Jesus and the "I AM"

I didn't expect that you were putting the "I am not..." sentence from #13 into the category of an "I AM" statement!
#77, yes, is much more like the grandiose claims of the Johannine Jesus. But this is from "2nd Thomas" (the sayings found only in Coptic) which is considerately later in date than "1st Thomas" (the sayings found in both Greek and Coptic).
 
Bob, is true... I am merely pointing out the fact that ancient non-canonical works contain the Phrase. In the context of 13, some believe it to be interpreted as a claim that considering Jesus as Teacher or Master is wrong... it is the Lord himself speaking.
 
some believe it to be interpreted as a claim that considering Jesus as Teacher or Master is wrong... it is the Lord himself speaking.
Or quite the contrary: that you should not single out Jesus as your "teacher" but be taught only by the Lord.
 
I have a related question. When Jesus says "I and the Father are one" is that a broader reference to the Divine than if he were to say "I and the LORD are one?" I'm asking, because there are some scholars in this forum. I'm asking because Christianity talks about gentiles and Jews, and further justification of my question is that Genesis 4:26 comes to the end of a geneology and then says "At that time men began to call upon the name of the LORD." 'LORD' came into use after the term 'Father'? Perhaps, as Augustine would say it is not talking about time but about derivation. Perhaps it is saying that LORD is a term that speaks more to the Jew than to other people?
 
So are they the same "I AM" ?
Yes


John.8


  1. [12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
  2. [16] And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
  3. [18] I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
  4. [23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
  5. [24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
 
John.18


[4] Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
[5] They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, "I am" he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
[6] As soon then as he had said unto them, "I am" he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
[7] Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
[8] Jesus answered, I have told you that "I am" he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
 
Well the billion dollar question........

Can God (or his Son) utter "I AM" in hebrew or aramaic?

I doubt it !!


why not ?

and will you give me a billion dollars if I can answer the question ?
 
Yes


John.8


  1. [12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
  2. [16] And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
  3. [18] I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
  4. [23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
  5. [24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


Can you elaborate on why they are the same ?

Since the Old Testament was written In Hebew and the New in Greek so how does this equate ?
 
The Word Of God

Assuming you're talking about the bible, which of the estimated 450 historical English translations do you feel is the most accurate representation of "the Word of God"?

I'm fluent in Spanish; when I watch a Spanish movie with English sub-titles oftentimes the subtleties are lost in translation and don't make sense. Assuming the original biblical writings were from God or inspired by God (a big assumption), do you think anything has been added/deleted/edited/lost in translation over the years from God's orinigal word? (which of course, wasn't written in English)
 
IG --

Sound thinking, me bucko! From the spiritual side the Word of G!d is Christ Jesus per John, and as undying and eternal speaks to us still (Inner Light, That of G!d in Everyone, The Still Small Voice Within... there a a lot of metaphors). So add it it that esoterically the "Word of G!d" may have several million versions.

From the left-brain point of view (I hope I have that right) there is real good evidence that much "has been added/deleted/edited/lost in translation over the years".

Pax et amor vincunt omnia--radarmark
 
IG --

Sound thinking, me bucko! From the spiritual side the Word of G!d is Christ Jesus per John, and as undying and eternal speaks to us still (Inner Light, That of G!d in Everyone, The Still Small Voice Within... there a a lot of metaphors). So add it it that esoterically the "Word of G!d" may have several million versions.

From the left-brain point of view (I hope I have that right) there is real good evidence that much "has been added/deleted/edited/lost in translation over the years".

Pax et amor vincunt omnia--radarmark
I have a good question if the male is half of the whole and onesss with his female counterpart is whole brain consciousness , being half are men the left or right side of the brain
 
I know many thinks otherwise, but there is a large consensus (not just among theologians) who argue that the Gospel of John is most lilkely a first-person testimony. Certainly, no other source has a greater appeal to authorship than the 'beloved disciple'.

It differs from the others for that very reason, they are all records of an oral tradition. John has a number of significant differences — the number of visits to Jerusalem, for one, and the dating of the Last Supper another — and his gospel is dotted with the kind of incidental detail that point to a first-hand account — his materials certainly did not derive from the same sources as the Synoptics. (And like Luke these details were refuted until backed by archaeological evidence.)

