Misconceptions about Islam

[Snoopy]

we're not dead, at least not enough to satisfy islamist groups. however, i am not kidding myself that the "ownership" argument plays with anyone except us and nutty christians, who have questionable ulterior motives in any case - the Torah may be the title deeds, but its provenance is hardly enforceable in a human court.
bananabrain

sorry, I wasn't trying to kill anyone off; I was merely regressing the logic backwards chronologically to pre history when all humans would be considered pagan.

s.

 

[Muslimwoman]

will muslim get the fek out of the west then ?

And where would you like me to go?

this is a good point and well made, but what worries me is not the moderate muslims but the 13% of them in the UK that support violent action against me personally

I agree, they are a worry for everyone and I wouldn't want anyone in my family taught their version of Islam. We have to do something about them and after watching the Dispatches program it is high time religious schools are subject to the same laws as state schools ... of course we brought this on ourselves by allowing such things in the first place.

However, do you think those 13% can breed at such a rate to take over the West and bring in sharia law or would you agree that view is just ignorant scaremongering?

"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps."

serious question .. how many murders or terrorist attacks have Palestinians living outside of Palestine committed against Jews? Have tried googling but not sure what to type in as everything will refer to Israel.

the huge number of converts is a myth, most convert for marriage reasons.

Are you going to provide a source for that sweeping statement?

So did you convert for marriage?

I am having dinner tomorrow night with a number of converts ... I am Western and was Muslim for 3 years before I married a Muslim. My friend Zahara, who is white British and not married. A couple who are both white British and both converted together 17 years ago. And a young man, white British, who is not married. Also a white Christian woman who is married to a Muslim. There is a member who converted when she married but she never turns up and has no interest in learning about Islam.

Given that the "born Muslim" population in my community amounts to less than 30 adults I would call that quite a large percentage of converts.

People who convert just to marry are not Muslims, their shahada is invalid. You can't become Muslim just because you want to bump uglies with a Muslim, it has to come from the heart.

i disagree, there are plenty of unemployed English peopple.

Indeed there are and yet my husband found a job in a hotel within 6 weeks of coming to the UK and started work within 3 days because they simply couldn't get anyone to take the jobs because they are minimum wage and of course they can get more money on the dole ... strange isn't it.

well i would dispute those stats, when i was a muslim there hardly any converts.

And I would dispute your knowledge about Islam and Muslim societies as my experiences are totally different AND I'm a convert and socialise with converts

you said that muslims wanted the west out of there lands, so by that logic muslims should not be in western lands, as for what I would do personally its not my call really. but if muslims are calling for westerners to get out their lands while living the west that seems really hypocritical.

So you don't see any difference between Muslims living, working and paying taxes in our country and our soldiers blowing the sh*t out of Iraq or Afghanistan?

in UK pretty much allows anyone in, plus some immigrant groups use marriage as a means to immigration.

This is very true, we have allowed radical groups in ... hell we have even financed some of them. Our border controls are our responsibility and it is up to us to ensure we know who we are letting into the country. If that person causes harm, breaks the law or teaches hatred then it is our responsibility to ensure he/she does not get a new visa abd is sent back to their own country .... WE imported this problem and it's up to us to now sort it out. Given that we haven't a clue where 60,000 immigrants are at the moment it's going to be a hard slog

as i understood it there was a special tax for Hindu's, but I will need to find a source for that.

Have searched for an hour and can't find anything, look forward to reading your source.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]

 

[farhan]

so, according to you, israel is the antichrist? do you actually believe this jew-hating nonsense?

See, I dont write history, I dont write the future either. I dont write these things, neither do I make them happen. There is a hadith which says the final battle between Jesus & Dajjal will be fought across River Jordan, Dajjal's army will be on the western side, and Jesus' Army on Eastern side. The western side is right now West Bank, and is slowly becoming Israel. Thats the "geographical location" hadith is talking about. Israel is being made there by Israelis, not me. Go ask Natenyahu why is he allowing the fulfillment of Muhammad's prophecy, and making me look like a jew hater.

this is such an idiotic, cloth-headed, self-defeating, blame-everyone-else point of view. no society can exist if it seals itself off from the "evil" of the rest of the world. just ask the north koreans. now take a look at the list of patents filed and books published in the islamic world compared to elsewhere. you can't blame that on the jews or the americans, you know. i presume "the muslims" also don't want academic / technology collaboration, ex-pat workers, grant money, foreign aid, NGOs, or tourism then? i'd like to see how anyone builds a railway system in the middle east or any other infrastructure without "the west". there are plenty of brilliant muslim scientists - but they have mostly emigrated, can't think why.

