morality within evolution

alexa said:
I hope I didn't offend you, lunamoth. The title bugs me as mine has changed three times and I didn't do anything for it. Maybe this is something from the set-up.:confused:
Hi Alexa,

No offense taken! Just wish I could be as creative and witty as the other folks on this forum. :)
 
Hi Lunamoth,

Please don't be so hard with yourself. I personally appreciate our conversations. Maybe we cannot understand each other with some terms, but you have to take in consideration I'm a French speaker and my mother tongue is Romanian. So sometimes it's difficult for me to find my words, especially when I'm tired. This doesn't mean we cannot reach the same ground of understanding. I can feel you are sincere and you have a good heart from your posts. I really appreciate it.
So, please feel free to nudge me, whenever you feel it's necessary ! ;) I know on the other side is a friend speaking.

Have a nice week-end,

Alexa :)
 
Kindest Regards, Lunamoth!

Thank you for your post! I apologize for the delay in responding, but I am running out of thoughts to continue this with. :)

lunamoth said:
As children get older they are more able to delay gratification, and to see the benefits of ensuring that everyone is taken care of. I've read before that the ability to delay gratification is one of the largest indicators of "emotional intelligence," which relates to successfulness in life.

I think that this type of morality is taught, nurture above nature. I also believe that this potential for compassion/love is divine, neither nurture nor nature (say that three times fast), but affected by both.
OK, I can see this.

The only new material I stumbled on recently pertained to a Jesuit Monk whose name I couldn't remember. This morning, I remembered: Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.

Interesting guy. His dark cloud is that he was closely associated with the Piltdown Man hoax. But he wrote many pieces attempting to reconcile science with religion, getting himself firmly denounced by both sides. One piece I read leads me to believe one of his fiercest critics was Stephen J. Gould.

Anyway, it seems he has some interesting takes on a lot of things, some of which I have trouble following (and suspect I might not agree with), but his credentials suggest he may have some material that addresses this issue. So that is where I think I will look next.

Kind Regards to all, especially Alexa! ;)
 
Here's some quick notes I pulled from two sites. I haven't any opinion yet, so I am putting these up for comment:

Teilhard insists that only by cultivating our moral sense of obligation to life can we overcome our present fear and anxiety for the human future. For him the fundamental law of morality is thus to liberate that conscious energy that seeks further to unify the world. This is the energy of human love, an impulse toward unity, an impulse of mind and heart that manifests itself particularly in the relish a person has for creative tasks undertaken from a sense of duty.
http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/scientists/teilhard.htm

