drop all your identifications, all your concepts and beliefs, everything, then suddenly God comes upon you. No man can be God because when God is there the man has left. Jesus says "I and my father are one", it is not that he is saying he is God, he is saying neither he nor God are something distinct, separate from one another. God is a concept, he has dropped it, but he has also dropped the concept of who he was - this is why he says his mother and brothers are his people, not the biological family outside of the temple.
He has known the reality, I hope you become aware of it before you leave this place too.
L
Lunitik
Guest
This is the true nature of surrender, of islam, and is the only religion, the only way to re-bind, to remove duality between yourself and the rest of existence. Surrender yourself, your ideas, your beliefs, everything you think you are, become absolutely nothing and still remain thankful, prayerful. When you are utterly void, then you know truth - truth is God, but your idea of God is bound to be wrong because it limits Him to the capacity of that mind. The mind is naught but these ideas though, when you can drop them all, you go beyond mind. All fallacy is the doing of the mind, see truth now!
Everything I say is found in the Quran, please see without ego, without conceptions. Muhammad has become enlightened in the cave, wheresoever you are now can be your cave, simply allow. You are in paradise this moment, it is not anywhere else but here. Muhammad has found it, will you?
Everything I say is found in the Quran, please see without ego, without conceptions. Muhammad has become enlightened in the cave, wheresoever you are now can be your cave, simply allow. You are in paradise this moment, it is not anywhere else but here. Muhammad has found it, will you?
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
farhan and abdullah,
Thank you for taking the time to answer. It seems to me that the case with sufism is a lot like that with kabblah in Judaism... in that one must be a wholly committed Muslim or Jew as a prerequisite. That makes sense. The "orientalist" definition has always bothered me (I like traditions, even ones I do not susscribe to).
Having just read all of the interveining posts, what (from the Sharia point-of-view) is the evidence (or alledged evidence for tampering with the Quran? I find plenty of allegations, but little proof (in the way Ehrman or other academics have plenty of proof about the inaccuracies in the OT and NT). The language charge (must be read in Arabic) also bothers me because for more than a millenia the HCC forced latin on people (yet did not let the laity read it). The Oriental Orthodox, Armenian and Tewahedo chuches went another way.
Thank you for taking the time to answer. It seems to me that the case with sufism is a lot like that with kabblah in Judaism... in that one must be a wholly committed Muslim or Jew as a prerequisite. That makes sense. The "orientalist" definition has always bothered me (I like traditions, even ones I do not susscribe to).
Having just read all of the interveining posts, what (from the Sharia point-of-view) is the evidence (or alledged evidence for tampering with the Quran? I find plenty of allegations, but little proof (in the way Ehrman or other academics have plenty of proof about the inaccuracies in the OT and NT). The language charge (must be read in Arabic) also bothers me because for more than a millenia the HCC forced latin on people (yet did not let the laity read it). The Oriental Orthodox, Armenian and Tewahedo chuches went another way.
unfortunately my dear Lunitik, everything you have said basically translates into polythiesm and idolatry; it dont take no einstien to figure out how too, so i'll leave you to work that out yourself
I had a similar discussion not so long ago, and i'll post up those excerpts here to explain the Islamic view on this, which allthough emphasises a deep personal relationship with ALlah [swt], it is very careful at the same time to avoid transgressing the divine limits
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Having the Experience of God is to Know that ALL return ...Rumi etc have all had the Experience although granted you will only KNOW that when you have your SELF because it is then you fully recognise what they are speaking of .... And also after the experience yes indeed you can walk away from God even after "seeing" towards "Hell" which is seperation from God .... or seperation from PERFECT LOVE ..... So after "REVELATION" which is certainty... you know none fail BUT you also know that how long it takes to get home is up to each of us ... and anywhere but in Gods presence aka the awareness of God is HELL.]
many a fake sufi's have tried to take advantage of the 'mysticism' involved with sufism and use that to justify all sorts of fake beliefs; especially perrenialism, i.e how the 'mysticism' of islam shows that all religions can be compatiable in beliefs etc, but i can assure you Rumi or Ghazali [mabpwt] were genuine sufi's and they would not at all teach any of that hocus pocus 'mystical' stuff
the true mysticism in sufism is when ethereal realities are experienced by one, but these are just 'toys' for the child that is progressing down the path of attaining excellence in faith [ihsan] and not objectives at all and not any revelations of how the exoterix Islam has been all misleading and this 'esoteric' has now revealed that a hocus pocus path of perrenialistic mumbo jumbo is really the Truth!
All these fake sufi's do is take distorted quotes and half quotes of original sufi's, and twist the supposed meanings into their own religion!
sometimes genuine sufi's can utter ecstatic and unclear phrases, such as a sufi who is in a deep trance can sometimes be inspired with the words of ALLAH [swt] Himself, saying 'I am your Lord'!; they in turn out of love and devotion can repeat those phrases just as a listener to a poet will repeat his out of love and admiration, but the fake sufi's use such utterances to claim that man is God himself [naudhubillah!]
so really to learn about Islam the only reliable sources are the exoteric Quran, sunnah and Scholarly works; the sUfi master Ibn Al-Arabi himself emphasised this fact when he said:
the esoteric that contravenes the exoteric is a fraud! [see 'universal validity of religions' by Nuh Keller]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Once you have "seen" God you know that all that dies is the body and not YOUR SELF ... Are there still some fears about how you let you body go ... yes there can be ... so the practice of forgiveness continues and you slowly hold up your "fears" (fear being the opposite of Love) to be healed.]
oh i see, you are thinking that the fear is about 'death' itself; no no my dear Tony; I'm talking about the fear of being punished by Allah [swt]; starting of with the beatings of angels of the soul, then the beating of the body and soul? in the grave, then the hell-fire after one is judged
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Is it not arrogant to oppose Gods will ... God says that it is HIS will that all return .... Rather arrogant to suppose some wont then ?]
Return yes, but where will God put us?; the fear lies there!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Backwards thinking ... The way "out" is to forgive your Brothers and in doing so you forgive your self ...]
hmm, so what should a muderer do? murder someone and then say 'i forgive myself' and not worry about it anymore?; how about trying to get forgiveness from the victims side and God?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The day of Judgement is to KNOW all are innocent ... but you would have to understand our ONENESS to see the meaning of that ... You see God made us in his image ... If we are guilty then God must be guilty ... or we have somehow overcome God and are now more powerful than HIM making sin real ! That said there are pitfalls as you say in that some who are not ready would say .... "so it doesnt matter what we do ... good or bad" and indeed may cause themselves and others trouble ...]
the Chrisitans have got that wrong Tony; there are even hadiths where it is said that ALlah made man in his image, but the 'his' part infact refers to the man and not Allah [swt], i,e Allah made man in 'his', i.e in the mans, image, i.e, in the image that man is in
Quote:
Originally Posted by
There is also consensus in the Christian Churches that they have the correct interpretations ...... Before Pauls writing was butchered it clearly said only those that have EXPERIENCED God should teach about God and that it was an abomination for a man who hasnt been "inserted into the light" to teach about God ... because he doesnt KNOW God.. .... Of course this was turned into an anti homosexual teaching by men who didnt know and who didnt want to lose there high positions in the church. So I dont go with what MAN declares correct ......unless they can tell me the colour of God.]
we dont need to worry about what 'man' declares correct, for we have the undistorted revealed scriputers thus we look to what God declares correct
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Certainty comes from Knowing as I have said. If i see anyone doing something wrong I ask that MY mind is corrected ,,,,,, I am the one witnessing it]
i'm not talking about that kind of certainty Tony; no-one has more certainty than Muslims in matters of belief, trust me, but are we not talking about wether a person will go to heaven or hell after death?; this is what we cannot be certain of and can just hope and pray to be saved from hell and to be granted forgiveness and Paradise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
If you are certain God is perfect LOVE and union with him is perfect LOVE ... purified mind ... how does fear help ? fear is the opposite of GOD ?]