The way you create stuff from my words is awesome. What was the point being answered? "According to their stated goal Muslims want to conquer Europe and impose Sharia" . To which I said "They (the Islamists, radical muslims, evil people, boogiemen etc) dont want that, they just want their lands free from the west". I dont know if its my English thats bad or yours. Free from the west means free from colonization, economic, political and cultural. Not free from railroads, technology and tourism.

hamas are the palestinian branch of the "ikhwan", as you know very well - there's little ideological difference. but are you saying that the groups you quote are "the" only muslims, then? is there no difference between what hizbullah want and what the taleban want and what the ihkwan want? and "everybody" else? from my point of view, the only thing that i think the groups you quoted can all agree on is that they want me and all my family dead - not "zionists", not "israelis" - jews.

Again, you have got an over active imagination. What was I replying to? The stated goal of badguys. Ikhwan want "some kind" of Islamic govt. Taliban (their stated goal ie) want US out of their country. Hamas & Hizbullah are a reaction to Israel, not Jews. Jews have existed for 3 milleneums, Hamas/Hizbullah and Israel for more or less half a century, do you see the similarity between the age of Israel and Hamas/Hizbullah? Are you sure these people want to kill Jews living in Russia or China or India or England or USA or Brazil. How many Hamas/Hizbullah people have killed Jews outside the Israel/Palestine territory?

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

This is a hadith, AFAIK it talks specifically about a war that will be fought in the Israel/Palestine region (The very same River Jordan), between Dajjal and Jesus. Hadith uses the word Jews, since the word "Zionist" was nonexistent back then. But its obvious what this hadith is saying when it says "Jews to the west of River Jordan".

"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps."

"Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people."

"the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews."

Again I am sure you are missing something here, deliberately. Are you sure its talking about Jews everywhere all over the planet? or Just the Jews that are bugging them? During Soviet Invasion, the word "Russian" was equivalent of enemy in Afghanistan. All the CIA/Mujahideen propaganda used the words "Russian this" and "Russian that", & not "only those Russians who have attacked us". And yet, they were interested in killing Russians on Afghan land, not those living in Russia. I guess it should be pretty obvious to you that their issues are with Jews in Israel/Palestine territory.

which is, apparently, more than i can say for you.

You never come without your cheapshots

you're denying it to the jewish people, aren't you? and what do you mean by "land"? the C19th nation states drawn up by the europeans? and does that include "al-andalus", in your view? and are you proposing reuniting india and pakistan, then? or the former ottoman empire?

Go back to what I said before. People's right, people include all people. DO Palestinians want their land to be given to Jews? No. DO Spanish people want their land to be given to Morrocans? No. DO Indians & Pakistanis want their lands reunited? NO. Do Bulgarians, Albanians and Arabs want to be a part of Turkey? No.

Do Jordanians, Syrians & Iraqis want to reunite their countries forming something like EU? May be. Do Turkmens & Uzbeks want their land reunited? May be. If they want it, let them have it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so what are your views on the arab and muslim states that kicked out their jews, the results of which makes up half the israeli population - iraq (where my family are from), iran, egypt, algeria, tunisia, syria, lebanon, etc? can these people go back? will they be compensated for the assets they lost, in the way the palestinians are expecting to be compensated?

It was wrong. If Palestinians are compensated, so should they. But why were they kicked out? I have read everything from "Arabs hated Jews" to "as a retaliation of Palestinians being kicked out" to "the mobs were ran by undercover zionists". I have got no way to prove or refute anything.

you haven't answered any of my other questions, but then again this may be because you consider me to be the "antichrist".

What can I say? Are you white/red skinned, with curly hair, one bulging eye and k - f - r written on your forehead? If thats the case than you are most probably the antichrist. You are too powerfull for me, and so I'll keep distance. There will be an olive skinned guy, with water dropping from his wavy long hair. He is Jesus. He will be fighting you, not me. And the final battle will be across River Jordan.

AS before, I dont write these things, I dont make them happen. If its so written, so shall it be.

 

[Quahom1]

Rome (RUM in arabic) was used for both Roman and Byzantine empires. Infact the word rum was also used for most of the anatolian territories ruled by Byzantine Empire. Which gives us the name Jalaluddin Rumi, who lived most of his life in Konya not Rome, and was called Rumi for this reason.