----------------

What is far less well known is the fact that Teilhard was also a fervent Christian mystic and a deeply caring pastor of souls who helped many of his friends and acquaintances in their understanding of the Christian faith. Thus his large corpus of writings represents in many ways a modern form of Christian apologetics, for throughout his life he reflected with much courage on the meaning of the Christian gospel in the light of modern science, especially in relation to evolution.
Teilhard,s thought is a fine modern example of reflecting on the old philosophical problem of "the one and the many", of seeing the individual human being as part of the whole of humanity, and of seeing humanity as part of the stream of life within an evolving world and cosmos. In many ways we can consider his thought as very ecological, for he could not see the human being except as part of nature, as being an integral part of the larger natural environment. To see the human being in relation to humankind, and humankind in relation to life, and life in relation to the universe, that is the basic plan of his book The Phenomenon of Man which deals with the stages of "Pre-Life", "Life" and "Thought" in the past, followed by a discussion of the next stage, that of "Survival"- of a greater, fuller life. In this vision the human being is not a static centre, but "the axis and leading shoot of evolution". The rise of evolution is an immense movement through time, from the development of the atom to the molecule and cell, to different forms of life, and to human beings with their great diversity. This movement shows how the development of ever greater material and structural complexity leads in turn to an ever greater "within" of things, an increase in consciousness and reflection. He calls this development of greater complexity and accompanying greater concentration and interiority the "law of complexity-consciousness", now sometimes referred to as "Teilhardian law".
Teilhard,s thought brought together in one vision cosmic, human, and divine dimensions, which for him are all centred in Christ. Each of these dimensions is involved in a process of becoming, or what he calls genesis, a word which he used for creating many new terms: "Cosmogenesis" refers to the birth of the cosmos, "anthropogenesis" and "noogenesis" refer to the specifically human birth and the birth of thought. All these processes of growth are studied in minute detail by modern science, whereas "Christogenesis", referring to the birth of God in Christ as an event of cosmic significance and proportion, can only be seen through the eyes of faith. For Teilhard cosmic and human evolution are moving onwards to an ever fuller disclosure of the Spirit, culminating in what he calls "Christ-Omega".
This development is not automatic; it involves human responsibility and co-creativity, so that Teilhard,s mind was much exercised by the moral and ethical responsibilities for shaping the future of humanity and the life of the planet, but also for advancing the life of the Spirit. He enquired into the spiritual energy resources which are needed to create a better quality of life, greater human integration and a more peaceful and just world. He was fond of saying that we have thousands of engineers to calculate the material energy reserves of the planet, but where are the "technicians of the Spirit" who pay attention to the spiritual energy resources which can nurture and sustain the life of individuals and of the whole human community by feeding the spirit? For him, the spiritual heritage of the different world religions are most important; they provide us with our most precious spiritual energy resources. Human beings are responsible for their further self-evolution, for a higher social and cultural development and a greater unification of the human community, but ultimately these goals are only achievable through spiritual rather than merely material resources, and the greatest of these is represented by the powers of love. Using organic metaphors, Teilhard sees Christianity as a "phylum of love" which centres and channels these unitive powers of all-transforming love that alone can bring human beings more closely together. The theme of love is so strong and central in his thought that his entire work can be called a metaphysic and mysticism of love. Teilhard was convinced that we must study the powers of love as the most sacred spiritual energy resource in the same way that we study everything else in the world. Teilhard,s vision of the world and the human being was a vision of love; it was a spirituality that celebrated the wonders of creation, a spirituality "that acknowledges love as the clearest understanding we have of God, of ourselves, of history, and the cosmos", to quote the theologian David Tracy.
Teilhard,s thought represents a unique blend of science, religion and mysticism among religious thinkers in the modern world. His entire work is shaped by a deeply personal and mystic Christian faith in understanding the world and human beings.
Teilhard spoke of the "three natures" of Christ: the human, divine, and cosmic, an idea which other theologians need to develop further. He once described himself as the "apostle of the cosmic Christ" and he held such a dynamic, innovative and at the same time profoundly faithful view of Christianity that he provided the outlines for a new interpretation of the distinctive message of the Christian faith in the modern world. But traditional Christians often find his ideas, expressed through new words and difficult concepts, both challenging and unsettling; some have even accused him of being heretical and not a Christian at all, but rather a prophet of the New Age movement. This is of course a complete misunderstanding of his message. Yet it is true that his own Church misunderstood him during his lifetime, because the Catholic Church found it difficult then to accept the modern scientific teaching on evolution, especially regarding the origins of the human being, which contradict the biblical stories of human creation and the Fall.
In our current situation of cross-cultural encounter and growing global interdependence, Teilhard,s thought on evolution as a converging process is also worth reflecting on. He considered evolution as ultimately convergent, that is to say as moving eventually towards greater unity, or towards a unity-in-diversity. Within his wider, evolutionary understanding of the human being and of the world as a whole, many of his ideas are particularly relevant to contemporary discussions on globalisation, which is not only happening in the area of international economics and finance, but also in the area of cultures and religions. Teilhard was not uncritical of religion, for in his view all religions, including Christianity, are too past-oriented. They cannot offer ready-made solutions for the problems of the present world; yet their insights can still inspire and animate human thought and action. In Teilhard,s words humanity is in need "of a faith - and a great faith - and ever more faith", but it needs "a faith in a state of expansion", not numerically so much as qualitatively, by fostering world-transforming love and justice, and by promoting worship "in spirit and in truth". He ascribed an important evolutionary role to the religions themselves in providing essential ideas for the further development of the human community. In Teilhard,s view religions must grow greater and more clearly defined to the extent the human beings are becoming more adult.
http://www.farmington.ac.uk/documents/old_docs/pr3.html
 
Hello Juan,

Giving up already ? Mhm. What did you say about driving teachers crazy ? :D

That book I promised to read about the two sources of moral and religion, I cannot make up my mind. I really like how Bergson did the analyse and if I want to keep all what he wrote in this book I have to translate at least 100 pages ! We have Monday off, so I have a long week-end to give an 'aperçu' (glimpse) and wait you verdict.