We believe in Gods love too; this is why we never loose hope in his Mercy, but fearing helps for it gives us a mind set where we do not belittle sins and take them seriously; focusing just on Gods love and Mercy can make a person complacent about sinning; 'God is all loving, dont worry about it [sin] and just do it and if you have done it, just shrug it off like one would a fly from his shoulders, for God has or will most certainly forgive!';this is the sort of mindset just focusing on Gods love induces
it is said in Islam that a hypocryt thinks like the latter and a true believer fears for his sins [the consequences he might receive for them] as if he is under a rock that is about to fall on him!
no wonder you got christians just sinning left right and centre Tony; with that sort of teaching it is only expected!
'sinning' involves a lot of things that bring great suffering on GODS creation too, people are murdering one another, they are theiving from one another, etc, etc, and to just focus on Gods love and not his justice and punishment is bound to make a person [or the general people] careless about commiting such sins, and to attribute such teachings to GOD who would no doubt would want to keep strong detterents from people going down that path, is really to negate his Love
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The whole point is that each of our minds has to be purified until we see Gods Creation and not ours .... The Holy war aka Jihad is that which takes place in our own minds..... not "out there" ..... And we all suceed because God is not mocked.... What he created perfect cannot be changed no matter what we think ....]
How great; i can just imagine a serial killer getting inspiration from this; dont worry charles manson, you've done no wrong, your perfect!
Tony, i knew that since the distortion of Christianty it has been greatly influenced by peoples desires, but not to this extent!; now it seems they've done away with any notion of Justice or possible punishments in the hereafter and just saying 'do not worry for whatver you may do, all you need to do is forgive yourself!
i wonder if that is what ian huntley; the nutter who murdered two little girls thought?; 'i'll murder them and just forgive myself'! [shakes his head!]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[So you would understsnd that when Rumi speaks of the moon he is speaking of the exact same as Jesus speaking of coming upon the Clouds and one Islamic mystic states that the clouds and the moon are the same .... of course i expect they had to use care of what they spoke so they didnt upset the Imams .... same as is Christianity ... man make up there minds what books mean and then kill anyone who doesnt agree with them ... ?
the guidance is taken from the revealed revelations; i.e, what Allah [swt] revealed, the Quran, and what HE inspired the Prophet Muhammad [saw] with the meaning of, i,e, the hadith/Sunnah, and not poems Tony
as i said poems have meanings of what the poet has in his heart and they are just sources of strengthening the heart with faith and developing love for Allah [swt]; the apperant meanings can seem to be contradictory to the revealed revelations, but if one enquires from the poet what is really meant by it, then it all fits in; in the case where the meanings have not been clarified then the reader should himself fit it in? the Quranic and Sunnah guidance rather than take the apperant meaning as the source of guidance itself
as mentioned previously, the fakes have been misquoting and distorting such poems and utterances from the sufi's to fit it in their own agenda; and some of the quotes may be genuine but they are misinterpreted
Sufi poetry and ecstatic utterances are not meant as sources of guidance, hence there is no need for the sufi's to 'be careful' in what they say, for they know no muslim takes them as sources of guidance; and their ecstatic phrases cannot be helped for they are involuntary..., and no one in their right minds will take them as sources of guidance iether.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[How would you Know fake ? Have you Expereined God .. Do your Imams know the Colour of God ?
no one 'experienced' God as did the best of creation, the Prophet Muhammad [saw] and his companions, and the interpretation of Islam we have are from them; their level of a personal relationship with ALlah can never be matched by any sufi; sufism is a means to try and attain the same level of personal relationship with ALlah as the companions of the Prophet [saw] had, and only a very few sufi's infact reach that stage; that stage is not to interpret Islam better, for islam has allready been interpreted fully by the Master of the sufi's allready, the Prophet [saw], but to obey an order of Allah and that order can be found in a hadith; i.e, to attain excellence of faith [ihsan] and this has been explained as to worship ALLAH as though you see him, for allthough we see Him not [litterally] yet Allah sees us; that is all it is and it is not for some type of interpretation of Islam that has been kept a mystery and only the Sufi path can reveal this, as the fakes would have us believe!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[Yes and the only way to Know GOD is to Expereince God .... The question is do you want to KNOW God or Know a book ?
Muslims experience a closeness to God, and not God himself; God is not an energy or spiritual entity for anyone to experience!; the highest level of faith is, as mentioned, to worship God as though one sees Him; this basically means to have a very hightened God conciousness in one's heart, especially when one worships, for in other duties the level of faith is bound to decrease somewhat; in a hadith it is said that the Prophet [saw] asked someone about his state; the companion [ra] answered [something like] that he sees [imagines] before him people screaming in hell, and the people of Paradise chatting to one another...; the Prophet [saw] replied that he has a gnosis of Allah; this is basically what the highest level of faith is; to have a very hightened awareness of the spiritual realities that keeps one 24/7 on the path of seeking the pleasure of ALLAH [SWT] and fearing to commit any sins, or not commiting any sins out of love for Allah [swt]
the companions of the Prophet [saw] did not need any sufi methodology to aquire this gnosis of ALLAH [swt], for they automatically attained it by the blessed presence of the Prophet [saw] himself, but as the days went by, the generations after the Prophet [saw] began to gradually loose that level of faith, hence a remedial methodology was devised by the saints to attain that level of faith; this is all sufism, or even the highest level of sufism is, so all it is is a path to obey the guidance in the Quran and sunnah to attain ihsan, and not to find out a supposed hidden interpretation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[Why would any fear God .... God is LOVE .... He doesnt know the word punish .... Hell fire ... You bought that hook line and sinker from the Christians then ?
“Know they not that whoever opposes God and His Messenger (Muhammad), certainly for him will be the Fire of Hell to abide therein, That is the extreme disgrace.” (Quran 9:63)
“And fear the Fire which is prepared for the disbelievers.” (Quran 3:131)
“They will long to leave the Fire, but never will they leave there from; and theirs will be a lasting torment.” (Quran 5:37)
“…And they will never leave of the Fire.” (Quran 2:167)
“Surely, those who disbelieve and did wrong; God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever.” (Quran 4:168-169)
“Surely, God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide for ever.” (Quran 33:64)
“And whosoever disobeys God and His Messenger, then surely, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever.” (Quran 72:23)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[Well is God is Love and ALL it is impossible to go anywhere else other than GOD ... Unless you are saying there is something that is outseide of God ?
3,55-57 ...Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute. As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers. And as for those who believe and do righteous good deeds, Allâh will pay them their reward in full. And Allâh does not like the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers).
The above verses are litterally Gods Speech itself; now who would you rather believe; God or a man who says differently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
You reap what you sow ... a murderer has to deal with his own mind and his own actions ...
so you think that the distress and worry and the guilty feeling some go through is enough of a punishment for murder?
and lets bear in mind that many criminals dont care or feel a bit of guilt over their crimes; there just happy to get away with it; and some criminals allways look forward to commiting more criminal acts for they love it; so some consequences of 'having to deal with one's own mind' which only some people have shouldn't be a sufficient detterent or Justice in anyones book Tony, thus this i'm afraid says nothing about why God should not punish
Quote:
Originally Posted by
seeing a sinner makes the seer a sinner .....
we see sinners everyday in the streets, so i guess were all sinners because of that!
; this type of rationality really shouldn't have to be countered Tone, for one shouldn't err that much to come out with it in the first place!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kama is the punishment...and will continue until the mind is changed and purified ...that is not Gods punishment but mans own doing .... You do it unto your self ..
karma is experienced by a lot of people on earth, but what Islam says is that they are just minor pre-liminary punishments indicating the right and wrong way; sometimes karma may get a sin/crime totally forgiven, for example, a murderer may meet his own death by being murdered by someone or getting the death penalty for it, but what about sins against God?, surely the 'karma' there isn't enough;
we can see that there is great temptation in the world to sin and not obey God and just live according to one's desires, and people do all of that allthough they do encounter a certain degree of karma too, but the fact that they continue in their path is proof enough that they really dont mind that karma effect all that much, so obviously the karma is not a detterent at all for the general people, so i ask you, what has the All-Loving God done to prevent people from harming his loved creation?; obviously 'karma' isn't working; i put it to you that it would be to negate Gods love and wisdom if such a deficient detterent is associated with Him to protect and save his loved servants!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
God is formless and Infinite ... Beautiful beyond all words
that is true, thus He is not in the image of man or visa versa; God has unequivically clarified this in the last undistorted revelation we have
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A book cannot give you God ... Only you "Expereincing God can give you that .... God is not a book ... A book at the very best points ......
so your saying that a man who claims to have delved into the spiritual world and found out that there is no hell etc, etc, is more trustworthy than Gods direct speech itself?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
If God is Life ...why do you believe in death ... Did God create death ? Why do you think at this point of "death" God turns up ? How can you be saved from something you make real .... Where in God is HELL .. Or is there some place outside of God ? The infinite Alpha and Omega is actually thus not ALL ...Hell has a space also ?