Anyways there are hundreds of prophecies related to Muhammad. There is one hadith where he says that Constantinople will be conquered before Rome (Romiyya in arabic) by Muslims. Iran will be conquered. Barefoot arab shepherds will compete each other in making tall buildings (which is now happening in Dubai). Anitchrist will be on the western side of Jordan River (Now West Bank, slowly becoming Israel) and Jesus on eastern side. There are many prophecies about Khurasani (Afghanistan) people helping Jesus etc, and many more.

Thank you for the information and clarifying a couple of things.

v/r

Q

 

[c0de]

See, I dont write history, I dont write the future either. I dont write these things, neither do I make them happen. There is a hadith which says the final battle between Jesus & Dajjal will be fought across River Jordan, Dajjal's army will be on the western side, and Jesus' Army on Eastern side. The western side is right now West Bank, and is slowly becoming Israel. Thats the "geographical location" hadith is talking about. Israel is being made there by Israelis, not me. Go ask Natenyahu why is he allowing the fulfillment of Muhammad's prophecy, and making me look like a jew hater.
The way you create stuff from my words is awesome. What was the point being answered? "According to their stated goal Muslims want to conquer Europe and impose Sharia" . To which I said "They (the Islamists, radical muslims, evil people, boogiemen etc) dont want that, they just want their lands free from the west". I dont know if its my English thats bad or yours. Free from the west means free from colonization, economic, political and cultural. Not free from railroads, technology and tourism.

Again, you have got an over active imagination. What was I replying to? The stated goal of badguys. Ikhwan want "some kind" of Islamic govt. Taliban (their stated goal ie) want US out of their country. Hamas & Hizbullah are a reaction to Israel, not Jews. Jews have existed for 3 milleneums, Hamas/Hizbullah and Israel for more or less half a century, do you see the similarity between the age of Israel and Hamas/Hizbullah? Are you sure these people want to kill Jews living in Russia or China or India or England or USA or Brazil. How many Hamas/Hizbullah people have killed Jews outside the Israel/Palestine territory?

This is a hadith, AFAIK it talks specifically about a war that will be fought in the Israel/Palestine region (The very same River Jordan), between Dajjal and Jesus. Hadith uses the word Jews, since the word "Zionist" was nonexistent back then. But its obvious what this hadith is saying when it says "Jews to the west of River Jordan".

Again I am sure you are missing something here, deliberately. Are you sure its talking about Jews everywhere all over the planet? or Just the Jews that are bugging them? During Soviet Invasion, the word "Russian" was equivalent of enemy in Afghanistan. All the CIA/Mujahideen propaganda used the words "Russian this" and "Russian that", & not "only those Russians who have attacked us". And yet, they were interested in killing Russians on Afghan land, not those living in Russia. I guess it should be pretty obvious to you that their issues are with Jews in Israel/Palestine territory.
You never come without your cheapshots

Do Jordanians, Syrians & Iraqis want to reunite their countries forming something like EU? May be. Do Turkmens & Uzbeks want their land reunited? May be. If they want it, let them have it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What can I say? Are you white/red skinned, with curly hair, one bulging eye and k - f - r written on your forehead? If thats the case than you are most probably the antichrist. You are too powerfull for me, and so I'll keep distance. There will be an olive skinned guy, with water dropping from his wavy long hair. He is Jesus. He will be fighting you, not me. And the final battle will be across River Jordan.

AS before, I dont write these things, I dont make them happen. If its so written, so shall it be.

... This is what happens when the people start taking the hadith seriously... They get all "Book of Revelations" like.

Farhan, if this is what you actually believe, then I pity you.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

And where would you like me to go?

i never said i wanted you to go anywhere, you should try reading this read.

I agree, they are a worry for everyone and I wouldn't want anyone in my family taught their version of Islam. We have to do something about them and after watching the Dispatches program it is high time religious schools are subject to the same laws as state schools ... of course we brought this on ourselves by allowing such things in the first place.

beating children for getting things wrong is fairly traditional in Pakistan, lots of British Muslims are from Pakistan originally.

However, do you think those 13% can breed at such a rate to take over the West and bring in sharia law or would you agree that view is just ignorant scaremongering?

no comment

serious question .. how many murders or terrorist attacks have Palestinians living outside of Palestine committed against Jews? Have tried googling but not sure what to type in as everything will refer to Israel.

several that I can recall.

Are you going to provide a source for that sweeping statement?