Regards,

Alexa
 
juantoo3 said:
For him the fundamental law of morality is thus to liberate that conscious energy that seeks further to unify the world. This is the energy of human love, an impulse toward unity, ...

OK, so I agree with this "heretic" of both religion and science. But, I've always liked S. Gould, so I wonder what he is critical of?

...

Teilhard,s thought is a fine modern example of reflecting on the old philosophical problem of "the one and the many", of seeing the individual human being as part of the whole of humanity, and of seeing humanity as part of the stream of life within an evolving world and cosmos. In many ways we can consider his thought as very ecological, for he could not see the human being except as part of nature, as being an integral part of the larger natural environment. ...

Sounds sort of like what Abagado was talking about.

This movement shows how the development of ever greater material and structural complexity leads in turn to an ever greater "within" of things, an increase in consciousness and reflection. He calls this development of greater complexity and accompanying greater concentration and interiority the "law of complexity-consciousness", now sometimes referred to as "Teilhardian law".

Or maybe gestalt?
....


For Teilhard cosmic and human evolution are moving onwards to an ever fuller disclosure of the Spirit, culminating in what he calls "Christ-Omega".
This development is not automatic; it involves human responsibility and co-creativity, so that Teilhard,s mind was much exercised by the moral and ethical responsibilities for shaping the future of humanity and the life of the planet, but also for advancing the life of the Spirit. He enquired into the spiritual energy resources which are needed to create a better quality of life, greater human integration and a more peaceful and just world.

Well, this is another question that interests me. Are we evolving spiritually? Are we getting better at loving our neighbors? I would like to believe that we are.


He was fond of saying that we have thousands of engineers to calculate the material energy reserves of the planet, but where are the "technicians of the Spirit" who pay attention to the spiritual energy resources which can nurture and sustain the life of individuals and of the whole human community by feeding the spirit? .....

they are called nurses and teachers, mothers and fathers, priests and lay persons, shamans and healers, chief cooks and bottle washers. We have billions of such engineers.

but ultimately these goals are only achievable through spiritual rather than merely material resources, and the greatest of these is represented by the powers of love. ....Teilhard was convinced that we must study the powers of love as the most sacred spiritual energy resource in the same way that we study everything else in the world. Teilhard,s vision of the world and the human being was a vision of love; it was a spirituality that celebrated the wonders of creation, a spirituality "that acknowledges love as the clearest understanding we have of God, of ourselves, of history, and the cosmos", to quote the theologian David Tracy.

This is what I have come to believe as well. (But I kind of feel like a peace-n-love flowerchild when I express this.)
....

He considered evolution as ultimately convergent, that is to say as moving eventually towards greater unity, or towards a unity-in-diversity. Within his wider, evolutionary understanding of the human being and of the world as a whole, many of his ideas are particularly relevant to contemporary discussions on globalisation, which is not only happening in the area of international economics and finance, but also in the area of cultures and religions. ...He ascribed an important evolutionary role to the religions themselves in providing essential ideas for the further development of the human community. In Teilhard,s view religions must grow greater and more clearly defined to the extent the human beings are becoming more adult.

Sounds very much like Baha'i teachings.
 
Jt3,

Wow, a large block of information there. A couple of quick reactions.

juantoo3 said:
For him the fundamental law of morality is thus to liberate that conscious energy that seeks further to unify the world. This is the energy of human love, an impulse toward unity, ...

OK, so I agree with this "heretic" of both religion and science. But, I've always liked S. Gould, so I wonder what he is critical of?

...

Teilhard,s thought is a fine modern example of reflecting on the old philosophical problem of "the one and the many", of seeing the individual human being as part of the whole of humanity, and of seeing humanity as part of the stream of life within an evolving world and cosmos. In many ways we can consider his thought as very ecological, for he could not see the human being except as part of nature, as being an integral part of the larger natural environment. ...

