Does God exist?

[Sensei]

Many people don’t know if God exists. They don't know if a higher power exists. So how do we know that there is a God? How do we know that there is a creator? Let me share a story with you.

One day two friends went fishing with a little boat. One of them was an atheist (non-believer) and the other was a believer (he believed in God). As they were fishing they had a conversation with eachother.

The Atheist: Why do you believe in God? We can’t see God. The Universe was created by itself.

The Believer: Let me ask you a question. Is the boat we are sitting in created by itself?

The Atheist: No, off course not. It is a skillful carpenter who has made the boat.

The Believer: So you agree that this boat is not created by itself?

The Atheist: Yes, I agree.

The Believer: When such a little thing as a boat can’t be created by itself, then how can the enormous Universe and our huge planet be created by itself?

The Atheist: I don’t know.

The Believer: Now you know why I believe in God.

Many people claim that God doesn’t exist because we can’t see God. You can’t see heat or cold neither, but it does’nt mean that heat and cold don’t exist. You can’t see heat or cold, but you can feel it. You can’t see God, but you can feel God’s presence. You can’t see aliens neither, but it doesn’t mean that aliens don’t exist. So even dough you can’t see something, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. And since you can feel God’s presence, this is a sign that God exists. If God has answered your prayers, that’s another sign that God exists. The creation of the Universe, the sun, the moon, the stars, the planets, the earth, and the nature is a proof that a higher power exists. In addition to these things, thelogians, philosophers and scientists has proved that God exists.
Allah has created the Universe, and is the higher power that maintains it. The universe is not created by itself. The Universe is not created by chance. Not even a little pencil can be created by chance. So when not even a pencil can be created by itself, then how can the enormous, harmonious, symmetrical, mathematical and scientific Universe be created by itself? When not even a little pencil can be created by itself, then how can the advanced and complex human body be created by itself? Did you know that the human brain is more than 40 000 times more advanced then the most advanced computer that exists in the world today? Think about. When a flower grows, who makes the flower grow? Human beings don’t make the flower grow. Human beings can never make a flower grow. If a flower is going to grow, it needs energy from the outside. Energy that makes it grow. It is higher power that makes the flower grow. And that higher power is God the Almighty, the All-knowing. God is the one who created the Universe. And God is the one who maintains it.

Many people claim that the existence of God, is not compatible with science and rationality. If the existence of God is not compatible with science, then why is the existence of God proven by science? If the existence of God is not compatible wih rationality, then why is the existence of God proven by reason? If the existence of God is not compatible with science or rationality, then why did some of the greatest scientists and philosophers believe in God? Albert Einstein, Nicolas Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Galileo Galilei, Isaac Newton, Leonardo Davinci, Louis Pasteur and Rene Descartes were scientists who believed in God. Aristoteles, Immanuel Kant, Voltaire, Spinoza, were philosphers who believed in God. Some people claim that Socrates also may have believed in God (from the interpretations of the dialogues of Platon). And guess what, some of the greatest human rights activistists also believed in God. Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and Nelson Mandela were human rights activists who believed in God.

A couple of years a ago, there was a study in the Usa, were they wanted to find out how religious people and non-believers are when it comes to cleanliness. A study were some academics studied the lifestyles of religious people and non-believers. Do you know what they found out? They want out that does who believed in God, were more concerned with cleanliness than does who didn’t believe in God. Those who believed in God, washed their hands more times each day, than those who didn’t believe in God.
Did you know that people who believe in god, and have connection with religion/spirituality, are those who are most happy. And that religion is linked to a happy life. This is confirmed by a study done by Professor Clark and Dr Orsolya Lelkes. Their findings suggested that religion can offer a protection from life’s dissapointments and that religious people had higher levels of satisfaction.

What we found was that religious people were experiencing current day rewards, rather than storing them up for the future
- Professor Andrew Clark, Paris School of Economics.