John's Gospel, as well as being revelation, is also a reasoned and inspired theological reflection upon the life, words and works of Christ. John says as much himself (20:9), and there's every reason to suppose that this went on throughout the lives of the disciples.

It was regarded from the very beginning as something more than the Synoptics, Origen refers to it as the 'firstfruits' of the Gospels, the Greek and Russian Orthodox patriarchates refer to John as the Divine and the Theologian to mark him apart from the synoptic authors.

In his own day, John was combatting a nascent, essentially dualist (therefore non-Hebraic) teaching that emerged so strongly among the 'Gnostics' of the 2nd century and later. This sought to separate Jesus from Christ, earth from heaven, man from God. Thus his message focused on the humanity and the divinity of Our Lord, and his insights in this regard also revealed a more discreet doctrine, that of the Holy Spirit and the triune God, which may well be said to comprise the content of Christian esoterism. Certainly, the Trinity and the Incarnation are the two mysteries that lie at the heart of the ancient and authentic Christian doctrine.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Like Matthew, John contains three sorts of material: narrative, sayings, and "special" material. Unlike Matthew, there is no linguistic distinction among the three: in Matthew, the narrative is an alteration of Mark, with some grammatical cleanup and some revisions to favored word-usages of the editor; the quotations are a translation from a Hebrew/Aramaic source which was previously a stand-alone document; while "special Matthew" is written by someone who knows no Hebrew or Aramaic, only the Greek Scriptures. In John, the "Passion" narrative, the "Discourses" excursions, and the "Signs" material are all in the same dialect of Greek, but this does not necessarily mean they are all from one source; it could be that one editor has re-written it all in his own style. The "Passion" is well-preserved old material, with a detailed knowledge of the 1st-century circumstances. The "Signs" may have existed as a stand-alone document: the "Eggerton gospel" is another example of this genre (a series of disconnected wonder stories). The "Discourse" is very late: as Thomas acknowledges, it is a reaction to 2nd-century ideological developments of the type which did not exist when any of Jesus' original disciples were alive.
 
Hi Bob X —
Like Matthew, John contains three sorts of material: narrative, sayings, and "special" material...
But none of that precludes John from being a first-person witness. Indeed, he is the only one to make such a claim, and that claim was believed by the tradition. There is no evidence to suppose otherwise.

The "Discourse" is very late: as Thomas acknowledges, it is a reaction to 2nd-century ideological developments of the type which did not exist when any of Jesus' original disciples were alive.
Hmm, not sure I'd go that far.

The ideology of the 2nd century was there in the 1st, indeed it's there in pre-Christian Hellenic (and presumably Hebrew speculative) thinking.

I would also add that because something is late, that does not mean it was not there previously. Indeed, as the Christian was bound to an oath of secrecy, it's no surprise that the more 'esoteric' statements were not included in the earliest texts.

The discourse on the Eucharist in John, for example, is absolutely incendiary, and I'm guessing might not have appeared in any written account without it first being in the public domain, as it were, as was the case with a number of teachings considered part of the disciplina arcani.

John's Gospel is timeless in that regard, combatting the secular rationalisation of the religious message in its own day, and which has marked every major paradigm shift in Christianity in the West down through the ages.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Hi Bob X —