Sounds sort of like what Abagado was talking about.

This movement shows how the development of ever greater material and structural complexity leads in turn to an ever greater "within" of things, an increase in consciousness and reflection. He calls this development of greater complexity and accompanying greater concentration and interiority the "law of complexity-consciousness", now sometimes referred to as "Teilhardian law".

Or maybe gestalt?
....


For Teilhard cosmic and human evolution are moving onwards to an ever fuller disclosure of the Spirit, culminating in what he calls "Christ-Omega".
This development is not automatic; it involves human responsibility and co-creativity, so that Teilhard,s mind was much exercised by the moral and ethical responsibilities for shaping the future of humanity and the life of the planet, but also for advancing the life of the Spirit. He enquired into the spiritual energy resources which are needed to create a better quality of life, greater human integration and a more peaceful and just world.

Well, this is another question that interests me. Are we evolving spiritually? Are we getting better at loving our neighbors? I would like to believe that we are.


He was fond of saying that we have thousands of engineers to calculate the material energy reserves of the planet, but where are the "technicians of the Spirit" who pay attention to the spiritual energy resources which can nurture and sustain the life of individuals and of the whole human community by feeding the spirit? .....

they are called nurses and teachers, mothers and fathers, priests and lay persons, shamans and healers, chief cooks and bottle washers. We have billions of such engineers.

but ultimately these goals are only achievable through spiritual rather than merely material resources, and the greatest of these is represented by the powers of love. ....

This is what I have come to believe as well. (But I kind of feel like a peace-n-love flowerchild when I express this.)
....

He considered evolution as ultimately convergent, that is to say as moving eventually towards greater unity, or towards a unity-in-diversity. Within his wider, evolutionary understanding of the human being and of the world as a whole, many of his ideas are particularly relevant to contemporary discussions on globalisation, which is not only happening in the area of international economics and finance, but also in the area of cultures and religions. ...He ascribed an important evolutionary role to the religions themselves in providing essential ideas for the further development of the human community. In Teilhard,s view religions must grow greater and more clearly defined to the extent the human beings are becoming more adult.

Sounds very much like Baha'i teachings.

Thank you for sharing this information here.

Cheers,
Lunamoth
 
Kindest Regards, lunamoth!

Thank you for the critique!

lunamoth said:
Wow, a large block of information there.
Just "brief" excerpts from the sites I quoted, trying to stay on-topic. Apparently this guy was a very prolific writer.

OK, so I agree with this "heretic" of both religion and science. But, I've always liked S. Gould, so I wonder what he is critical of?
The second site goes into that somewhat, although I was disappointed it didn't go into much detail. Apparently one of Gould's books (I forget now which) was a response directly at Teilhard.

Sounds sort of like what Abagado was talking about.
Hmmm. Maybe I missed that in Abogado's posts. Maybe you are right in this, I need to go back and re-read.

Or maybe gestalt?
Interesting take.

Well, this is another question that interests me. Are we evolving spiritually? Are we getting better at loving our neighbors? I would like to believe that we are.
I hadn't really considered that aspect. Maybe this is what Granni was getting at. Of course, how could this be demonstrated?

they are called nurses and teachers, mothers and fathers, priests and lay persons, shamans and healers, chief cooks and bottle washers. We have billions of such engineers.
I like this.

This is what I have come to believe as well. (But I kind of feel like a peace-n-love flowerchild when I express this.)
I don't know that Teilhard was much different, other than the brilliance apparent in his thinking. Teilhard was apparently, according to the second site, an influence on Aldous Huxley (Brave New World). Huxley was influencial in the "hippy" movement as an advocate of pychedelics.

Sounds very much like Baha'i teachings.
I agree, even though Baha'i predates Teilhard by a few decades. As an anthropologist, Teilhard was probably aware of Baha'i I would think, but I saw nothing specific to note that.

Thank you for sharing this information here.
You're welcome, that's what I'm here for.