Did you know that all psychological problems have a religious/spiritual cause? It is lack of belief/spirituality that makes many people depressed and experience other psychological problems. When someone believes this life is created by chance, and don’t know the meaning of life, he/she might easily get psychological problems. Many people who don’t have a belief system based on a religion, get an emptiness in themselves that they fill with alchohol, parties, materialism. They are never content and constantly want more material things, and constantly want to do things that only give them pleasure (not happiness). The famous psychologist Carl Jung, found out that all the psychological problems of his patients, had a religious cause. He had worket as a therapist in many years. And found out that all of his patients, that had psychological problems, had a lack of religious belief/spirituality. There are no man-made ideologies or philosophies that can give people true happiness and inner peace. Only God can answer our prayers. So it is important ask god to guide us. And show us the way. If you ever get stuck, and life seems hard, ask God to show you the way. Pray to God alone. And God can answer your prayers.

 

[Snoopy]

Why ask a question if you know the answer?

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

Why ask a question if you know the answer?

What are you doing here?

(At least I admit that I'm doing it.)

 

[luecy7]

I submit that believing in God is more a matter of presuming the answer to the question: Is God good?

 

[OAT]

@Sensei,
Buddhism explains the existence of the universe and all the mess in it without the need to invoke a creator god and original sin.
Modern science has its own way of explaining existence.
So, the assumption of the existence of a creator god is not the only way to explain the existence of the universe. It is not even the best or most logical way.

 

[Vajradhara]

to the OP:

NO.

 

[Saltmeister]

@Sensei,
Buddhism explains the existence of the universe and all the mess in it without the need to invoke a creator god and original sin.
Modern science has its own way of explaining existence.
So, the assumption of the existence of a creator god is not the only way to explain the existence of the universe. It is not even the best or most logical way.

There are hundreds of ways the world could have been created. We could for example be living in a digital Matrix, like the one in the Matrix saga.

It isn't necessarily a matter of finding the best explanation, nor a matter of finding evidence to prove one theory over others. The world/universe may have been created to rule out the possibility of people finding evidence for an external and independent creator. The creator, for example may not want people to discover him that way.

Having said that, there may not be any inherently or self-evidently superior, more logical or rational explanations. It may not be based on rationality at all.

According to the Abrahamic traditions, God has sent messengers delivering instructions on how to "escape" this world. We do not all belong here and those of us who don't belong here must escape this world. The purpose of this message is to help us find our way back to where we belong. Explaining the existence of the universe is not necessarily important for that purpose.

The messengers may offer a "rational explanation," but that doesn't mean that the way back has to do with being rational. Christians saying that you have to believe that Jesus is your saviour or Muslims saying that there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is the last prophet, that Islam is the solution for the world -- does not necessarily lead to "salvation" or "ascension."

The message itself isn't necessarily "the way" to escape this world.

If the purpose of escaping this world is to find our way back to where we belong, then belonging is an important part of the process of escaping. We must know that we "belong" to "something" in order to know how to escape. One way of knowing that you "belong" is to be aware of others who also "belong."

According to Christian Olive Tree Theology, a number of branches broke off from the cultivated olive tree and started to mingle with branches of the wild olive tree. The branches that broke off from the cultivated olive tree were not supposed to be lost. Their mission was to cut up branches of the wild olive tree and bring them back to the cultivated olive tree.

The cultivated olive tree is almost certainly Judaism. The wild olive tree represents the Gentile world. Christianity emerged from the intermingling of the Jewish and Gentile worlds. It started as a Jewish sect "breaking off" from the mainstream (Pharsaic Judaism) and mingling with the Gentile world.

What Christians seem to have forgotten is that the early Christians saw their mission as a process of co-opting, integrating and assimilating pagan traditions and bringing people to God. St Boniface cut down a tree to show that the tree god was false. That was how Christmas developed. Easter developed out of Roman Emperor Constantine's conversion. These are both examples of integration, co-optation and assimilation. The opponents of Christianity decided to "join" Christianity. They were not beaten or humiliated.

Hellenism was the first thought system to be assimilated and integrated into Christianity. I think it would be hard to overstate this, but just like Christians today regard Buddhism as an "unworthy religion/tradition," many Jews regarded Hellenism to be unworthy.

The apostle (and Pharisee) Paul changed this by declaring that many of the ideas of Hellenism were good and that if the Hellenists wanted a relationship with the "one God" of Judaism they could keep the good parts of Hellenism and dump the bad parts of Hellenism.