As I said Tone, Christianity is distorted so allow me to correct the concept of Alpha and Omega; Allah [swt] is the first, i.e He was allways there before anything else, and the last, He will be allways there, even when the rest of creation is destroyed and thereafter resurrected; Alpha and omega does not in any way mean that a supposed 'body' of Allah is everywhere and that all of creation dwells in it!
God/Allah [swt] has clarified in the last revelation that God is not litterally everywhere that all things dwell in Him; God is so great, so infinite that God is beyond conceptualisation, hence since 'God is everywhere and all things dwell inside God' is a human thought, then we can be sure that cannot be attributed to God; all human thoughts are created and God is far beyond and exalted above every human thought
The Quran has clarified that there are two ways to consider where God is, one that God is everywhere, but we do not dwell on exactly how He is everywhere
And 2 is, to think about God being everywhere in the more defined theological way, and that is that God is everywhere only in His knowledge, i.e, he knows everything; he is closer to us then our jugular veins even meaning that he knows ourselves/hearts better than us
God is nowhere for anywhere we can think of is a created place and God does not dwell in his creation, allthough Gods power and will encompasses everything; God does not have a presence anywhere for created things have a presence and God is totally unlike created things. hence when Muslims say God is beyond conceptualisation, they really mean it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
It is impossible to Love and Fear ..... And IF you LOVE as God Loves you would not Sin .....
how can we ever love as God loves when we ourselves are not God?; us humans who cannot even stop ourselves from being struck down by illnesses or dying, are to extol ourselves to the level of the Allmighty now is it and think that we can love like God?; does not that spell the ultimate arrogance to you Tony, for it does indeed to us
Gods love and all his other attributes infact are nothing remotely like that of humans at all; this can get a bit confusing to understand so i'll post up this brilliant explanation by one of the leading UK Scholars:
Theological lessons from the Sumatra earthquake
Quote:
Originally Posted by
This is because the Love you understand is not LOVE as defined by God. God never condemned .... we do ! But you see you want judgement and punishment ... not LOVE ..... so you reap wqhat you sow and your world is full of sinner s... kama ....
Trust me Tony; we do not want punishment or judgement [for the very pious/righteous will go to heaven without even being judged; we want this for everyone!]; this is why we spend so much time on boards like this trying to save everyone!
We are also encouragd to forgive people who have wronged us and not demand justice, but allthough in cases where the criminal is likely to continue wronging other people then to seek some worldy justice is advisable
or sometimes if the opression on a person is far too great, then in such circumstances the persons heart and soul will automatically cry out for divine justice and it could not be helped there, but apart from that, we are highly encouragd to forgive, and return good for evil
Quote:
Originally Posted by
When you Know.... you do not sin because Everyone you look upon is a part of your SELF .... Gods Children ... You realise that when you hurt another you literally hurt yourself ....
you mean Gods creation!; using anthropomorphic and associating language such as 'Gods Children' can be dangerous Tony, for to attribute children to God or to anthropomorphise God is polythiesm and idolatry which earns one an eternity in hell [if they die without repenting from all of that]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Well in your understanding that comment was likely ... Just like you everyones a sinner ... your world .. you make it ... when it gets to painful you will look for another way ,.,, I hope thats sooner rather than later because you are worth more than this.
what ever way we look for, we cannot escape the return to God, and the subsequent Judgement, hence the only wise way is to go down the path of Paradise and avoid the one that leads to the fire, and to define those paths, we have to look towards Gods divine guidance; the Quran and Sunnah; did you know that these two sources have been verified and substantiated intellectually as being what they claim to be?, with plenty of miraculous signs in them too?; so after all of this if we choose to ignore or deny, can we fault God if He gives us that horrendous and ultimate punishment?
Originally Posted by
[Yes and the only way to Know GOD is to Expereince God .... The question is do you want to KNOW God or Know a book ?
Muslims experience a closeness to God, and not God himself; God is not an energy or spiritual entity for anyone to experience!; the highest level of faith is, as mentioned, to worship God as though one sees Him; this basically means to have a very hightened God conciousness in one's heart, especially when one worships, for in other duties the level of faith is bound to decrease somewhat; in a hadith it is said that the Prophet [saw] asked someone about his state; the companion [ra] answered [something like] that he sees [imagines] before him people screaming in hell, and the people of Paradise chatting to one another...; the Prophet [saw] replied that he has a gnosis of Allah; this is basically what the highest level of faith is; to have a very hightened awareness of the spiritual realities that keeps one 24/7 on the path of seeking the pleasure of ALLAH [SWT] and fearing to commit any sins, or not commiting any sins out of love for Allah [swt]
the companions of the Prophet [saw] did not need any sufi methodology to aquire this gnosis of ALLAH [swt], for they automatically attained it by the blessed presence of the Prophet [saw] himself, but as the days went by, the generations after the Prophet [saw] began to gradually loose that level of faith, hence a remedial methodology was devised by the saints to attain that level of faith; this is all sufism, or even the highest level of sufism is, so all it is is a path to obey the guidance in the Quran and sunnah to attain ihsan, and not to find out a supposed hidden interpretation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[Why would any fear God .... God is LOVE .... He doesnt know the word punish .... Hell fire ... You bought that hook line and sinker from the Christians then ?
“Know they not that whoever opposes God and His Messenger (Muhammad), certainly for him will be the Fire of Hell to abide therein, That is the extreme disgrace.” (Quran 9:63)
“And fear the Fire which is prepared for the disbelievers.” (Quran 3:131)
“They will long to leave the Fire, but never will they leave there from; and theirs will be a lasting torment.” (Quran 5:37)
“…And they will never leave of the Fire.” (Quran 2:167)
“Surely, those who disbelieve and did wrong; God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever.” (Quran 4:168-169)
“Surely, God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide for ever.” (Quran 33:64)
“And whosoever disobeys God and His Messenger, then surely, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever.” (Quran 72:23)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[Well is God is Love and ALL it is impossible to go anywhere else other than GOD ... Unless you are saying there is something that is outseide of God ?
3,55-57 ...Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute. As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers. And as for those who believe and do righteous good deeds, Allâh will pay them their reward in full. And Allâh does not like the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers).
The above verses are litterally Gods Speech itself; now who would you rather believe; God or a man who says differently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
You reap what you sow ... a murderer has to deal with his own mind and his own actions ...
so you think that the distress and worry and the guilty feeling some go through is enough of a punishment for murder?
and lets bear in mind that many criminals dont care or feel a bit of guilt over their crimes; there just happy to get away with it; and some criminals allways look forward to commiting more criminal acts for they love it; so some consequences of 'having to deal with one's own mind' which only some people have shouldn't be a sufficient detterent or Justice in anyones book Tony, thus this i'm afraid says nothing about why God should not punish
Quote:
Originally Posted by
seeing a sinner makes the seer a sinner .....
we see sinners everyday in the streets, so i guess were all sinners because of that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kama is the punishment...and will continue until the mind is changed and purified ...that is not Gods punishment but mans own doing .... You do it unto your self ..
karma is experienced by a lot of people on earth, but what Islam says is that they are just minor pre-liminary punishments indicating the right and wrong way; sometimes karma may get a sin/crime totally forgiven, for example, a murderer may meet his own death by being murdered by someone or getting the death penalty for it, but what about sins against God?, surely the 'karma' there isn't enough;
we can see that there is great temptation in the world to sin and not obey God and just live according to one's desires, and people do all of that allthough they do encounter a certain degree of karma too, but the fact that they continue in their path is proof enough that they really dont mind that karma effect all that much, so obviously the karma is not a detterent at all for the general people, so i ask you, what has the All-Loving God done to prevent people from harming his loved creation?; obviously 'karma' isn't working; i put it to you that it would be to negate Gods love and wisdom if such a deficient detterent is associated with Him to protect and save his loved servants!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
God is formless and Infinite ... Beautiful beyond all words
that is true, thus He is not in the image of man or visa versa; God has unequivically clarified this in the last undistorted revelation we have
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A book cannot give you God ... Only you "Expereincing God can give you that .... God is not a book ... A book at the very best points ......
so your saying that a man who claims to have delved into the spiritual world and found out that there is no hell etc, etc, is more trustworthy than Gods direct speech itself?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
If God is Life ...why do you believe in death ... Did God create death ? Why do you think at this point of "death" God turns up ? How can you be saved from something you make real .... Where in God is HELL .. Or is there some place outside of God ? The infinite Alpha and Omega is actually thus not ALL ...Hell has a space also ?