I can see Teilhard deserves a good read to better understand where he is coming from. The synopses I have read slant their bias, which is understandable. It just makes understanding a bit difficult, taking the writers at their word that they have properly translated and quoted Teilhard in context, when he is so difficult to follow to begin with.
 
Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Thank you for your post!

alexa said:
Giving up already ? Mhm. What did you say about driving teachers crazy ? :D
More like writer's block. Or mental constipation? :(

That book I promised to read about the two sources of moral and religion, I cannot make up my mind. I really like how Bergson did the analyse and if I want to keep all what he wrote in this book I have to translate at least 100 pages ! We have Monday off, so I have a long week-end to give an 'aperçu' (glimpse) and wait you verdict.
Oh my, a Master's thesis! Quite a daunting task! I look forward to your apercu!
 
Hi Juan and lunamoth,

I have to admit I have a block of imagination, too. I've just discovered Henri Bergson got the Nobel Prize in literature in 1927. No wonder I enjoy his writings !

Bergson considers love as a second force, what he calls “the impetus of love” ;)

As I wouldn't dare to spoil his writings with an amateur's traduction, I'll let others to comment his book "The two Sources of Morality and Religion" with greater autority.

From Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy : http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/bergson/#6

The two sources of morality and religion
Bergson himself says that his final book, The Two Sources of Morality and Religion, develops ideas from Creative Evolution. It attempts to show that there are two sources from which two kinds of morality and religion evolve. As always with Bergson, Kant is at issue, in this case his moral philosophy. And as usual, Bergson starts by differentiating within a mixture. Under the word “morality” or under the phrase “moral obligation,” there is a mixture of two kinds of morality.

There is the closed morality, whose religion is static, and there is the open morality, whose religion is dynamic. Closed morality and static religion are concerned with social cohesion. Nature has made certain species evolve in such a way that the individuals in these species cannot exist on their own. They are fragile and require the support of a community. One quickly thinks of bees, and Bergson, of course, refers to them. We can see again that there are bodily needs which must be satisfied. The force of these needs is the source of the closed morality. Because of these needs, there is a rigidity to the rules of closed moralities. Kant's moral philosophy has its source in such needs. The survival of the community requires that there be strict obedience: the categorical imperative. Yet, although Kant's categorical imperative is supposed to be universal, it is not, according to Bergson. It is limited and particular. Closed morality really concerns the survival of a society, my society. Therefore, it always excludes other societies. Indeed, for Bergson, closed morality is always concerned with war. And static religion, the religion of closed morality, is based on what Bergson calls the “fabulation function.” The fabulation function is a particular function of the imagination that creates “voluntary hallucinations.” The fabulation function takes our sense that there is a presence watching over us and invents images of gods. These images then insure strict obedience to the closed morality. In short, they insure social cohesion.

But, there is another kind of morality and religion, according to Bergson. The open morality and dynamic religion are concerned with creativity and progress. They are not concerned with social cohesion, and thus Bergson calls this morality “open” because it includes everyone. The open morality is genuinely universal and it aims at peace. The source of the open morality is what Bergson calls “creative emotions.” The difference between creative emotions and normal emotions consists in this: in normal emotions, we first have a representation which causes the feeling (I see my friend and then I feel happy); in creative emotion, we first have the emotion which then creates representations. So, Bergson gives us the example of the joy of a musician who, on the basis of emotion, a symphony, and who then produces representations of the music in the score. We can see here that Bergson has also finally explained how the leap of an intuition happens. The creative emotion makes one unstable and throws one out of the habitual mode of intelligence, which is directed at needs. Indeed, in The Two Sources, Bergson compares creative emotions to unstable mental states as those found in the mad. But what he really has in mind is mystical experience. For Bergson, however, mystical experience is not simply a disequilibrium. Genuine mystical experience must result in action; it cannot remain simple contemplation of God. This association of creative emotions with mystical experience means that, for Bergson, dynamic religion is mystical. Indeed, dynamic religion, because it is always creative, cannot be associated with any particular organized set of doctrines. A religion with organized – and rigid — doctrines is always static.

