The Present Age Passing Away

The ability to measure and predict the position and momentum of multiple objects in space through time is never perfect. It is always an approximation, and current models could become inaccurate due to unforseen changes.

I never claimed that our current understanding about the positions of planets was "perfect". What human knowledge could be described that way?

It is however a close enough "approximation" for us to spend billions of dollars on a space program that has sent probes that have either landed or flown by seven planets. I think it's safe to say that it's been capably demonstrated that we know where these planets are.

In case you haven't been paying attention to this fascinating aspect of modern-day science, here's a brief run-down...


Mercury

As of January 2008, the Mariner 10 and MESSENGER missions have been the only missions that have made close observations of Mercury. MESSENGER made a fly-by of Mercury on 14 January 2008, to further investigate the observations made by Mariner 10 in 1975 (Munsell, 2006b). A third mission to Mercury, scheduled to arrive in 2020, BepiColombo is to include two probes. BepiColombo is a joint mission between Japan and the European Space Agency. MESSENGER and BepiColombo are intended to gather complementary data to help scientists understand many of the mysteries discovered by Mariner 10's flybys.


Venus

Venus was the first target of interplanetary flyby and lander missions and, despite one of the most hostile surface environments in the solar system, has had more landers sent to it (nearly all from the Soviet Union) than any other planet in the solar system. The first successful Venus flyby was the American Mariner 2 spacecraft, which flew past Venus in 1962. Mariner 2 has been followed by several other flybys by multiple space agencies often as part of missions using a Venus flyby to provide a gravitational assist en route to other celestial bodies. In 1967 Venera 4 became the first probe to enter and directly examine the atmosphere of Venus. In 1970 Venera 7 became the first successful lander to reach the surface of Venus and by 1985 it had been followed by eight additional successful Soviet Venus landers which provided images and other direct surface data. Starting in 1975 with the Soviet orbiter Venera 9 some ten successful orbiter missions have been sent to Venus, including later missions which were able to map the surface of Venus using radar to pierce the obscuring atmosphere.


Mars

The exploration of Mars has been an important part of the space exploration programs of the Soviet Union (later Russia), the United States, Europe, and Japan. Dozens of robotic spacecraft, including orbiters, landers, and rovers, have been launched toward Mars since the 1960s. These missions were aimed at gathering data about current conditions and answering questions about the history of Mars. The questions raised by the scientific community are expected to not only give a better appreciation of the red planet but also yield further insight into the past, and possible future, of Earth.


Asteroids and comets

Until the advent of space travel, objects in the asteroid belt were merely pinpricks of light in even the largest telescopes, their shapes and terrain remaining a mystery. Several asteroids have now been visited by probes, the first of which was Galileo, which flew past two: 951 Gaspra in 1991, followed by 243 Ida in 1993. Both of these lay near enough to Galileo's planned trajectory to Jupiter that they could be visited at acceptable cost. The first landing on an asteroid was performed by the NEAR Shoemaker probe in 2000, following an orbital survey of the object. The dwarf planet Ceres and the asteroid 4 Vesta, two of the three largest asteroids, are targets of NASA's Dawn mission, launched in 2007.

While many comets have been closely studied from Earth sometimes with centuries-worth of observations, only a few comets have been closely visited. A few long-period comets are currently the furthest known objects in the solar system. In 1985, the International Cometary Explorer conducted the first comet fly-by (21P/Giacobini-Zinner) before joining the Halley Armada studying the famous comet. The Deep Impact probe smashed into 9P/Tempel to learn more about its structure and composition while the Stardust mission returned samples of another comet's tail. The Philae lander will attempt to land on a comet in 2014.

Hayabusa was an unmanned spacecraft developed by the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency to return a sample of material from a small near-Earth asteroid named 25143 Itokawa to Earth for further analysis. Hayabusa was launched on 9 May 2003 and rendezvoused with Itokawa in mid-September 2005. After arriving at Itokawa, Hayabusa studied the asteroid's shape, spin, topography, colour, composition, density, and history. In November 2005, it landed on the asteroid to collect samples. The spacecraft returned to Earth on 13 June 2010.


Jupiter

The exploration of Jupiter has consisted solely of a number of automated NASA spacecraft visiting the planet since 1973. A large majority of the missions have been "flybys", in which detailed observations are taken without the probe landing or entering orbit; the Galileo spacecraft is the only one to have orbited the planet. As Jupiter is believed to have only a relatively small rocky core and no real solid surface, a landing mission is nearly impossible.


Saturn

Saturn has been explored only through unmanned spacecraft launched by NASA, including one mission (Cassini–Huygens) planned and executed in cooperation with other space agencies. These missions consist of flybys in 1979 by Pioneer 11, in 1980 by Voyager 1, in 1982 by Voyager 2 and an orbital mission by the Cassini spacecraft which entered orbit in 2004 and is expected to continue its mission well into 2010.