As I said Tone, Christianity is distorted so allow me to correct the concept of Alpha and Omega; Allah [swt] is the first, i.e He was allways there before anything else, and the last, He will be allways there, even when the rest of creation is destroyed and thereafter resurrected; Alpha and omega does not in any way mean that a supposed 'body' of Allah is everywhere and that all of creation dwells in it!
God/Allah [swt] has clarified in the last revelation that God is not litterally everywhere that all things dwell in Him; God is so great, so infinite that God is beyond conceptualisation, hence since 'God is everywhere and all things dwell inside God' is a human thought, then we can be sure that cannot be attributed to God; all human thoughts are created and God is far beyond and exalted above every human thought
The Quran has clarified that there are two ways to consider where God is, one that God is everywhere, but we do not dwell on exactly how He is everywhere
And 2 is, to think about God being everywhere in the more defined theological way, and that is that God is everywhere only in His knowledge, i.e, he knows everything; he is closer to us then our jugular veins even meaning that he knows ourselves/hearts better than us
God is nowhere for anywhere we can think of is a created place and God does not dwell in his creation, allthough Gods power and will encompasses everything; God does not have a presence anywhere for created things have a presence and God is totally unlike created things. hence when Muslims say God is beyond conceptualisation, they really mean it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
It is impossible to Love and Fear ..... And IF you LOVE as God Loves you would not Sin .....
how can we ever love as God loves when we ourselves are not God?; us humans who cannot even stop ourselves from being struck down by illnesses or dying, are to extol ourselves to the level of the Allmighty now is it and think that we can love like God?; does not that spell the ultimate arrogance to you Tony, for it does indeed to us
Gods love and all his other attributes infact are nothing remotely like that of humans at all; this can get a bit confusing to understand so i'll post up this brilliant explanation by one of the leading UK Scholars:
Theological lessons from the Sumatra earthquake
Quote:
Originally Posted by
This is because the Love you understand is not LOVE as defined by God. God never condemned .... we do ! But you see you want judgement and punishment ... not LOVE ..... so you reap wqhat you sow and your world is full of sinner s... kama ....
Trust me Tony; we do not want punishment or judgement [for the very pious/righteous will go to heaven without even being judged; we want this for everyone!]; this is why we spend so much time on boards like this trying to save everyone!
We are also encouragd to forgive people who have wronged us and not demand justice, but allthough in cases where the criminal is likely to continue wronging other people then to seek some worldy justice is advisable
or sometimes if the opression on a person is far too great, then in such circumstances the persons heart and soul will automatically cry out for divine justice and it could not be helped there, but apart from that, we are highly encouragd to forgive, and return good for evil
Quote:
Originally Posted by
When you Know.... you do not sin because Everyone you look upon is a part of your SELF .... Gods Children ... You realise that when you hurt another you literally hurt yourself ....
you mean Gods creation!; using anthropomorphic and associating language such as 'Gods Children' can be dangerous Tony, for to attribute children to God or to anthropomorphise God is polythiesm and idolatry which earns one an eternity in hell [if they die without repenting from all of that]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Well in your understanding that comment was likely ... Just like you everyones a sinner ... your world .. you make it ... when it gets to painful you will look for another way ,.,, I hope thats sooner rather than later because you are worth more than this.
what ever way we look for, we cannot escape the return to God, and the subsequent Judgement, hence the only wise way is to go down the path of Paradise and avoid the one that leads to the fire, and to define those paths, we have to look towards Gods divine guidance; the Quran and Sunnah; did you know that these two sources have been verified and substantiated intellectually as being what they claim to be?, with plenty of miraculous signs in them too?; so after all of this if we choose to ignore or deny, can we fault God if He gives us that horrendous and ultimate punishment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Well again this mans mind will have to undo all of that .... you kill because you beleive in killing ..... that then has to be corrected .. I wouldnt want to have to deal with those lessons .... not because of God but because thats a big lesson to work on and undo ....... of course you mock because that murderer is apart from you ... not part of the ONE .... and thus you are happy to execute that murderer. ..... becoming the murderer ..... what is the difference between murderer that stalks the streets and the one who smiles with glee at the exectution ... both are satisfied by murder ..... and if that glee is in the mind ... you have commited the murder ... i sugges therefore that you take thought of the mind that agrees with murder .... Did God created death , murder ? Are these the creations of God ?
do you think there are two Creators? is the Creator; Lord God Allmighty not the One and Only?
Allah has created both good and evil to test mankind, but it is man that aquires the evil, thus God is never to blame!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I am not a Christian ... But only mans arrogance could lead him to decide what is Justice .... Which i believe all Holly books state ... God is the Judge .... Seems you are the one that has taken the parts you like ..... Jesus says judge not and man says ... ohhhhh its ok if they are Gay or I cannot judge unless its in my book Whos the hypocrites ?
but how can you say what Jesus said or not from the Bible when the Bible is proven to be distorted with biblical scholars themselves attesting to that; how do you know that what you attribute to Jesus [pbuh] is not some of the man-made stuff?; the only way to know is to compare it to the undistorted and verifiable last revelation; the Quran and see what matches the true guidance...; also in the Quran ALlah [swt] has clarified Jesus' real message there
the Quran also mentions that [even if an undistorted copy of the Injeel [the book that was revealed to Jesus pbuh] was found, yet] the last Messenger Muhammad [saw] and the Quran has abrogated all previously divinely revealed religions, hence only Islam is valid now thus this is the only way of salvation; the Quran has ushered in some changes regarding the lawfull, unlawfull and acts of worship, allthough the belief remains th same, hence should you not look into the Quran now to learn about the way of salvation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rather than talk the talk .... The religious might at some point walk the walk.....but presently the idea of giving up judgement and forgiving as we were instructed .. no .... ignore that ... That would mean not arguing ... not fighting another race of people ... not being right .... having to discipline the mind ..... perish the thought ! ......... But I assure you that to return to God .... death wont cut it ... The mind must be purified ..... of all but perfect LOVE ..... So do you have faith in ALLAH to walk the walk ?
Gods guidance incorporates the talk, and the walk, so both go hand in hand in Islam; the walk to save oneself and the talk to save others!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thats a shame because of all the writings I have read the closest I have come to something that Speaks of God is Rumi Poetry.
put that to the intellecutal scrutiny, and you will see that what comes close to 'Rumi poetry' is a distorted Bible, hence what one would like to believe in there of being the words of Jesus [pbuh] can be, or if it contradicts the Quran, is the man-made forgeries and if it is based on the likes of 'fake Sufi's', then on wishfull thinking; also based on what the fakes are purpoting to be original Rumi stuff and misinterpreted Rumi stuff [if some are genuine that is] to fit an overall desire based religion!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Well I have Experienced God ... All I did was cease Judgement and Love my Brothers ... through the practice of forgiveness .... Not hard . I dont know what your rules are ... maybe God made an exception for me ... eh ?
how convenient!; love your brothers and do as you desire!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
God Is LOVE .... Infinite ... Rumi speaks perfectly of the Experience of God
Here is what God is, but do bear in mind that Gods attributes are not even remotely like that of humans:
99 Names of Allah - An Explanation of the Perfect Names and Attributes of God
to think that God is only love, is based on desire too tony; it fits in with one's desire to do as he pleases on earth and not worry about any justice after death
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I again repeat I have had "gnosis" of God .... through ceasing Judgement .... of ALL Brothers
Ceasing judgement, is good; God instructs us not to judge iether, but we can and should define the path and actions that lead to hell and the one's that lead to heaven; it is not only good to save oneself, one must also strive to save all mankind; this is the essence of love!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I agree that gnosis can be tranferred through mind to others .. although that is not the Experiencer that does this ... it happens through him ... and is only done when the other is ready .... because being lifted to the awareness of Infinite SELF could be traumatic unless prepared ...