Integration and assimilation are inclusivistic concepts. They extend a collective or community to include members who would otherwise be "foreign" to the mainstream population. Because integrationism and assimilationism extend the values of the mainstream population to "include" or "tolerate" foreign members, the size of the population increases. The foreigners are no longer foreigners. They are now part of the same family.

You didn't have to be ethnically Jewish anymore to be part of the Jesus movement. You could be Greek and Roman. Believing in Hellenism wasn't a problem if you adhered to the Apostolic Decree. The understanding that Hellenism was no longer abominable to the original followers of Jesus eliminated the "spiritual racism" that existed among the ethnically Jewish adherents of the Jesus movement. The Apostolic Decree made it possible for them to overcome this racism.

Consider this:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Matthew 23:13

Modern Christianity has degraded into a kind of "spiritual racism" in which people who admire Jesus for his teachings, but who harbour Buddhist, Wiccan, New Age and Muslim beliefs or who do not believe Jesus is "saviour" and "died for their sins" are heretics.

The real criteria should be the Apostolic Decree. The Apostolic Decree makes it possible for Christianity to expand its "family" to include these so-called "heretics." Christianity was syncretistic from the very beginning. It was never supposed to be an independent or monolithic tradition. It is the belief that Christianity is monolithic that leads to spiritual racism.

Rather than co-opting, integrating and assimilating "pagan" traditions, Christians require people to "convert" in the sense of completely abandoning their old religion.

Complete abandonment of their old traditions was not a requirement for a person's conversion to early Christianity. If it were, there would be no Christmas trees and no Easter. Many of the Gospels would not have made it into the New Testament Canon because many of them contained Hellenistic ideas that came from Greek philosophy, like Jesus saying, "the Father and I are one" and "whoever has seen me has seen the Father." Such statements were abominable to orthodox Jews.

Because of spiritual racism, Christians shut the door to the kingdom of heaven in the faces of Buddhists, Muslims, Wiccans and New Agers -- not that they are the exclusive gatekeepers to that realm anyway.

Modern Christians believe that the proclamation that "Jesus died for your sins" is the "rationality" we must all believe in and that this is more important than the mission to "expand the family" (so to speak), which I believe was the original mission of Christianity.

The death and resurrection of Jesus is old news. Judaism has already reformed and in fact this happened some 1,800-1,900 years ago, which was soon after the destruction of the Second Temple.

Christians should be focusing on opening more doors to the kingdom of God and preparing the branches of the wild olive tree for integration into the cultivated one.

People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, ‘Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.’ And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them. Mark 10:13-16

Having said all this, I would say no, it isn't about rationality. It's about belonging. The "Jewish" and "Christian" God seems to have been a family and relationship builder. It isn't necessarily whether you "believe" but also whether you "belong."

There is one reason why I didn't believe the May 21st prediction of the end of the world. It's because there's still spiritual racism among Christians and this spiritual racism was preventing the integration of Buddhists, Wiccans, New Agers and Muslims into "Christianity."

I uphold the Apostolic Decree and believe Christians have been excluding people based on the wrong criteria and shutting the doors of the kingdom in their faces. When spiritual racism disappears and Christians have opened all the doors to the kingdom, everyone who wants to be part of the family can be part of it. All barriers and walls to "belonging" will disappear and that is when I believe the end will come.

The end will come when you belong to the Great Escape Movement and when you see that everyone else who "belongs" also knows that they belong. This may coincide with the statement by some in the Eastern traditions that "you are enlightened when you see everyone else as enlightened." Well, I don't know if the inclusivistic sense of belonging to the Great Escape Movement would be a kind of enlightenment. For me, belonging is the important thing, not being enlightened. Perhaps when Christians overcome their spiritual racism that would be a kind of "enlightenment," but I call it belonging.

 

[Snoopy]

What are you doing here?

I think you'll find my subscriptions are up to date and all my paperwork is in order.

 

[Dream]

Existence is a weird topic.

 

[seattlegal]

Existence is a weird topic.