Jizya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Though jizya was mandated specifically for other monotheistic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism), under the Maliki school of Fiqh jizya was extended to all non-Muslims.[53] Thus some Muslim rulers also collected jizya from Hindus and Sikhs under their rule. The collection of the tax was sometimes the duty of the elders of those communities, but often it was collected directly from individuals, in accordance with specific payment rituals described in the writings of Muslim jurists.[citation needed]
In return for the tax, those who paid the jizya were permitted to keep their non-Muslim religion. Their economic and political security was guaranteed by the Islamic state, provided that they accepted Islamic control.[54] They could not serve in the military or bear arms, but their community was considered to be under the protection of the Muslim state, subject to their meeting certain conditions. If someone refused to pay the jizya, he could be imprisoned.[55] The jizya was used for paying the salaries of state servants, pensions and on charities. In some instances, however, it ended up in "private" treasuries.[6]

So did you convert for marriage?

yes that was part of it.

I am having dinner tomorrow night with a number of converts ... I am Western and was Muslim for 3 years before I married a Muslim. My friend Zahara, who is white British and not married. A couple who are both white British and both converted together 17 years ago. And a young man, white British, who is not married. Also a white Christian woman who is married to a Muslim. There is a member who converted when she married but she never turns up and has no interest in learning about Islam.

Given that the "born Muslim" population in my community amounts to less than 30 adults I would call that quite a large percentage of converts.

People who convert just to marry are not Muslims, their shahada is invalid. You can't become Muslim just because you want to bump uglies with a Muslim, it has to come from the heart.

bump uglies, what a revolting phrase for falling in love

I meant it when I said it, but I am glad that you feel that way as perhaps I wont one day be killed for apostating from islam

Indeed there are and yet my husband found a job in a hotel within 6 weeks of coming to the UK and started work within 3 days because they simply couldn't get anyone to take the jobs because they are minimum wage and of course they can get more money on the dole ... strange isn't it.

And I would dispute your knowledge about Islam and Muslim societies as my experiences are totally different AND I'm a convert and socialise with converts

my experience is indeed limited and i have never said otherwise,

So you don't see any difference between Muslims living, working and paying taxes in our country and our soldiers blowing the sh*t out of Iraq or Afghanistan?

i never said that, but there are muslims in this county plotting to masacre civivlian in the name of allah.


This is very true, we have allowed radical groups in ... hell we have even financed some of them. Our border controls are our responsibility and it is up to us to ensure we know who we are letting into the country. If that person causes harm, breaks the law or teaches hatred then it is our responsibility to ensure he/she does not get a new visa abd is sent back to their own country .... WE imported this problem and it's up to us to now sort it out. Given that we haven't a clue where 60,000 immigrants are at the moment it's going to be a hard slog



Have searched for an hour and can't find anything, look forward to reading your source.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][/FONT][/QUOTE]

 

[c0de]

beating children for getting things wrong is fairly traditional in Pakistan, lots of British Muslims are from Pakistan originally.

Most fathers who beat their kids in Pakistan aren't drunk when they do it (and usually do it for a valid reason) unlike many in non-Muslim nations, where the child is unable to make any sense of why he's getting his ass kicked by a drunk father.

When I was a kid and got beat (which was very rare) I always knew what it was for. And believe me, when I look back at what kind of brat I was, I myself would beat the hell out of me.

i never said that, but there are muslims in this county plotting to masacre civivlian in the name of allah.

yea and most of them are like those in portrayed in the movie Four Lions or the dumbf*ck "shoebomber" who didn't even know you can't detonate c4 with a lighter. i doubt they pose any real threat to anyone other their selves.

 

[Muslimwoman]

i never said i wanted you to go anywhere, you should try reading this read.

This is what you said: "will muslim get the fek out of the west then ?"

The implication was that if the West withdraw it's troops from the Middle East will Muslims get the "fek" out of the West.

So as a white, British Muslim I ask again, where would you like me to go?

I have never heard Arabs calling for all Westerners to leave the Middle East, only for our forces to leave there.

beating children for getting things wrong is fairly traditional in Pakistan, lots of British Muslims are from Pakistan originally.

beating children for doing things wrong has always been fairly typical of most countries. When I was at school, both in Germany and in the UK, we were spanked, caned and our palms thrashed with a ruler (it was called 6 of the best) and my latin teacher used to throw the board rubber at our head if we mispronounced words ... sound familiar?

Corporal punishment in state schools was only banned in the UK in 1998

So it seems we are not as advanced in civilisation as you would like to think.

no comment

Interesting

several that I can recall.

Excellent, can you provide sources or names I can look up please.