To attain gnosis is one of the orders of God, but it cannot be done witout obeying god; we can not leave out step one and step two, etc, and just want the result of step 100; and to think that one has attained the result of step 100 without the rest, is to put it frankly, a delusion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
After the Expereince you know what all the scriptures that are written with KNOWLEDGE mean ... because you know what they are actually speaking about ...
This is true to an extent that the meanings are more clarified in a spiritually experenitial way, but no spiritual experience of man can be more knowledgabe or enlightening than Gods divine speach itself, and for the unclear statements of the Quran, the interpretations of the most spiritually enlightened person of all, Master Muhammad [saw]!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Same tactics as Christianity ... Control by fear ...
have you carried out a thorough investigation of wether the Quran really is from God and wether Prophet Muhammad [saw] really is His Messenger?; without that, then your just assuming!, and assuming in regards to the eternal life is, lets just say not wise at all
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Is that so and yet we are told the angel Jibril revealed the details to Muhammed and not God ?
So they are not the literally Gods Speech are they !
they are; the angel Jibril [as] recited Gods litteral speech!
Originally Posted by
Well again this mans mind will have to undo all of that .... you kill because you beleive in killing ..... that then has to be corrected .. I wouldnt want to have to deal with those lessons .... not because of God but because thats a big lesson to work on and undo ....... of course you mock because that murderer is apart from you ... not part of the ONE .... and thus you are happy to execute that murderer. ..... becoming the murderer ..... what is the difference between murderer that stalks the streets and the one who smiles with glee at the exectution ... both are satisfied by murder ..... and if that glee is in the mind ... you have commited the murder ... i sugges therefore that you take thought of the mind that agrees with murder .... Did God created death , murder ? Are these the creations of God ?
do you think there are two Creators? is the Creator; Lord God Allmighty not the One and Only?
Allah has created both good and evil to test mankind, but it is man that aquires the evil, thus God is never to blame!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I am not a Christian ... But only mans arrogance could lead him to decide what is Justice .... Which i believe all Holly books state ... God is the Judge .... Seems you are the one that has taken the parts you like ..... Jesus says judge not and man says ... ohhhhh its ok if they are Gay or I cannot judge unless its in my book Whos the hypocrites ?
but how can you say what Jesus said or not from the Bible when the Bible is proven to be distorted with biblical scholars themselves attesting to that; how do you know that what you attribute to Jesus [pbuh] is not some of the man-made stuff?; the only way to know is to compare it to the undistorted and verifiable last revelation; the Quran and see what matches the true guidance...; also in the Quran ALlah [swt] has clarified Jesus' real message there
the Quran also mentions that [even if an undistorted copy of the Injeel [the book that was revealed to Jesus pbuh] was found, yet] the last Messenger Muhammad [saw] and the Quran has abrogated all previously divinely revealed religions, hence only Islam is valid now thus this is the only way of salvation; the Quran has ushered in some changes regarding the lawfull, unlawfull and acts of worship, allthough the belief remains th same, hence should you not look into the Quran now to learn about the way of salvation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rather than talk the talk .... The religious might at some point walk the walk.....but presently the idea of giving up judgement and forgiving as we were instructed .. no .... ignore that ... That would mean not arguing ... not fighting another race of people ... not being right .... having to discipline the mind ..... perish the thought ! ......... But I assure you that to return to God .... death wont cut it ... The mind must be purified ..... of all but perfect LOVE ..... So do you have faith in ALLAH to walk the walk ?
Gods guidance incorporates the talk, and the walk, so both go hand in hand in Islam; the walk to save oneself and the talk to save others!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thats a shame because of all the writings I have read the closest I have come to something that Speaks of God is Rumi Poetry.
put that to the intellecutal scrutiny, and you will see that what comes close to 'Rumi poetry' is a distorted Bible, hence what one would like to believe in there of being the words of Jesus [pbuh] can be, or if it contradicts the Quran, is the man-made forgeries and if it is based on the likes of 'fake Sufi's', then on wishfull thinking; also based on what the fakes are purpoting to be original Rumi stuff and misinterpreted Rumi stuff [if some are genuine that is] to fit an overall desire based religion!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Well I have Experienced God ... All I did was cease Judgement and Love my Brothers ... through the practice of forgiveness .... Not hard . I dont know what your rules are ... maybe God made an exception for me ... eh ?
how convenient!; love your brothers and do as you desire!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
God Is LOVE .... Infinite ... Rumi speaks perfectly of the Experience of God
Here is what God is, but do bear in mind that Gods attributes are not even remotely like that of humans:
99 Names of Allah - An Explanation of the Perfect Names and Attributes of God
to think that God is only love, is based on desire too tony; it fits in with one's desire to do as he pleases on earth and not worry about any justice after death
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I again repeat I have had "gnosis" of God .... through ceasing Judgement .... of ALL Brothers
Ceasing judgement, is good; God instructs us not to judge iether, but we can and should define the path and actions that lead to hell and the one's that lead to heaven; it is not only good to save oneself, one must also strive to save all mankind; this is the essence of love!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I agree that gnosis can be tranferred through mind to others .. although that is not the Experiencer that does this ... it happens through him ... and is only done when the other is ready .... because being lifted to the awareness of Infinite SELF could be traumatic unless prepared ...
To attain gnosis is one of the orders of God, but it cannot be done witout obeying god; we can not leave out step one and step two, etc, and just want the result of step 100; and to think that one has attained the result of step 100 without the rest, is to put it frankly, a delusion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
After the Expereince you know what all the scriptures that are written with KNOWLEDGE mean ... because you know what they are actually speaking about ...
This is true to an extent that the meanings are more clarified in a spiritually experenitial way, but no spiritual experience of man can be more knowledgabe or enlightening than Gods divine speach itself, and for the unclear statements of the Quran, the interpretations of the most spiritually enlightened person of all, Master Muhammad [saw]!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Same tactics as Christianity ... Control by fear ...
have you carried out a thorough investigation of wether the Quran really is from God and wether Prophet Muhammad [saw] really is His Messenger?; without that, then your just assuming!, and assuming in regards to the eternal life is, lets just say not wise at all
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Is that so and yet we are told the angel Jibril revealed the details to Muhammed and not God ?
So they are not the literally Gods Speech are they !
they are; the angel Jibril [as] recited Gods litteral speech!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
And the day God speaks a word like "punish" or "hate" is the day a Monkey climbs out of my **** ...... Let me be perfectly clear .. God does not KNOW hate or punishment .... Thats mans miscreation !....
I fear this type of intransigence my dear Tony may make you blind to the Truth for ever!; just consider the miraculous Quran Tony; just investigate it with sincerity and objectivity, so that you may have a chance to be saved from burning in the fire eternally; a fire that is 69 times hotter than the earth fire!, with many more horrendously extreme tortures:
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) narrated: “When Allah’s Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said,
‘Your ordinary fire is one of the 70 potions of the Hellfire,’ someone commented, ‘O Messenger of Allah, would it (ordinary fire) not be sufficient (to burn the wrongdoers)?’ At that, Allah’s Messenger (SAW) said, ‘The Hellfire has 69 more portions than ordinary (worldly) fire, and all of them are as hot as this (worldly fire).’”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]
“The Day that their faces will be turned from side to side in the fire, they will say, ‘We wish that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger.’”
[al-Ahzab, 33: 66]
“The companions of the left hand – what are the companions of the left hand? (They will be) in the midst of a fierce blast (of fire) and in boiling water.”