Vaj pointed these out to me a while back:

Virtual particle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[wil]

Existence is a weird topic.

Does G!d exist?

All answers are opinions obviously...

But first before my opinion is stated I'd need the OPs definiton of G!d.

 

[Amergin]

Re: Does God exi st?

Does G!d exist?

All answers are opinions obviously...

But first before my opinion is stated I'd need the OPs definition of G!d.

Much depends on a rational definition of gods or God. It is my "opinion" that gods were created in the human mind to serve as explanations for phenomena for which the cause was unknown. When no visible or observable cause could be found, humans invented gods.

Humans like the chaps above your post, based opinions on human experience. By the time of Homo habilis, humans knew that they could make tools. They could chip stones to make sharp edges to cut things like wood. They made primitive spears by shaving the end of a pole until they had a sharp point. This and stone axes were excellent weapons. Humans knew that they made them.

By the time of H. erectus, humans made various tools out of antlers, wood, stone, and found out how to make fire by rubbing wooden sticks until friction made a fire. Others later found hitting certain stone against different stone made sparks that could ignite some dry leaves and sticks. Humans by the time of H. heidelbergensis/rudolphensis overlapping early Homo sapiens idaltu, made stone knives. All of these implements and fire were clearly made by human intelligence and increasing mechanical skills.

Using humanity as their measure of reality, they assumed that some being like an advanced human made all things. All phenomena were the product of invisible "spirit" who also had human characteristics. Human intelligence was the only kind we knew about that could make things happen or design "things." Spirits had human like thoughts and intelligence. Humanity was defined only by intelligence and thought.

Spirits were many, driving wind, tides, flowing rivers, bubbling springs, growing trees and plants, and dwelt in non-human animals and human bodies activating all their functions.

Therefore, when humanity started to consider the mysterious world, the Sun, the Moon, land, seas, mountains, valleys, and movements of the Sun and stars, he/she assumed that some human-like intelligence directed it. It was assumed that such a complicated creature as humans could only be made by something like a super-human being. Some gigantic human must have made everything.

All is based on assumptions that are founded purely on early human experience. The universe must be made by a great human for us little humans on Earth. The spirits and gods were made in the human imagination as explanations for things beyond scientific investigation.

Now science has found rational, evidence-based explanations for most mysteries previously attributed to gods or God. We say that God has become the "God of the gaps in knowledge."

That does not provide a satisfactory explanation for how the Universe first formed. We do not know what caused the Big Bang or what was "there" before the Bang. We know much of what happened after the Bang. We know about expansion of space, formation of proto-stars, elements, more stars, and planets. We know the general stages of biological evolution from microbes to multicellular plants, fungi, and animals.

We know that evolution occurred. We know that it was a process of natural selection of offspring, which produced many variants of which the most adaptable survived. There is no evidence of intelligent design in evolution. Quite contrary, most species ever evolved have gone extinct. Species development is clearly randomness from which adaptations to changed conditions favours one kind over another.

Perhaps science may not be able to answer the question. Of what or who ignited the Big Bang. Something did so. We can call that mysterious unknown, a God or simply natural non-conscious forces.

If there is a God, it makes no sense to assume human personality characteristics. Humans evolved on a planet with specific characteristics. A God would not likely be like an old man or a beautiful giant woman. We classify everything according to humanity as the measure of reality. That is a weak assumption.

A God could be simply a creator and be conscious. However, we go overboard in making God into a super-human like JHWH, Allah, or JHWH-Christ-Spirit. We simply do not know if god is conscious or purely natural forces interacting. However the Anthropomorphic (Abrahamic) Gods seems the most unlikely to me. Why? Human characteristics are unnecessary in a universe creator.



Amergin

 

[Ahanu]

Modern Christianity has degraded into a kind of "spiritual racism" in which people who admire Jesus for his teachings, but who harbour Buddhist, Wiccan, New Age and Muslim beliefs or who do not believe Jesus is "saviour" and "died for their sins" are heretics.

I'm so using the phrase "spiritual racism" in the future.

 

[OAT]

According to the Abrahamic traditions, God has sent messengers delivering instructions on how to "escape" this world.