The phrase with which we began, “moral obligation,” makes one think of Kantian duty. We have alluded to Kant on several occasions, but, let us conclude by examining Bergson's explicit criticism of Kant's moral philosophy. This criticism will demonstrate the strength of Bergson's moral philosophy and of his thought as a whole. According to Bergson, Kant's theory has made a “psychological error.” In any given society, there are many different, particular obligations. The individual in society may at some time desire to deviate from one particular obligation. When this illicit desire arises, there will be resistance from society but also from his habits. If the individual resists these resistances, a psychological state of tension or contraction occurs. The individual, in other words, experiences the rigidity of the obligation. Now, according to Bergson, when philosophers such as Kant attribute a severe aspect to duty, they have externalized this experience of obligation's inflexibility. In fact, for Bergson, if we ignore the multiplicity of particular obligations in any given society, and if instead we look at what he calls “the whole of obligation” (The Two Sources, p. 25), then we see that obedience to obligation is almost natural. According to Bergson, obligations, that is, customs, arise because of the natural need an individual has for the stability that a society can give. As a result of this natural need, society inculcates habits of obedience in the individual. Habituation means that obedience to the whole of obligation is, in fact, for the individual, effortless.

The psychological error then consists in externalizing an exceptional experience – which Bergson calls “resistance to the resistances” – into a moral theory. Duty becomes severe and inflexible. But there is more to this error. Kant believes that he can resolve obligation into rational elements. In the experience of resistance to the resistances, the individual has an illicit desire. And, since the individual is intelligent, the individual uses intelligence, a rational method, to act on itself. According to Bergson, what is happening here is that the rational method is merely restoring the force of the original tendency to obey the whole of obligation that society has inculcated in the individual. But as Bergson notes, the tendency is one thing; the rational method is another. The success of the rational method, however, gives us the illusion that the force with which an individual obeys any particular obligation comes from reason, that is, from the idea or representation, or better still, from the formula of the obligation.

But, there is another force. The second force is what Bergson calls “the impetus of love” (The Two Sources, p. 96). The impetus of love, like joy but also like sympathy, is a creative emotion. The emotion must be explicated into actions and representations. But, this process of explication can be extended. The representations that the mystic explicates can be further explicated into formulas, for example, the formula of each person being deserving of respect and dignity. These formulas, which are the expression of creation and love, are now able to be mixed with the formulas that aim solely to insure the stability of any given society. Since we are now speaking only of formulas, creation and cohesion, the two forces, are mixed together in reason. As before, whereas the rational method used in the experience of resistance to the resistances comes to explain the force of obedience, here in the mystical experience of the impetus of love the formulas come to explain the force of creation. A reversal has taken place. The very forces that have generated the formulas are instead now being explained by those very formulas. Indeed, this is the problem. How could some representation of intelligence have the power to train the will? How could an idea categorically demand its own realization? As Bergson says, “Re-establish the duality [of forces], the difficulties vanish” (The Two Sources, p. 96). The two forces are, however, but two complementary manifestations of life.
 
Hi Alexa, hope all is well in your neck of the woods. :)

alexa said:
Bergson considers love as a second force, what he calls “the impetus of love” ;)

So, this finally solves the mystery of the lyrics of that 70's song by Steve Miller: "Some call me the space cowboy, some call me the gangster of love, some people call me Maurice, cause I speak of the (incomprehensible words that sound like the pompetus of love)". I now conclude that he speaks of the impetus of love.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_065.html

....The emotion must be explicated into actions and representations. But, this process of explication can be extended. The representations that the mystic explicates can be further explicated into formulas, for example, the formula of each person being deserving of respect and dignity. These formulas, which are the expression of creation and love, are now able to be mixed with the formulas that aim solely to insure the stability of any given society. Since we are now speaking only of formulas, creation and cohesion, the two forces, are mixed together in reason. As before, whereas the rational method used in the experience of resistance to the resistances comes to explain the force of obedience, here in the mystical experience of the impetus of love the formulas come to explain the force of creation. A reversal has taken place. The very forces that have generated the formulas are instead now being explained by those very formulas. Indeed, this is the problem. How could some representation of intelligence have the power to train the will? How could an idea categorically demand its own realization? As Bergson says, “Re-establish the duality [of forces], the difficulties vanish” (The Two Sources, p. 96). The two forces are, however, but two complementary manifestations of life.