[al Waqi'ah, 56: 41-42]
“Their abode will be Hell. Every time it abates. We will increase for them the blaze (the fierceness) of the fire.”
[al Isra, 17: 97]
“Those are the ones, who have exchanged the Hereafter for the gains of this worldly life. The punishment will not be lightened for them, and they will not be aided.”
[al Baqarah, 2: 86]
“By no means! For it is Latha (the fire of Hell) burning away right to the skull.”
[Ma’arij, 70: 15-16]
“By no means! He will certainly be thrown into al-Hutamah. And what will make you understand what al-Hutamah is? It is the fire of Allah, kindled to a blaze, which mounts right to the hearts.”
[al Humazah, 104: 4-7]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“The molar tooth of an unbeliever or the canine tooth of an unbeliever will be like [Mount] Uhud, and the thickness of his skin will be like a three night’s journey.”
[Muslim]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“The distance between the two shoulders of the non-believer in Hell will be like a three day’s journey for a swift rider.”
[Muslim]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Indeed, the thickness of the disbeliever’s skin will be the length of forty-two forearms of those of giants, his molar tooth like [Mount] Uhud, and his seat in Hellfire [the distance] between Makkah and Madinah.”
[at-Tirmidhi and al-Hakim]
"No food will there be for them except bitter dhari (a thorny plant), which will neither nourish nor satisfy hunger."
[Surah al-Ghashiyah, 88: 6-7]
“Verily, the tree of Zaqqum will be the food of the sinful. Like molten brass it will boil in their insides like the boiling of scalding water.”
[ad-Dukhan, 44: 43-46]
“Is that (Paradise) the better hospitality or the tree of Zaqqum? For We have truly made it as a torment for the wrongdoers. For it is a tree that springs out of the bottoms of Hellfire; the shoots of its fruit-stalks are like the heads of devils. Truly they will eat from it and fill their bellies with it. Then on top of that they will be given a mixture of boiling water.”
[as-Saffat, 37: 62-67).
“Then will you truly –O you who have gone astray an denied – you will surely eat of the trees of Zaqqum. Then will you fill your stomachs with it and drink boiling water on top of it, and you will drink boiling water on top of it, and you will drink like diseased camels, raging with thirst. Such will be their hospitality on the Day of Requital.”
[al-Qaqi’ah, 56: 51-56]
“With Us are yokes (to bind them) and fire (to burn them) and food that chokes and a grievous punishment.”
[al-Muzzammil, 73: 12-13]
“So he has no friend here this Day, nor does he have any food except what comes from the washing of wounds, which none will eat except the sinners.”
[al Haqqah, 69: 35-37]
“Thus, All this. But indeed for the oppressors will be an evil place of final return. It is Hellfire – they will burn therein, and how evil is that bed, Thus, then will they taste it – a boiling fluid and a filthy fluid of pus and blood and other penalties of a similar kind to match them.”
[Sad, 38: 55-58]
Ibn Abbas (radiAllahu anhu) reported: “The Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) recited the following verse: ‘Fear Allah with the fear due to Him, and do not die except as Muslims.’ Then he said, ‘If a drop of Zaqqum would have fallen into a house in this world, it would have spoiled all the provisions of the people of this world. Then how will it be with one whose food it has become?’”
[at-Tirmidhi, Surah ali'-Imran, 3: 102]
“Say, The Truth is from your Lord, so let him who will, believe, and let him who will, reject it.’ Indeed We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls surround them. If they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like molten brass that will scald their faces. How dreadful the drink. How evil the resting place.”
[al Kahf, 18: 29]
“Do you not see those who dispute concerning the signs of Allah – how they are turned away from truth? Those who reject the Book and that with which We sent Our messengers – soon they will know. When the yokes will be round their necks and the chains. They will be dragged in the boiling water. Then in the Fire they will be burned.”
[Ghafir, 40: 69-72]
“And for them are maces of iron to punish them. Every time they wish to get out from it and from anguish, they will be returned to it, and it will be said, ‘Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire!’”
[al Hajj, 22: 21-22]
Samurah bin Jundub (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Allah’s Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“There will be some to whose ankles the fire will reach, some to whose knees the fire will reach, some to whose waists the fire will reach, and some to whose collarbones the fire will reach.”
[Muslim]
Nu’man bin Basheer (radiAllahu anhu) reported that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Verily, of the inmates of the Fire, the one with the easiest punishment will be one who will have a pair of sandals and s traps of fire. His brain will boil from them as a kettle boils. He does not see that anyone is suffering a punishment more severe than him, while he is the one with the easiest punishment.”
[Sahih al-Bukhari and Muslim]
Ibn Abbas (radiAllahu anhu) reported that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Of the inmates of the Fire, the one with the easiest punishment will be Abu Talib; he will be wearing a pair of shoes which will cause his brain to boil.”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]
“Those who have disbelieved in Our signs – We will burn them in fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We will exchange them for other skins so that they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
[Surah an-Nisa, 4: 56]
“If only the unbelievers knew [about] when they will not be able to ward off the fire from their faces, nor from their backs, and [that] they will not be helped. No, but it will come to them suddenly and confound them. And they will not be able to avert it, nor will they be given respite.”
[al Anbiya, 21: 39-40]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) narrated: “When Allah’s Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said,
‘Your ordinary fire is one of the 70 potions of the Hellfire,’ someone commented, ‘O Messenger of Allah, would it (ordinary fire) not be sufficient (to burn the wrongdoers)?’ At that, Allah’s Messenger (SAW) said, ‘The Hellfire has 69 more portions than ordinary (worldly) fire, and all of them are as hot as this (worldly fire).’”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]
“The Day that their faces will be turned from side to side in the fire, they will say, ‘We wish that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger.’”
[al-Ahzab, 33: 66]
now you may say, why should an All-loving, Mercifull God inflict that type of punishment on people, but just consider what a great sin denial of the Lord and the Truth is, when it is Allah [swt] that feeds you, clothes you, and has given you every good thing that you have, then you want to reject his guidance and live as you desire?, and reject God and just believe in some concept of a creator that you have conjured up in your mind, iether following those who have decieved you or your own concoction, thereby just worshiping that created concept rather than Allah [swt] Himself
All of this is not to proseletise by the way, but just to show you why you are wrong!
...........................................................
All of that severe and torturous punishment quoted above needs an explanation of how Gods overriding Mercy and love can be in harmony with such punishments
when we consider that such punishments is for desbelievers, who'm in Imam alGhazali's view will be rare, for most non-Muslims it is assumed just dont believe out of ignorance rather than an active denial, and some of it for Muslims only temporarily, despite them not being able to avail of the vast Mercy of ALlah and endless chances of redemption, then such punishments really dont compare at all to the Love and compassion of God
May Allah [swt] save us all ameen!
Originally Posted by
And the day God speaks a word like "punish" or "hate" is the day a Monkey climbs out of my **** ...... Let me be perfectly clear .. God does not KNOW hate or punishment .... Thats mans miscreation !....
I fear this type of intransigence my dear Tony may make you blind to the Truth for ever!; just consider the miraculous Quran Tony; just investigate it with sincerity and objectivity, so that you may have a chance to be saved from burning in the fire eternally; a fire that is 69 times hotter than the earth fire!, with many more horrendously extreme tortures:
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) narrated: “When Allah’s Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said,
‘Your ordinary fire is one of the 70 potions of the Hellfire,’ someone commented, ‘O Messenger of Allah, would it (ordinary fire) not be sufficient (to burn the wrongdoers)?’ At that, Allah’s Messenger (SAW) said, ‘The Hellfire has 69 more portions than ordinary (worldly) fire, and all of them are as hot as this (worldly fire).’”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]
“The Day that their faces will be turned from side to side in the fire, they will say, ‘We wish that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger.’”
[al-Ahzab, 33: 66]
“The companions of the left hand – what are the companions of the left hand? (They will be) in the midst of a fierce blast (of fire) and in boiling water.”
[al Waqi'ah, 56: 41-42]
“Their abode will be Hell. Every time it abates. We will increase for them the blaze (the fierceness) of the fire.”