This is the Jewish virtual library list of American victims of Mideast Terror attacks (given Arab feeling toward the US I thought it the most obvious one to look up) ...can you find a single incident that is carried out outside of the middle east, is not politically motivated or directly linked to Israel or American support for Israel ... therefore confirming the assertion that Palestinians want to exterminate all jews everywhere in the world?

American Victims of Mideast Terrorist Attacks

Jizya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you for the link but I am perfectly aware of what jizya is. I asked you to provide a source, after Farhan had told you Muslims taxed everyone, for your assertion that Hindu's specifically had to pay a "special tax". If there is no source and you were mistken that's fine but in that case I hope you will not keep repeating such misconceptions about Islam.

yes that was part of it.

Thank you for that, I can now see better where you are coming from.

bump uglies, what a revolting phrase for falling in love

Indeed it is revolting but expresses very well the vast majority of "conversion for marriage" relationships I have encountered, it rarely has anything to do with love or desire to convert and much to do with the reqirement to be married in order to have sex ... just look up orfi marriages. Hence the women choose to leave Islam as soon as the relationship begins to break down.

Women in these situations usually come at the subject with pre-conceived ideas about Islam and find these are confirmed by websites and often by their husbands cultural norms ... this is a far cry from an open minded study of the faith.

I meant it when I said it, but I am glad that you feel that way as perhaps I wont one day be killed for apostating from islam

I have no desire to harm anyone who leaves Islam ... unless of course you declare war on me and try to invade my house, then I would certainly defend myself and my property.

my experience is indeed limited and i have never said otherwise,

I'm sorry but you have said a number of times that you used to be Muslim so you know what Islam teaches but now I understand your experience of Islam I am better eqipped to answer your concerns.

i never said that, but there are muslims in this county plotting to masacre civivlian in the name of allah.

Indeed there are and there are white supremists in this country plotting and radical christians and many other groups. Indeed the Islamic radicals are the most dire threat at the moment but turning that into "will the Muslims get the fek out of the west" is simply racist and starting on the road that the radicals started on.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

This is what you said: "will muslim get the fek out of the west then ?"

The implication was that if the West withdraw it's troops from the Middle East will Muslims get the "fek" out of the West.

So as a white, British Muslim I ask again, where would you like me to go?

that was a response to farhan, where he just said the west, no distinction was made between military and civilian

if you are going to jump in and start replying to my replys to farhan, you should really read the whole conversation, other you are simply getting wrong end of the stick.

I have never heard Arabs calling for all Westerners to leave the Middle East, only for our forces to leave there.

again no distiniction was made,

beating children for doing things wrong has always been fairly typical of most countries. When I was at school, both in Germany and in the UK, we were spanked, caned and our palms thrashed with a ruler (it was called 6 of the best) and my latin teacher used to throw the board rubber at our head if we mispronounced words ... sound familiar?

Corporal punishment in state schools was only banned in the UK in 1998


So it seems we are not as advanced in civilisation as you would like to think.

i never said that we were advanced did i

i merely pointed out that beating children is a traditional method of teaching in Pakistan.

Excellent, can you provide sources or names I can look up please.

no i cant, just stuff i can remember, try an internet search

This is the Jewish virtual library list of American victims of Mideast Terror attacks (given Arab feeling toward the US I thought it the most obvious one to look up) ...can you find a single incident that is carried out outside of the middle east, is not politically motivated or directly linked to Israel or American support for Israel ... therefore confirming the assertion that Palestinians want to exterminate all jews everywhere in the world?

American Victims of Mideast Terrorist Attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Thank you for the link but I am perfectly aware of what jizya is. I asked you to provide a source, after Farhan had told you Muslims taxed everyone, for your assertion that Hindu's specifically had to pay a "special tax". If there is no source and you were mistken that's fine but in that case I hope you will not keep repeating such misconceptions about Islam.

i already told farhan it was something i saw on tv, the above source seems pretty good to, taxing people so they can keep their religion ! what a revolting practice.

do you have a source that you can reference for everything you have seen and heard ?

Thank you for that, I can now see better where you are coming from.

Indeed it is revolting but expresses very well the vast majority of "conversion for marriage" relationships I have encountered, it rarely has anything to do with love or desire to convert and much to do with the reqirement to be married in order to have sex ... just look up orfi marriages. Hence the women choose to leave Islam as soon as the relationship begins to break down.

Women in these situations usually come at the subject with pre-conceived ideas about Islam and find these are confirmed by websites and often by their husbands cultural norms ... this is a far cry from an open minded study of the faith.

no one needs to get married to have sex not in the uk anyway, in the Muslim lands maybe women do, the men just bugger each other until they find a wife.