Uranus

The exploration of Uranus has been entirely through the Voyager 2 spacecraft, with no other visits currently planned. Given its axial tilt of 97.77°, with its polar regions exposed to sunlight or darkness for long periods, scientists were not sure what to expect at Uranus. The closest approach to Uranus occurred on January 24, 1986. Voyager 2 studied the planet's unique atmosphere and magnetosphere. Voyager 2 also examined its ring system and the moons of Uranus including all five of the previously known moons, while discovering an additional ten previously unknown moons.


Neptune

The exploration of Neptune began with the August 25, 1989 Voyager 2 flyby, the sole visit to the system as of 2009. The possibility of a Neptune Orbiter has been discussed, but no other missions have been given serious thought.


And it turns out NASA also provides a web-tool for finding planetary positions by date. It can be found at NASA - JPL Solar System Simulator. I would tend to trust its results based on the resume above. And it corroborates the findings I have previously posted.
 
One of the reasons. An astro-blog had a post, "Venus is like the cheerleader, and Jupiter the captain of the football team; but Pluto was that goth chick who sits in the corner writing poems about dead birds."
Pluto was a split personality with a twisted sister almost as strong as he, and then the darn kyber belt issue, beyond the belt and not significantly larger than items in the belt...if pluto was to stay on the list all sorts of others would have to be let into the club that like the two that made up what was called Pluto were not real planetoids simply large rocks.

Of course plutonians liked to argue as to how the fluffy gaseous bodies could be called planets when there wasn't even anything to land on...

But lining up?? These guys can't even get any agreement amongst themselves much less pick a time to 'line up'.
 
The only question here is whether there will be a perfect alignment of planets on 12/21/2012.
I never claimed that our current understanding about the positions of planets was "perfect". What human knowledge could be described that way?
It seems that you didn't have to go to any web sites to shoot down your first question. I guess that places the value of that exercise.
 
It seems that you didn't have to go to any web sites to shoot down your first question. I guess that places the value of that exercise.

Luecy, the value of your posts is what is becoming more questionable.

You do realize (I hope) that the notion of perfect (or "direct", "lined up in a row") planetary alignment came from Victor and not from me ...

Nicely done; are you anticipating an alignement of all the planets? "Having all planets line up in a row with the sun at one time, might cause some significant gravimetric changes world wide (hell, solar wide)..." In fact, if you will check a decent Ephemeris you will discover that this is what all the chatter on 12.21.2012 is all about. As close as can be calculated, on that date ALL the planets in our solar system will be in a direct alignment with the center of our galaxy!


I merely provided evidence, from three sources now, that shows there is no "alignment", no "row of all the planets and the Sun" occurring on the date as Victor claimed.

Is that not clear enough for you?
 
I merely provided evidence, from three sources now, that shows there is no "alignment", no "row of all the planets and the Sun" occurring on the date as Victor claimed.

I guess that places the value you hold on scientific, verifiable evidence.
No contest, you are the victor. Your vision could certainly happen the way that you predict.
 
No contest, you are the victor. Your vision could certainly happen the way that you predict.

I'd say it's a lot more likely to happen, than to have orbiting planets speed up, slow down or come to screeching stops, which is what would be necessary for Victor's alignment to occur on December 21, 2012.

Wouldn't you agree?
 
this is what Nasa says:
NASA - The Great 2012 Doomsday Scare
"New Agers" have long liked to believe that at "preordained" times there is a "thinning of the veil" making it easier for folks to see "Truth." Were it but that easy.;) Planetary alignment? Pish Posh. :p earl
 
this is what Nasa says:
NASA - The Great 2012 Doomsday Scare
"New Agers" have long liked to believe that at "preordained" times there is a "thinning of the veil" making it easier for folks to see "Truth." Were it but that easy.;) Planetary alignment? Pish Posh. :p earl

Yeah that's a good article but most 2012 Dooms Day believers and Conspiracy Theorists dismiss it. Christians have bought into it even though its a false prophecy according to their doctrine anyway. Today as a matter of fact there was suppose to have been a great pole shift 220+ failed and counting....
 
I thought '2012', whatever it means, was shown to be an erroneous determination anyway, and a couple of hundred years out?

+++

I'm of the opinion that for every generation, what the new brings means a passing away of the old. Some of those of advanced years can accommodate change, others not so easily.

My folks can remember a time, that sort of stuff ... even I can remember as a kid, 'playing out' in the school holidays from dawn til dusk, buying 'rover' tickets which meant I could travel all over the London bus and subway network ... which meant 2 nine year old kids travelling as far as we could to explore places we'd never been to before.

Now, no parent in their right mind lets their child play out, all day, unattended, and without a mobile to keep in touch, so I'm not sure what 'present age' is supposed to mean, but the world was certainly a less-informed, if not less innocent place, when I was a kid, and that one passed away by the time I was 30 ...

It's passing away all the time.

Of course, there are major cycles within that, and the technologies of the future would mean that, by the year 2,000 we'd have days of free time per week to pursue leisure activities ... and now we find ourselves technology rich, and time poor ... as I arrived on my bike for work, I stopped to let passengers off the local train cross the road. Half of them were talking on their mobiles ... is it absolutely necessary that we all must be in touch all the time?