[al Isra, 17: 97]
“Those are the ones, who have exchanged the Hereafter for the gains of this worldly life. The punishment will not be lightened for them, and they will not be aided.”
[al Baqarah, 2: 86]
“By no means! For it is Latha (the fire of Hell) burning away right to the skull.”
[Ma’arij, 70: 15-16]
“By no means! He will certainly be thrown into al-Hutamah. And what will make you understand what al-Hutamah is? It is the fire of Allah, kindled to a blaze, which mounts right to the hearts.”
[al Humazah, 104: 4-7]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“The molar tooth of an unbeliever or the canine tooth of an unbeliever will be like [Mount] Uhud, and the thickness of his skin will be like a three night’s journey.”
[Muslim]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“The distance between the two shoulders of the non-believer in Hell will be like a three day’s journey for a swift rider.”
[Muslim]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Indeed, the thickness of the disbeliever’s skin will be the length of forty-two forearms of those of giants, his molar tooth like [Mount] Uhud, and his seat in Hellfire [the distance] between Makkah and Madinah.”
[at-Tirmidhi and al-Hakim]
"No food will there be for them except bitter dhari (a thorny plant), which will neither nourish nor satisfy hunger."
[Surah al-Ghashiyah, 88: 6-7]
“Verily, the tree of Zaqqum will be the food of the sinful. Like molten brass it will boil in their insides like the boiling of scalding water.”
[ad-Dukhan, 44: 43-46]
“Is that (Paradise) the better hospitality or the tree of Zaqqum? For We have truly made it as a torment for the wrongdoers. For it is a tree that springs out of the bottoms of Hellfire; the shoots of its fruit-stalks are like the heads of devils. Truly they will eat from it and fill their bellies with it. Then on top of that they will be given a mixture of boiling water.”
[as-Saffat, 37: 62-67).
“Then will you truly –O you who have gone astray an denied – you will surely eat of the trees of Zaqqum. Then will you fill your stomachs with it and drink boiling water on top of it, and you will drink boiling water on top of it, and you will drink like diseased camels, raging with thirst. Such will be their hospitality on the Day of Requital.”
[al-Qaqi’ah, 56: 51-56]
“With Us are yokes (to bind them) and fire (to burn them) and food that chokes and a grievous punishment.”
[al-Muzzammil, 73: 12-13]
“So he has no friend here this Day, nor does he have any food except what comes from the washing of wounds, which none will eat except the sinners.”
[al Haqqah, 69: 35-37]
“Thus, All this. But indeed for the oppressors will be an evil place of final return. It is Hellfire – they will burn therein, and how evil is that bed, Thus, then will they taste it – a boiling fluid and a filthy fluid of pus and blood and other penalties of a similar kind to match them.”
[Sad, 38: 55-58]
Ibn Abbas (radiAllahu anhu) reported: “The Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) recited the following verse: ‘Fear Allah with the fear due to Him, and do not die except as Muslims.’ Then he said, ‘If a drop of Zaqqum would have fallen into a house in this world, it would have spoiled all the provisions of the people of this world. Then how will it be with one whose food it has become?’”
[at-Tirmidhi, Surah ali'-Imran, 3: 102]
“Say, The Truth is from your Lord, so let him who will, believe, and let him who will, reject it.’ Indeed We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls surround them. If they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like molten brass that will scald their faces. How dreadful the drink. How evil the resting place.”
[al Kahf, 18: 29]
“Do you not see those who dispute concerning the signs of Allah – how they are turned away from truth? Those who reject the Book and that with which We sent Our messengers – soon they will know. When the yokes will be round their necks and the chains. They will be dragged in the boiling water. Then in the Fire they will be burned.”
[Ghafir, 40: 69-72]
“And for them are maces of iron to punish them. Every time they wish to get out from it and from anguish, they will be returned to it, and it will be said, ‘Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire!’”
[al Hajj, 22: 21-22]
Samurah bin Jundub (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Allah’s Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“There will be some to whose ankles the fire will reach, some to whose knees the fire will reach, some to whose waists the fire will reach, and some to whose collarbones the fire will reach.”
[Muslim]
Nu’man bin Basheer (radiAllahu anhu) reported that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Verily, of the inmates of the Fire, the one with the easiest punishment will be one who will have a pair of sandals and s traps of fire. His brain will boil from them as a kettle boils. He does not see that anyone is suffering a punishment more severe than him, while he is the one with the easiest punishment.”
[Sahih al-Bukhari and Muslim]
Ibn Abbas (radiAllahu anhu) reported that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Of the inmates of the Fire, the one with the easiest punishment will be Abu Talib; he will be wearing a pair of shoes which will cause his brain to boil.”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]
“Those who have disbelieved in Our signs – We will burn them in fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We will exchange them for other skins so that they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
[Surah an-Nisa, 4: 56]
“If only the unbelievers knew [about] when they will not be able to ward off the fire from their faces, nor from their backs, and [that] they will not be helped. No, but it will come to them suddenly and confound them. And they will not be able to avert it, nor will they be given respite.”
[al Anbiya, 21: 39-40]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) narrated: “When Allah’s Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said,
‘Your ordinary fire is one of the 70 potions of the Hellfire,’ someone commented, ‘O Messenger of Allah, would it (ordinary fire) not be sufficient (to burn the wrongdoers)?’ At that, Allah’s Messenger (SAW) said, ‘The Hellfire has 69 more portions than ordinary (worldly) fire, and all of them are as hot as this (worldly fire).’”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]
“The Day that their faces will be turned from side to side in the fire, they will say, ‘We wish that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger.’”
[al-Ahzab, 33: 66]
now you may say, why should an All-loving, Mercifull God inflict that type of punishment on people, but just consider what a great sin denial of the Lord and the Truth is, when it is Allah [swt] that feeds you, clothes you, and has given you every good thing that you have, then you want to reject his guidance and live as you desire?, and reject God and just believe in some concept of a creator that you have conjured up in your mind, iether following those who have decieved you or your own concoction, thereby just worshiping that created concept rather than Allah [swt] Himself
All of this is not to proseletise by the way, but just to show you why you are wrong!
...........................................................
All of that severe and torturous punishment quoted above needs an explanation of how Gods overriding Mercy and love can be in harmony with such punishments
when we consider that such punishments is for desbelievers, who'm in Imam alGhazali's view will be rare, for most non-Muslims it is assumed just dont believe out of ignorance rather than an active denial, and some of it for Muslims only temporarily, despite them not being able to avail of the vast Mercy of ALlah and endless chances of redemption, then such punishments really dont compare at all to the Love and compassion of God
May Allah [swt] save us all ameen!
T
True Gabriel
Guest
Re: Jesus died and resurrected as God
Because Jesus is God the Son, incarnate in human flesh, because God's physical manifestation on earth, plus all the circumstances of that manifestation, were prophesied time and again in Divine Revelation, and Jesus Christ fulfilled that prophecy right to the letter; because He claimed that He was God (John 10:30, 14:9-10 and numerous other passages), and He never deceived anyone; because He proved His divinity by His impeccable holiness and the flawless perfection of His doctrine; because only God could have performed the miracles He performed miracles such as feeding five thousand people with five loaves of bread and two fish, and, after His death on the Cross, resurrecting Himself from His own tomb; because only God could have, in the brief space of three years, without military conquest, without political power, without writing a single line or traveling more than a few score miles, so profoundly affected the course of human events; because only God can instill in the soul of man the grace and the peace and the assurance of eternal salvation that Jesus Christ instils.
When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live out our faith by doing acts of love (Gal. 6:2).
Even though only God’s grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life (Rom. 2:6–7, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer him. Then he gives us grace to obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to him (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10, Matt. 25:34–40).
Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. "Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but do not do the things I command?" (Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:21–23, 19:16–21).
Jesus was not afraid to die. In fact, He predicted His own death and resurrection
Matthew 16:21 - From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
Luke 18:31,32 - Jesus took the twelve aside and told them, 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles, they will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him, and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.'
John 12:30-32 - This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself". He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
JESUS WILLINGLY WENT TO THE CROSS
Matthew 26:53 - "Do you not think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more that twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
Matthew 26:39 - "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
John 10:18 - "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father".