I have no desire to harm anyone who leaves Islam ... unless of course you declare war on me and try to invade my house, then I would certainly defend myself and my property.

lol

I'm sorry but you have said a number of times that you used to be Muslim so you know what Islam teaches but now I understand your experience of Islam I am better eqipped to answer your concerns.

great

Indeed there are and there are white supremists in this country plotting and radical christians and many other groups. Indeed the Islamic radicals are the most dire threat at the moment but turning that into "will the Muslims get the fek out of the west" is simply racist and starting on the road that the radicals started on.

lol, that was what farhan said. will the west get the fek out of muslim lands. so i asked if muslims would get the fek out of the west, are you saying farhan is radical.

i am not aware of Christians killing civilians in the name of Jesus,

plus islam is not even a race.

 

[bob x]

Excellent, can you provide sources or names I can look up please.

I don't know a comprehensive list, but Munich Olympics, Entebbe Airport, Rome Airport, Buenos Aires Cultural Center, and Istanbul Consulate are some of the more notorious. Or, if you want to go back to the origins, the training of the Bosnian and Algerian Waffen SS by Palestinian cadres.

 

[iBrian]

beating children for doing things wrong has always been fairly typical of most countries. When I was at school, both in Germany and in the UK, we were spanked, caned and our palms thrashed with a ruler (it was called 6 of the best) and my latin teacher used to throw the board rubber at our head if we mispronounced words ... sound familiar?

Corporal punishment in state schools was only banned in the UK in 1998

So it seems we are not as advanced in civilisation as you would like to think.

Quite true - Western democracies do an awful lot of pontificating on what we feel we are doing right *now*, forgetting that we've only been doing so in our most recent history.

 

[Muslimwoman]

that was a response to farhan, where he just said the west, no distinction was made between military and civilian

again no distiniction was made,

It matters not whether Farhan meant all Westerners or Western governments and armies.

Let us assume Farhan meant all Westerners should leave Pakistan and the Middle East, they all have countries to go back to but where is it you would like me to get the fek out to?

Clearly I am trying to point out your racist assertion that all Muslims come from somewhere else is simply incorrect.

i never said that we were advanced did i

i merely pointed out that beating children is a traditional method of teaching in Pakistan.

and I merely pointed out that beating children was a traditional method of teaching in Britain until just over a decade ago.

no i cant, just stuff i can remember, try an internet search

My point was if it's just "stuff you can remember" then wouldn't it be prudent to look it up and confim if your memory is correct before making sweeping statements about "stuff"?

taxing people so they can keep their religion ! what a revolting practice.

I would agree that taxing people just to keep their religion would be revolting. However, as this is not what jizya is about it might be better to understand it before claiming it to be revolting.

Bear in mind that Muslims cannot be involved with usury, alcohol, pork, etc but non-Muslims have no such restrictions, so tax money collected from non-muslims who were involved with usury could not be used to feed the Muslim poor or educate Muslim children.

"The Jizya or poll tax is a personal tax levied on non-Moslems in a Moslem State, and as such it resembles the Zakat (Alms Tax) which is levied on Moslem citizens by the Moslem State. The poll tax is levied so that all the capable non-Moslem citizens of the State can contribute, each from his own money, to the general welfare of the State, and that in return for this, they can enjoy their rights as nationals of this State, including compensation from the Moslem Exchecquer when they are in need.

Valour and mercy are not forgotten here, as the poll tax is not collected from the weak and poor. In his message to the people of Hira, Khaled Ibn Al-Walid says, "When a person is too old to work or suffers a handicap, or when he falls into poverty, he is free from the dues of the pull tax; his sustenance is provided by the Moslem Exchequer." In his book "Al-Kharaj," Abu Yusuf says, "No Jizya is due on females or young infants."