I find your statement weird.

Why did God put us in this world and then give instructions via messengers rather than personally? Was God not capable of giving instructions personally to each and everyone? Was God not omnipotent?

Why did God put us in this world in the first place and cause sufferings all his creation to suffer? Was he a sadist? Was the world God's only means of amusement?

Why did God put us in this world and then try to give instructions via a messenger on how to escape this world? Did God go "Oops! There was a mistake in my blueprint. So sorry guys, here's how you can get out if you are silly enough to believe my messenger. Psst, it was not my intention to give you intelligence."

 

[Saltmeister]

Why did God put us in this world in the first place and cause sufferings all his creation to suffer?

I don't know why you're accusing God of causing suffering. This world wasn't created to "cause suffering" and God has very little interaction with this world.

An atheist would ask for evidence for the existence of God. If there is no God, you cannot accuse God of causing suffering because God doesn't exist. This question you are asking here doesn't make sense because you are assuming there is a God who causes suffering. Where is the evidence for that?

You would not associate with God the responsibility for causing suffering any more than an atheist would because you know that an atheist doesn't try to explain suffering by saying God did it. This is the most conservative position you can make.

Your question is not consistent with the general consensus (atheist or theist, believer or non-believer) that God isn't responsible for the world's suffering because God's existence cannot be proven.

I think it's fairly obvious that we were put here to experience reality.

Why did God put us in this world and then give instructions via messengers rather than personally? Was God not capable of giving instructions personally to each and everyone?

Was God not omnipotent?

It's because that's the lazy and cop-out way of solving the problem. God wanted humans to figure it out for themselves. It wasn't God's responsibility, but our's to try to escape.

Abraham was the first man in Abrahamic tradition to start believing that there was only one God. God didn't force him. It was Abraham's independent opinion. Starting with Abraham, God started forming a family of monotheists. Monotheistic beliefs passed from parents to their children. Some of the descendants of Abraham found themselves in Egypt. These were the Hebrews. The pharaoh turned them into slaves to create an economic miracle. The Hebrews cried out to God for help and God put an end to this labour exploitation.

As a result, the Hebrews owed a debt to God. Without God's help, the Hebrews would have remained as slaves in Egypt for a long time. God therefore made a covenant with the Hebrews/Israelites. If they obeyed God's commandments, God would not abandon them to the mercy of the Egyptians and predator Canaanite tribes and kingdoms.

Through Islam and Christianity, God extended this family to include non-Jews.

Was he a sadist? Was the world God's only means of amusement?

Why did God put us in this world and then try to give instructions via a messenger on how to escape this world?

Since I was talking about the Abrahamic traditions, I would assume you actually knew something about them. Have you not read the Bible?

Our ancestors Adam and Eve did not start their life in this world. They lived in a Garden called Eden. God took them out of that garden and put them here because it was no longer meaningful to have a bunch of people possessing knowledge of good and evil and not to know its potential.

We're here because we have to decide what we want to learn from this experience and then figure out a way out. God may give us hints and clues along the way, but He is not supposed to tell us the answer. That would be cheating.

Did God go "Oops! There was a mistake in my blueprint. So sorry guys, here's how you can get out if you are silly enough to believe my messenger. Psst, it was not my intention to give you intelligence."

There was no mistake in our blueprint. If there was, God would make it much easier for us. It's because we're smarter than that that God has made it harder.

Adam and Eve were mindless robots in Eden. That's why as long as they didn't eat the forbidden fruit, God left them there rather than exposing them to the hardships of this world. This world is a place of personal growth and refinement. Robots don't learn and grow. Humans do.

Adam and Eve weren't "human" in the sense we know until they ate the forbidden fruit. Adam and Eve became "human." They became smart and when that happened, it was no longer right for them to stay in Eden.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Why did God put us in this world and then give instructions via messengers rather than personally? Was God not capable of giving instructions personally to each and everyone? Was God not omnipotent?

God gives us instruction daily, only we thick headed humans are responsible for recognizing his guidance and then living according to life instruction . It's laid out in the law of cause and effect. We live in a mechanical world with consequences. Our actions and our ability to learn from our mistakes 'should' be enough to help us grow and escape our destructive tendencies.