God bless,

Thomas
 
It was never mean't as an end time event! I just do not see what part of that people do not understand...even Mayans living today do not look at it as an end time event only the end of an ancient calendar. You know its real pathetic in my opinion when all anyone has to do is sit around and worry about when we are all no longer going to be here. We have "Prophecy Pimps" to thank those who sit around and dream up answers to this stuff in order to create a scare mongering tactic. Things like this is the very reason that if it ever does happen people are going to ignore it because you can only cry wolf so much.
 
Yes Thomas, that is how we grew up, and that age is passing away in much of the industrialized world... but not in the rest of the world.

Children all over still have the ability to explore, to roam to run...

In summer time we used to run out after breakfast, after chores and be gone until we raided someones house for lunch...and then wouldn't be back until dinner.

We'd pack lunch and climb mountains...I didn't live in the city at that time...

I used to ride my bike over 10 miles to go see friends from my old school...and ride back before dinner..

oh....and the trouble we used to get into....
 
The article "The Great 2012 Doomsday Scare" ends with a promising answer "So maybe the Maya were onto us afterall. The clock is ticking. And it's the end of the world as we know it."

It is my understanding that the Cherokee calendar also ends at the same time as the Mayan calendar. I don't look at any of this as "doomsday" or the end of times, just an important change. I read somewhere that the changing magnetic field will alter the endrocrine production of the pineal gland. The pole shift is suppose to take place in our human psyche and give birth to our higher selves. The birth of our higher selves can change our world because we will change the way we think.

The greatest weapon of mass destruction is our own minds. While I certainly have no proof of this possible change, I do believe it is deeply encoded in many of the great religions in the world as well as in prophecies, legends, and ancient tales. They all tell us what we must do to enter paradise, to walk in the garden of eden. If we open our eyes and see with our souls.

For those that don't believe in prophecies or hidden messages, I will not try to change your minds. I can only share what I see.

There is a Hawaiian prophecy which goes:

E iho ana o luna
e pi'i ana o lalo
e hui ana na moku
e ku ana ka paia - ea ea
Kapihe

translated:
That which is below will rise up
That which is above will come down
The islands unite.
The wall stands.

Many interpretations of it's inner meaning. I believe it is related to the crossing over, the bridge, and a new people. Enough said, just sharing my thoughts. He Hawai'i Au, poh
 
I thought we already had our the big cataclysmic planetary alignment in the year 2000?

That's what we were told before then, anyway.

Who changed the date? What, have New Agers become the new JW's in terms of continually unsuccessfully predicting the end of the world?
 
I just thought I'd point out another example of our space program positively demonstrating their understanding of planetary positions.

From the New York Times, March 17, 2010...


NASA Spacecraft Circling Mercury

NASA's spacecraft called Messenger successfully veered into a pinpoint orbit Thursday night after a 6 1/2-year trip and 4.9 billion miles and tricky maneuvering to fend off the gravitational pull of the sun. It is the fifth planet in our solar system that NASA has orbited, in addition to the Earth and the moon.
 
touche...

all we have to fear is fear itself...

Well, we have a lot more to fear than that. The greatest enemy of the mind is nostalgia. It is the mechanism by which the most destructive, controlling propaganda is delivered.

Chris
 
Just thought Victor might want to know that we may not even make it to November 17 ...

:eek: The End of the World October 21, 2011 :eek:


Don't bother shopping early for Christmas. It would just be a waste of money. ;)

Good old Harold Camping. Made the same prediction in 1994, had thousands standing around waiting on the end, it did not happen! Give him credit still making the same stupid predictions years later.
 
I just thought I'd point out another example of our space program positively demonstrating their understanding of planetary positions.

From the New York Times, March 17, 2010...
NASA Spacecraft Circling Mercury

NASA's spacecraft called Messenger successfully veered into a pinpoint orbit Thursday night after a 6 1/2-year trip and 4.9 billion miles and tricky maneuvering to fend off the gravitational pull of the sun. It is the fifth planet in our solar system that NASA has orbited, in addition to the Earth and the moon.
Your faith in NASA to predict and to provide, at your expense by some measure, is not without achievement. However, NASA's Glory launched on the very same day as Victor's original post, and your calculated bet. Contrary to your faith in NASA's predictive capability, NASA's Glory did not exactly reach orbit. Why the failed prediction, citizenzen?
NASA Glory Satellite Fails To Reach Orbit

WASHINGTON -- NASA's Glory mission launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California Friday at 5:09:45 a.m. EST failed to reach orbit.

Telemetry indicated the fairing, the protective shell atop the Taurus XL rocket, did not separate as expected about three minutes after launch.

It seems to me we each have our predictive failures. Unlike your bet, the satellite alone cost US $424 million taxpayer dollars. A vision though, I'm not sure you can fault a man for having a vision... can you, citizenzen?
 
Why the failed prediction, citizenzen?

Luecy7,

Perhaps you missed the line in that short news item...

Telemetry indicated the fairing, the protective shell atop the Taurus XL rocket, did not separate as expected about three minutes after launch.


To provide you with an analogy, it would be like you car breaking down at the outset of a trip.

It would have nothing to do with knowing (or not) the location of your planned destination.
 
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