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 475:
Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun Al-Audi:
I saw 'Umar bin Al-Khattab (when he was stabbed) saying, "O 'Abdullah bin 'Umar! Go to the mother of the believers Aisha and say, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sends his greetings to you,' and request her to allow me to be buried with my companions." (So, Ibn 'Umar conveyed the message to 'Aisha.) She said, "I had the idea of having this place for myself but today I prefer him ('Umar) to myself (and allow him to be buried there)." When 'Abdullah bin 'Umar returned, 'Umar asked him, "What (news) do you have?" He replied, "O chief of the believers! She has allowed you (to be buried there)." On that 'Umar said, "Nothing was more important to me than to be buried in that (sacred) place. So, when I expire, carry me there and pay my greetings to her ('Aisha ) and say, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab asks permission; and if she gives permission, then bury me (there) and if she does not, then take me to the grave-yard of the Muslims. I do not think any person has more right for the caliphate than those with whom Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) was always pleased till his death. And whoever is chosen by the people after me will be the caliph, and you people must listen to him and obey him," and then he mentioned the name of 'Uthman, 'Ali, Talha, Az-Zubair, 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf and Sad bin Abi Waqqas.
By this time a young man from Ansar came and said, "O chief of the believers! Be happy with Allah's glad tidings. The grade which you have in Islam is known to you, then you became the caliph and you ruled with justice and then you have been awarded martyrdom after all this." 'Umar replied, "O son of my brother! Would that all that privileges will counterbalance (my short comings), so that I neither lose nor gain anything. I recommend my successor to be good to the early emigrants and realize their rights and to protect their honor and sacred things. And I also recommend him to be good to the Ansar who before them, had homes (in Medina) and had adopted the Faith. He should accept the good of the righteous among them and should excuse their wrongdoers.I recommend him to abide by the rules and regulations concerning the Dhimmis (protectees) of Allah and His Apostle, to fulfill their contracts completely and fight for them and not to tax (overburden) them beyond their capabilities."

I fully accept that this tax at times throughout Islamic history has been misapplied and non-Muslims abused by certain rulers but the intention of the tax was about protection, not having to do "national service" and the upkeep of the state they lived in ... as immigrants to the UK have to pay taxes to the state.

do you have a source that you can reference for everything you have seen and heard ?

Indeed no but if I am going to state there was a special Christian tax specifically for Buddhists I would at least check it out before posting such an assertion.

no one needs to get married to have sex not in the uk anyway, in the Muslim lands maybe women do, the men just bugger each other until they find a wife.

Oh that old chestnut ... you're doing well at the sweeping bigotted statements.

You are correct, in the UK people do not have to be married to have sex but if a non-Muslim woman meets a practicing Muslim, who believes in his faith, then he would want her to be a practicing Christian or Jew or wishing to convert to Islam so they could marry and remain within the bounds of his faith.

i am not aware of Christians killing civilians in the name of Jesus,

I suggest you read the link below .. this is just a quick sample of it's content and you can check the credentials of the author (a British Muslim academic at Oxford):

A succession of academic studies has meticulously documented the wartime activities of the Christian clergy, and particularly the bishops who proudly sat in the front row of the rebel Serbian ‘parliament’ whenever it assembled in its pirate capital of Pale. In the West, these studies have not usually been the work of Muslim scholars. [10] One pioneering example has been the book of Michael Sells: The Bridge Betrayed: religion and genocide in Bosnia . Sells is a Quaker, who is currently professor of religion at Haverford College in Pennsylvania. [11] Here is a paragraph from the conclusion of his book:

The violence in Bosnia was a religious genocide in several senses: the people destroyed were chosen on the basis of their religious identity; those carrying out the killings acted with the blessing and support of Christian church leaders; the violence was grounded in a religious mythology that characterized the targeted people as race traitors and the extermination of them as a sacred act. [12]
​

Njegos is the Serbian Shakespeare; his poem was required reading in all schools in prewar Yugoslavia . Even the reformist maverick Milovan Djilas praised this ‘poet of massacres.’ One of his most committed readers has been Radovan Karadzic himself, who although not a priest, loves to wear crosses, and strongly identifies himself with the heroic bishop of the story. His favourite self-image is that of itinerant bard, fiddling at a gusle - a traditional Bosnian instrument - and singing with his soldiers. These sessions, as regularly broadcast on Republika Srpska TV during the war, begin with the passing round of an alcoholic drink, and all the soldiers make the sign of the cross before beginning with the words:



Serb brothers, wherever you are,
with the help of Almighty God,
For the sake of the Cross and the Christian faith,
I call you to join the battle of Kosovo. [69]

Abdal-Hakim Murad - The Churches and the Bosnian war

plus islam is not even a race.

Oh well in that case it's perfectly ok to foster bigotted hatred and tell ridiculous lies about them .... ho hum.

 

[iBrian]

i am not aware of Christians killing civilians in the name of Jesus,

Crikey, where do you want to start with this one??

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Crikey, where do you want to start with this one??

go on then brian educate me on this, perhaps you should start a new thread though.