Why did God put us in this world in the first place and cause sufferings all his creation to suffer? Was he a sadist? Was the world God's only means of amusement?

We desire freedom, but with that freedom comes a price. Suffering is by and large caused by mankind's want for power and the desire to rule over other living beings. It is only when we forsake the need to control that we find ourselves in harmony with creation. Even so, mankind can be thick headed, stubborn, and prideful. We were placed in this world to learn how to live effectively and peacefully with one another, but in order to do so we are required to submit and humble ourselves to the ways of God, which are fairly clear if you pay attention to the way life works.

Why did God put us in this world and then try to give instructions via a messenger on how to escape this world? Did God go "Oops! There was a mistake in my blueprint. So sorry guys, here's how you can get out if you are silly enough to believe my messenger. Psst, it was not my intention to give you intelligence."

It's not the world we are escaping from; it is the hell we created in the world that we are escaping from. Our intelligence 'should' make us aware of what God expects from us. It's all about common sense,man -- a broken rule a consequence. Life itself our tutor, or rather our classroom. The problem is that many of us are still in a teenage rebellion mode.

We as a collective body still have a great deal of growing up to do if we ever wish to change the hell we created on earth back to the Eden it once was. Love for others, respect for others, care & concern for others, compassion for others, and a genuine desire to submit to the lessons we learn in life is our only way out of the hell mankind has created on earth.

It's up to us to recognize and follow the instructions each of us are given daily -- The truth is that we live in a living machine (Existence) Learn how to live in harmony with the other mechanisms and you will find yourself facing much less resistance.

[youtube]Juols744nFk&feature=related[/youtube]​

 

[OAT]

I don't know why you're accusing God of causing suffering. This world wasn't created to "cause suffering" and God has very little interaction with this world.

If God exists, the buck must stop there.

An atheist would ask for evidence for the existence of God. If there is no God, you cannot accuse God of causing suffering because God doesn't exist. This question you are asking here doesn't make sense because you are assuming there is a God who causes suffering. Where is the evidence for that?

I don't assume God exists. You assumed that. I merely am showing the consequence of your assumption of the existence of God.

You would not associate with God the responsibility for causing suffering any more than an atheist would because you know that an atheist doesn't try to explain suffering by saying God did it. This is the most conservative position you can make.

Your question is not consistent with the general consensus (atheist or theist, believer or non-believer) that God isn't responsible for the world's suffering because God's existence cannot be proven.

If God exists, the buck must stop there.

I think it's fairly obvious that we were put here to experience reality.

If God exists, then he certainly did not give me the free will to choose not to be put here to experience reality. He forced it upon me.

It's because that's the lazy and cop-out way of solving the problem. God wanted humans to figure it out for themselves. It wasn't God's responsibility, but our's to try to escape.

If God exists, the buck must stop there.

Have you not read the Bible?

I've read enough of it.

Our ancestors Adam and Eve did not start their life in this world. They lived in a Garden called Eden. God took them out of that garden and put them here because it was no longer meaningful to have a bunch of people possessing knowledge of good and evil and not to know its potential.

We're here because we have to decide what we want to learn from this experience and then figure out a way out. God may give us hints and clues along the way, but He is not supposed to tell us the answer. That would be cheating.

If God exists, then he certainly did not give me the free will to choose not to be put here to experience reality. He forced it upon me.

There was no mistake in our blueprint. If there was, God would make it much easier for us. It's because we're smarter than that that God has made it harder.

Adam and Eve were mindless robots in Eden. That's why as long as they didn't eat the forbidden fruit, God left them there rather than exposing them to the hardships of this world. This world is a place of personal growth and refinement. Robots don't learn and grow. Humans do.

Adam and Eve weren't "human" in the sense we know until they ate the forbidden fruit. Adam and Eve became "human." They became smart and when that happened, it was no longer right for them to stay in Eden.

If God exists, he should be self-sufficient. Therefore, he has no need or purpose to create the heavens and the earth and all its inhabitants. Yet he did. Therefore he is not self-sufficient. Since he is not self-sufficient, he is not God.