But none of that precludes John from being a first-person witness. Indeed, he is the only one to make such a claim,
The book says "This is the one who told us these things and wrote them down." That sentence, at least, is obviously by somebody writing after John is dead, by an anonymous "us" (the "Johannine community" lead by people like Papias and Polycarp in Asia Minor). It can be read as saying that John wrote the whole book, as well as orally teaching these things; but I would read it as saying that the book is a mixture of an old writing plus oral traditions which they believed to go back to John-- with all of the "Chinese whispers" problem that involves.
and that claim was believed by the tradition.
Which impresses you much more than it does me. The early Christian tradition showed little concern about whether texts were authentic or pseudepigraphic, only about whether they liked the ideological content. "2nd Peter" is the most notorious case along this line: Origen pointed out that it had no chain of provenance going back to Peter, but approved it as doctrinally sound; Jerome marked it with asterisks, like the spurious ending of Mark and the "Esdras" books and "Prayer of Manasseh"; Eusebius says that its authorship by Peter was "flatly rejected by the ancient sources"-- but it was canon by then. Nearer to this particular subject, the Muratorian Canon says "We receive an epistle saying it is by John, and one with 'John' in the superscription, as we receive the Wisdom of Solomon, written by men of friendly spirit in such name." I read this (others would not translate the sentence quite as I have; I am giving my usual tendentious opinion) to mean, "Sure, 1st and 2nd John are pseudepigrapha, but then we know the book of Wisdom isn't really by Solomon, and so what?"
There is no evidence to suppose otherwise.
Writing c. 100 on the subject of what books there are for Christians to read, Papias contrasts the narrative gospel of Mark with the "sayings" gospel of Matthew, and says nothing about any "Luke" or "John"; rather, he says that he does not put much stock in any books at all, preferring the "living tradition". Polycarp, writing in an answer to the Philippians' question specifically about what books they should read, commends the epistles of Paul, which he assumes they already have, the epistles of Ignatius, which he says he is enclosing, and the preachings of Zosimus and Rufus, whoever they are. Neither of them seems to have heard of the gospel of John, or else, don't think it worth mentioning-- and these were the leaders of the Johannines at the time. I do not think the Johannines bothered to put their gospel into written form until later than this.

But it would not have been much later: we do have a papyrus fragment from the 120's (approx.) with a few lines from the trial before Pilate, echoing some verses from John but notably, skipping some verses. Pilate says "Are you a king? What is the truth?" without a break. In John as we have it, after "Are you a king?" we get some "Discourse" material, "Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world; if it were of this world, my disciples would have fought for me." This is clearly a later interpolation, and the same is likely to hold true for ALL the "Discourses" material. The gospel and epistles of John, more than any NT books except Acts, remained "open" books for a long time: that is, one to which copyists felt free to add new material rather than copying faithfully. The "women taken in adultery", added in the 5th century, and the "three witnesses in heaven", added to 1st John in the 7th (!) century, are the most blatant examples; but there is also the creation of "3rd John" (not sure when that popped up, but early sources don't know of it), the addition of the "Logos" hymn to the beginning sometime after Tatian in the mid-1st century (he quotes it with the phrase "as it is said" rather than "as it is written"; the Logos hymn is old, probably the liturgical hymn referred to in Pliny's letter to Trajan, but its addition to the gospel text was late); and chapter 21 certainly looks like a late tack-on (chapter 20 ends with a conventional "wrap-up").
The ideology of the 2nd century was there in the 1st, indeed it's there in pre-Christian Hellenic (and presumably Hebrew speculative) thinking.
No, it really wasn't. The notion that the "demiurge" (God's instrument for creating the world) became prideful and thought of itself as the true God, turning into an enemy of God, is the specific ideological thrust that John is combatting with the identification of Jesus as both God's instrument of creation and supremely holy rather than misguided. And this particular ideology is a 2nd-century development, with the propagandistic motive of accepting monotheism from the Jewish tradition while repudiating the Jewish God as a "fake" God; it is part of the fallout from the bar-Kochba rebellion, when it became politically difficult to be a patriotic Roman and a Jewish sympathizer at the same time.
 
I like it when Thomas and Bob x engage: it has an epic tone to it, as if all the Church Father theologians have manifested in Thomas and all the skeptical scholars have manifested in Bob x :)D).
 
I like it when Thomas and Bob x engage: it has an epic tone to it, as if all the Church Father theologians have manifested in Thomas and all the skeptical scholars have manifested in Bob x :)D).
I have a similar admiration for thier discussions.

However for me, I don't see Bobx as any kind of a skeptic, but as a biblical historian, and Thomas as a seeker, married to his tradition, educated through it, often defending, but the seeker is in there.

In any case, most often on these discussions, mine is to sit aside and read and learn.
 
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