 

[iBrian]

Alexandrian riots, Cathars, Crusades, Witchhunts, the pattern of war into modern times. Those are my immediate thoughts.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Alexandrian riots, Cathars, Crusades, Witchhunts, the pattern of war into modern times. Those are my immediate thoughts.

i dont really know much about any of those, but things to consider.

were they following the teachings of Jesus ?

were they killing in the name of Jesus ?

and were they Christians ?

I would say the answer to first two is no, as for the last point that harder to say really as there are those who dont consider the catholic church to be christian.

perhaps you could make this a new thread ?

 

[c0de]

were they killing in the name of Jesus ?

and were they Christians ?

I'd like to introduce you to a little chapter in the history of the world known as "THE SPANISH INQUISITION"

There are many others, but start with this one.

 

[iBrian]

i dont really know much about any of those, but things to consider.

were they following the teachings of Jesus ?

were they killing in the name of Jesus ?

and were they Christians ?

I would say the answer to first two is no, as for the last point that harder to say really as there are those who dont consider the catholic church to be christian.

perhaps you could make this a new thread ?

No problem - you're welcome to start one to address any particular issue, and I'll be happy to try and ensure a constructive contribution where possible.

 

[enlightenment]

So let us begin. Rather than me posting issues, why don't we start by you posting issues you feel show Islam in a bad light and I will attempt to respond or look up information on the subject.

While you do that I will write some issues out which I am aware of often misunderstood.

Hi,

Okay, I will play 'Devils Advocate' here, and play the game.

There seems to be a feeling among many British people that there is a concentrated effort to Islamify the UK, with a view to making up the bulk of the population, at least in certain towns and cities. This would be with a view to the long term goal of extending the power that the Sharia courts here already have, as well as introducing a more Islamic culture.

This perception gives fuel to the BNP, and now, even the Tories, to make veiled (or not so veiled) attacks on British Muslims, in their speaking.

However, do you feel there is any merit in saying that Muslims wish to fan out as far across the Western world as possible, in an effort to effectively 'Islamify' said nation?

After all, this would be entirely in keeping how other religions have become the dominant religion, the dominant culture.

Christianity is as alien to this island as Islam is, in terms of the geographical location of it's origins.

The native religions of these Islands would not have originally been Christianty, so it was imported here.

With Islam being the fastest growing religion in the world, is there just cause to feel that Muslims wish to (at least in part) Islamify the UK, and perhaps use pressure to see that given laws are favourable to them?

 

[Muslimwoman]

I don't know a comprehensive list, but Munich Olympics, Entebbe Airport, Rome Airport, Buenos Aires Cultural Center, and Istanbul Consulate are some of the more notorious.

I am not defending any of the above terrorist actions, I simply want to establish whether these attacks were against Israeli's or Jews as worldwide nation of people:

Munich Olymipcs - 11 members of the Isaeli Olymic team kidnapped and murdered.

Entebbe Airport - hijacked plane going from Israel to Paris.

Rome Airport - At 08:15 GMT, four gunmen walked to the shared ticket counter for Israel's El Al Airlines. Responsibility for the two attacks was later claimed by the Abu Nidal Organization (ANO) in retaliation for Operation Wooden Leg, the Israeli bombing of PLO headquarters in Tunis on October 1, 1985

Buenos Aires Cultural Centre - The AMIA bombing was an attack on the Argentine Israelite Mutual Association building

Istanbul Consulate - not sure if you mean 2003 or 2008 bombings or both .. the 2003 bombings were against a number of targets including Bet Israel and Neve Shalom synagogues, US and UK Consulates and HSBC bank HQ. Al-Q seems to have links to the 2008 attack on the US Consulate (the stated enemy of Al-Q for backing Israel against Palestine).

With the exception of the synagogues, which I agree were civilian, non-political targets can we see a common thread in there anywhere?

Or, if you want to go back to the origins, the training of the Bosnian and Algerian Waffen SS by Palestinian cadres.

Husseini would have made a pact with satan himself if it meant stopping immigration and the creation of a "Jewish National Home" in Palestine. What's that saying ... my enemies enemy is my friend?!

Of course Husseini was a military officer in the Ottoman military during WWI. He then set his sights on political life and assassinated most of his Arab opponents in Palestine. He also grew to hate the British, so in Hitler he found the perfect ally .. someone who promised to defeat the British, create an independent Muslim state in the Balkans and stoop Jewish immigration to Palestine.

However none of this suggests to me that the Palestinians want to exterminate all Jews everywhere but rather want to stop the creation of Israel and then fight the existance of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_synagogues_in_Turkey#Istanbul