Dear Alexa, if you read an entire text in this vein I have to give you a lot of credit! After studying just these excerpts my head is spinning. Guess that's why I always ultimately give up on reading deeply in philosophy. :p
 
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Kindest Regards, Lunamoth!
lunamoth said:
Dear Alexa, if you read an entire text in this vein I have to give you a lot of credit! After studying just these excerpts my head is spinning. Guess that's why I always ultimately give up on reading deeply in philosophy. :p
I am beginning to very much agree with you on this! (and I'm the one who started this mess...) :D
 
Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Wow, what a post, where do I begin?

alexa said:
Bergson considers love as a second force, what he calls “the impetus of love” ;)
Not being familiar with Bergson's work, is all of this in line with what we have come up with? Here, is "the impetus of love" being what we have called "love as a driver?"

It attempts to show that there are two sources from which two kinds of morality and religion evolve. As always with Bergson, Kant is at issue, in this case his moral philosophy. And as usual, Bergson starts by differentiating within a mixture. Under the word “morality” or under the phrase “moral obligation,” there is a mixture of two kinds of morality.

Is this what we have been calling "conscience" and "law?"

There is the closed morality, whose religion is static, and there is the open morality, whose religion is dynamic.
Closed morality seems to me "law," and static religion seems "formal religion." Open morality seems to me "conscience" and dynamic religion seems "genuine religion," or perhaps spirituality.

But, there is another force. The second force is what Bergson calls “the impetus of love”.
This seems to me what Luna brought forward about morality being the tension between our animal nature and our spiritual nature.

The very forces that have generated the formulas are instead now being explained by those very formulas. Indeed, this is the problem. How could some representation of intelligence have the power to train the will? How could an idea categorically demand its own realization? As Bergson says, “Re-establish the duality [of forces], the difficulties vanish” (The Two Sources, p. 96). The two forces are, however, but two complementary manifestations of life.
If I understand this correctly, then we are in agreement with Bergson, if using different terms to describe the matter. I question whether or not "the difficulties vanish," as this thread demonstrates. If my personal experiences are a valid example, then it would seem to me that personal morality is often in flux (dynamic). I want to believe I know what right and wrong are, but I often choose to do wrong anyway. And there are also times when right and wrong are not so clearly defined, I don't know which until after I have made my choice.

And then there are the times when doing what seems wrong now, prevents a greater wrong later. In that case, can wrong sometimes seem to be right?

Thank you for the great post! At least this guy seems a bit easier to understand than Teilhard.
 
Hi lunamoth and Juan,



I realize it's difficult to understand Bergson only from one critic of his last book. I found him logical in his inquires and you really cannot take one fragment out without missing the point of his meaning. I couldn’t find any way to do a copy and paste from the book and the translation from French will take me too much time to do it, as I’m not a professional translator.



Even we are only budding philosophers, we have approached in a different manner to the same conclusions as Bergson did almost one hundred years ago!



Here you have an excerpt from the first chapter, Moral obligation, for a better understanding of this philosopher. This is the only fragment I could find in English. I apology for any possible typing error. You do not need to read all the text, but you may pay attention for what is underlined in blue and red.



 

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Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Thank you for the awesome post!

alexa said:
Even we are only budding philosophers, we have approached in a different manner to the same conclusions as Bergson did almost one hundred years ago!
This is comforting, that we are on the right track, at least in the view of one notable scholar!

In looking at this piece, I am left believing Bergson implies morality is a learned trait, not innate (or universal) as we have been seeking to discover. Is this correct? :)
 
Hi Juan,

Glad to hear I didn't read and write for nothing ! :)

juantoo3 said:
In looking at this piece, I am left believing Bergson implies morality is a learned trait, not innate (or universal) as we have been seeking to discover. Is this correct? :)
Bergson believed the morale has a biological essence. Human or animal, the society is an organization which implies coordination and a subordination of the elements to each others. An animal society (he gave the example of ants’ nest) the organization is relatively invariable. In a human society, the organization varies and it’s open to the progress. The rules in nature are imposed by necessity, while in a human society, the only natural thing is the necessity of a rule.