Because Jesus is God the Son, incarnate in human flesh, because God's physical manifestation on earth, plus all the circumstances of that manifestation, were prophesied time and again in Divine Revelation, and Jesus Christ fulfilled that prophecy right to the letter; because He claimed that He was God (John 10:30, 14:9-10 and numerous other passages), and He never deceived anyone; because He proved His divinity by His impeccable holiness and the flawless perfection of His doctrine; because only God could have performed the miracles He performed miracles such as feeding five thousand people with five loaves of bread and two fish, and, after His death on the Cross, resurrecting Himself from His own tomb; because only God could have, in the brief space of three years, without military conquest, without political power, without writing a single line or traveling more than a few score miles, so profoundly affected the course of human events; because only God can instill in the soul of man the grace and the peace and the assurance of eternal salvation that Jesus Christ instils.
When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live out our faith by doing acts of love (Gal. 6:2).
Even though only God’s grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life (Rom. 2:6–7, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer him. Then he gives us grace to obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to him (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10, Matt. 25:34–40).
Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. "Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but do not do the things I command?" (Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:21–23, 19:16–21).
Jesus was not afraid to die. In fact, He predicted His own death and resurrection
Matthew 16:21 - From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
Luke 18:31,32 - Jesus took the twelve aside and told them, 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles, they will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him, and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.'
John 12:30-32 - This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself". He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
JESUS WILLINGLY WENT TO THE CROSS
Matthew 26:53 - "Do you not think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more that twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
Matthew 26:39 - "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
John 10:18 - "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father".
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
You see Gabriel, I (for one, but am propbaly not alone) find this scriptural line quite beside the point. So what, Christianity can link together its scripture into an argument and Islam can do the same with their's. No big deal, nothing settled. It would help if you focused (as Abdullah did in his responses above) on non-scriptural sources... and brush up those as well. The heading "BIBLICAL WITNESSES TO JESUS' CRUCIFIXION AND DEATH" does not track to what is posted by McDowell since none of the sources (except Matt & John) claim eyewitness status. And Matthew's and John's claims are hotly debated in the world of academia.
You can just use reasoning as a justification (you do not have to string together academicians as Abdullah does). It would make for a much more focused and convincing rebuttal.
You can just use reasoning as a justification (you do not have to string together academicians as Abdullah does). It would make for a much more focused and convincing rebuttal.
L
Lunitik
Guest
@Abdullah
Unless you can encounter the real, surrender to existence, you also are engaged in idol worship. Your idol is your ideal about God, you have invented it because you do not really know what God is. I deeply love all that have encountered truth, all that have surrendered themselves to the real, but I do not take any as higher or lower as you do. Muhammad is not the last, he has said himself he was the first, the body of Muhammad is irrelevant, the deeds during his life are irrelevant. It is because of what he has encountered that he is even remembered at all. You have chosen him, he has become part of your identification, but this is why you will not encounter truth. Ego chooses, the heart merely accepts, the center understands what is so, it does not care about the specifics. Until you drop the identification, there is no chance of truth for you.
I do not even call that God, it is simply thusness - allah comes from al-elah, it means 'that which is worshiped', you create an object but you do not see it because it is not a physical object but a mental object yet there is no difference. When you understand the truth, when you encounter the real, where does worship even come in? You will be grateful, you will be filled with such love, but you will not worship, worships creates the other, there is no other in truth... all is one, and that oneness is what we have called God.
Unless you can encounter the real, surrender to existence, you also are engaged in idol worship. Your idol is your ideal about God, you have invented it because you do not really know what God is. I deeply love all that have encountered truth, all that have surrendered themselves to the real, but I do not take any as higher or lower as you do. Muhammad is not the last, he has said himself he was the first, the body of Muhammad is irrelevant, the deeds during his life are irrelevant. It is because of what he has encountered that he is even remembered at all. You have chosen him, he has become part of your identification, but this is why you will not encounter truth. Ego chooses, the heart merely accepts, the center understands what is so, it does not care about the specifics. Until you drop the identification, there is no chance of truth for you.
I do not even call that God, it is simply thusness - allah comes from al-elah, it means 'that which is worshiped', you create an object but you do not see it because it is not a physical object but a mental object yet there is no difference. When you understand the truth, when you encounter the real, where does worship even come in? You will be grateful, you will be filled with such love, but you will not worship, worships creates the other, there is no other in truth... all is one, and that oneness is what we have called God.
T
True Gabriel
Guest
I am using reasoning that is why I provided links that validate the Bible claim that Jesus Christ died on the cross for this ones are hardly Biblical:
plus Abdulla's responds are all quoting from the Islamic text testifying that Isa did not die. So far I have not seen any none Quranic or religious link or testimony or records from historical records that backs up Muslim claim that Jesus Christ did not die on the cross.
My argument is simple; Isa and Jesus Christ are two different people it is very evident Isa is son of Mary, he is a prophet, did not die on the cross. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, He is God and He died and resurrected.
These are just some Islamic quotes from Abdullah:
This is a sufi saying and not sure if it is a hadith too, and here is an explanation from one of the great sufi masters of this day and age as to what it means:
Shaykh Nuh Keller on Wahdat al-Wujud (Oneness of Being)
…”Belief in Allah” also entails knowing that he has no co-sharer in any of His attributes. For example, the divine attribute of Wujud or Being belongs to Him alone. Nothing is, besides Allah and His attributes and His actions and His rulings. This is what us meant by the Sufi term Wahdat al-Wujud or Oneness of Being. It should be understood, not only to enlighten ignorant critics, but because it is the metaphysical counterpart of ma’rifa or knowledge of Allah that is a prime emphasis of the Shadhili tariqa.
Oneness of Being does not mean that the created universe is God, for God’s Being is necessary (wajid al-wujud) while the universe’s being is merely possible (ja’iz al-wujud), that is, subject to nonbeing, beginning, and ending, and it is impossible that one of these two orders of being could in an sense be the other; but rather, the created universe’s act of being is derived from and subsumed by the divine act of creation, from which it has no ontic independence, and hence is only through the being of its Creator, the one true Being.
So Wahdat al-Wujud or Oneness of Being entails that nothing exists except Allah, His attributes, His actions, and His rulings, while created being, as manifest to us, cannot be identified with His entity or attributes but only with His actions and rulings: the world, as it were, is pure act, while Allah is pure Being. In short, our metaphysic is not pantheism, because the world is not Allah. Spinoza’s definition in the Ethica of God as “simple substance” (pantheism properly speaking), has nothing to do with the experience of those who possess ma’rifa. Rather, the world’s existence is through Allah, in Arabic bi Llah, the point under the Arabic letter ba’ being both a point of ontic connection ad a point of demarcation.
Shaykh Nuh Keller Britishmisk's Blog
L
Lunitik
Guest
so basically the fakes have taken that saying and got people worshipping the creation!!!
isn't it time you started learning from real sufi's Luni?
I can assure you this "great Sufi" is not a Sufi at all, perhaps he is engaged with Sufism but that is not the same thing. It is perfectly right to say no one can share the attributes of God, and yet God has no attributes. God is when you are not, when you surrender everything you are so that you are not. Even to say this man is great is a misnomer, if you experience oneness you understand the fallacy of rank and comparison. Your mind will dispute to the ends of the world, it is identified with your belief system, but I tell you the very belief is the barrier to truth. You will cling to what mind has decided, and this keeps mind alive, mind is the true satan though, the true adversary of truth.
You can encounter what Muhammad encountered, it is the peak of all life, but your very belief that it is impossible ensures you will never encounter it. If you die never having surrendered utterly, you will have wasted your life. If you gain a trillion dollars, if you rule half the world, nothing will fulfill like encountering truth. You will forever chase your dreams, and yet in death everything you achieved is lost. Do not maintain your insistence on separation, if you can utterly drop it you realize you were never separate in the first place you just befooled yourself.
THAT is immortal life, realizing you were never alive as something distinct; THAT is immortal life, realizing you can never die. This body will drop as all phenomenon, it is subject to change and eventual decay, but you can realize you are not the body, you are not the mind. What is real? That is what is called Allah.