 

[OAT]

God gives us instruction daily, only we thick headed humans are responsible for recognizing his guidance and then living according to life instruction . It's laid out in the law of cause and effect. We live in a mechanical world with consequences. Our actions and our ability to learn from our mistakes 'should' be enough to help us grow and escape our destructive tendencies.
We desire freedom, but with that freedom comes a price. Suffering is by and large caused by mankind's want for power and the desire to rule over other living beings. It is only when we forsake the need to control that we find ourselves in harmony with creation. Even so, mankind can be thick headed, stubborn, and prideful. We were placed in this world to learn how to live effectively and peacefully with one another, but in order to do so we are required to submit and humble ourselves to the ways of God, which are fairly clear if you pay attention to the way life works.

It's not the world we are escaping from; it is the hell we created in the world that we are escaping from. Our intelligence 'should' make us aware of what God expects from us. It's all about common sense,man -- a broken rule a consequence. Life itself our tutor, or rather our classroom. The problem is that many of us are still in a teenage rebellion mode.

We as a collective body still have a great deal of growing up to do if we ever wish to change the hell we created on earth back to the Eden it once was. Love for others, respect for others, care & concern for others, compassion for others, and a genuine desire to submit to the lessons we learn in life is our only way out of the hell mankind has created on earth.

It's up to us to recognize and follow the instructions each of us are given daily -- The truth is that we live in a living machine (Existence) Learn how to live in harmony with the other mechanisms and you will find yourself facing much less resistance.

Why do you think there is need for God, if he exists, to create us in the first place?

 

[Saltmeister]

I don't assume God exists. You assumed that. I merely am showing the consequence of your assumption of the existence of God.

Because we are talking about the Abrahamic faiths, the existence is God is implicit in the discussion. The existence of God is simply irrelevant to your argument.

Suffering is not a consequence of the existence of God. The suffering in the world would be the same whether or not there is or isn't a God. The existence of God does not increase or decrease suffering in the world. I was merely showing why your point was irrelevant.

If God exists, the buck must stop there.

Explain.

If God exists, then he certainly did not give me the free will to choose not to be put here to experience reality. He forced it upon me.

Free will has nothing to do with the environment in which you were born. Free will is a property of your cognitive autonomy, your ability to make decisions, to learn, your ability to develop a sense of self and to be conscious of your own mental state. Where you are and where you live is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with your environment or location. If you were born in a particular country, that is not a violation of your free will. You would not protest to your government, "why did you put my here?"

In fact, you can never actually choose the location of your creation because you can't choose where you will be created because you don't exist until you've been made and you have to be made somewhere. It is only after you have been created that you can choose where you want to go.

God owes you nothing. Humans have lived for generations without God. We have learnt to be independent and therefore God doesn't owe us anything. When you leave the home of your parents, you absolve your parents of the responsibility of caring for you.

Your parents were not God. They were human and therefore they, not God had the responsibility to look after you when you were young. Because we have been descendants of human parents for so long and have learnt to be independent, God no longer owes us the care that would be required of your human parents. Your human parents replaced God.

If God exists, he should be self-sufficient. Therefore, he has no need or purpose to create the heavens and the earth and all its inhabitants. Yet he did. Therefore he is not self-sufficient. Since he is not self-sufficient, he is not God.

Self-sufficiency is not an essential or necessary property of God. If the Abrahamic God is not self-sufficient, then so be it. The Abrahamic God is simply the supreme and most powerful entity in the universe, who existed before all of creation. If this is our God, then we must negotiate with Him, regardless of whatever less desirable qualities this God may have.

 

[OAT]

Because we are talking about the Abrahamic faiths,

I wasn't talking specifically about the Abrahamic faiths. You were. I merely tagged along.

Free will has nothing to do with the environment in which you were born.

I was not referring to the environment, I was referring to being created, based on your assumption that the Abrahamic God created man.

Self-sufficiency is not an essential or necessary property of God. If the Abrahamic God is not self-sufficient, then so be it.

It just don't make sense to me that an almighty and all-knowing God should not be self-sufficient. No problem for me even if you don't agree with me.