So the answer to your question is : yes, the morality is a learned trait.

I guess our inquires are close to the end now. But, this is up to you. ;)
 
Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Thank you for your post!

alexa said:
Glad to hear I didn't read and write for nothing ! :)
Oh no, your contributions have been quite valuable and appreciated!

So the answer to your question is : yes, the morality is a learned trait.
This, while still retaining elements of nature and nurture, animal and spirit?

I guess our inquires are close to the end now. But, this is up to you. ;)
The only question raised and not being sufficiently addressed to this point, is where did we (collectively) first learn morality? Where did our parents' parents' parents first learn? Bergson's static morality could be shown well enough to have its source in social interactions among animals, but his dynamic morality (conscience) would of necessity require rational thought (which was pointed out by others elsewhere in this discussion).

Rational thought then, is a very important threshhold across which humans have stepped. That ability allows us to reflect and consider, even predict. And it allows us to weigh the options of "good and evil." I don't think I will find a scholar to support it, but I believe the dawn of rational thought is the "eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil," that the first "humans" to think were Adam and Eve. Granted, this is likely more allegorical than absolute fact, but the concept remains. In all of our pursuit here, I have seen nothing to dispute, or even discuss, this.

So yes, I suppose the conversation is drawing to a close, unless we could find information dealing with the dawn of rational thought in humans, and how it connects directly with conscience.

My sincerest thanks to everyone who contributed! :)
 
Dear Juan,

juantoo3 said:
This, while still retaining elements of nature and nurture, animal and spirit?
No. Bergson convinced me on the contrary !:D

I believe we have explored a lot about the morality. I enjoyed every bit of this challenge ! :) Thank you very much. I learned a lot of things and if I have to go back, I'll do it again !

I'm ready for the next challenge. What do you propose ? ;)

Regards,

Alexa
 
Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Thank you!

alexa said:
I believe we have explored a lot about the morality. I enjoyed every bit of this challenge ! :) Thank you very much. I learned a lot of things and if I have to go back, I'll do it again !
Oh, absolutely! I have learned a great deal myself, and I expect over time to keep looking. The difference is that here I have learned more in a short space of time, in great company, than I ever could on my own.

I'm ready for the next challenge. What do you propose ? ;)
Well, I haven't given up on your question about the multiplicity of languages and religions. Is that closely related enough to this thread, or should we begin anew? Personally, I think the subject is worthy of a fresh beginning.

If that is acceptable, and provided I have time, I might suggest starting with the beginning of written language. If I recall, that would be cuneiform in Mesopotamian Sumeria (coincidentally in the region of the Tower of Babel).

OH! Before I go, great news! Just last night I learned that I was accepted for a full time position at the hospital, I begin Sunday. I also have my final quarter to complete at school, to finish my Bachelor's in Business Management, I should be finished just before Christmas. But between now and then it will be very busy around here.

I was also offered an opportunity to visit China this January, and I am thinking it would make a wonderful visit, and how I could get my "ducks in a row" so I could go. So things will be very busy around here for awhile.

But I would love to discuss your question. It is something I skimmed over when writing a paper some time back, and I thought it would make an interesting study at some time. Now is as good of a time as any!
 
Hi Juan,

juantoo3 said:
Well, I haven't given up on your question about the multiplicity of languages and religions. Is that closely related enough to this thread, or should we begin anew? Personally, I think the subject is worthy of a fresh beginning.
I my God ! I forgot about that one ! :D It definitely needs a new start, especially if you want to begin with the cuneiform language !

This one will be harder to deel with, but the challenge should be very interesting.

Just tell me what do you have in mind for it and it doesn't matter if you do not have the time right now. We do not need to fix a limit time. If we want some results, a good research is absolutely necessary.

My sincerest congratulations for you new job ! A China vacation should be interesting, so I wish you to enjoy it plently.;)

Regards,

Alexa




But I would love to discuss your question. It is something I skimmed over when writing a paper some time back, and I thought it would make an interesting study at some time. Now is as good of a time as any![/QUOTE]
 
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