biblical phophecies

IowaGuy

IowaGuy

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Some Christians use fulfillment of biblical prophecies as "proof" that the bible is the word of God. I was recently asked by a relative, after telling her that I don't interpret the bible as the literal word of God (or even inspired by God), "well, how do you explain why so many biblical prophecies have been fulfilled if the bible is not the word of God?"

All of her proofs, however, used circular reasoning: using the bible (NT) to prove the bible (OT).

My question to the forum: can anyone provide me with examples of exterior sources (not from the bible or other biblical apocrypha) that document fulfillment of any biblical prophecies?
 
IowaGuy said:
Some Christians use fulfillment of biblical prophecies as "proof" that the bible is the word of God. I was recently asked by a relative, after telling her that I don't interpret the bible as the literal word of God (or even inspired by God), "well, how do you explain why so many biblical prophecies have been fulfilled if the bible is not the word of God?"
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All of the predictions in the Bible were fulfilled at some point in the long past, or if recent they are couched in symbolic language. All recent fulfillments are taken from symbolic language and/or are secondary fulfillments called 'Double fulfillments'. A double fulfillment is the basis of most interpretations and hangs upon an interpretation of the phrase "First in the natural then in the spiritual," quoting from I Corinthians 15:45. Its when a prophecy is considered to have been fulfilled twice: first physically and then spiritually.

The first fulfillment is a matter of Biblical record somewhere in the OT such as when Israel is led out of Egypt after 400 years as slaves, fulfilling Abraham's prophecy that this would take place. The second fulfillment is spiritually discernable only, and in Matthew it is fulfilled when baby Jesus is taken out of Egypt. The fulfillments in Matthew are an example. Another way to say it is that they fulfill the typology of an event. Another example is the way that Jesus life is similar to the life of Joseph, son of Rebecca. Jesus fulfills the typology of Joseph's life. If you read the story of Joseph's life you'll see how Jesus then follows in his footsteps. The reason your relative said 'So many Biblical prophecies have been fulfilled' is that Jesus fulfills a large number of typologies, mostly double fulfillments.

All of her proofs, however, used circular reasoning: using the bible (NT) to prove the bible (OT).
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Reason and rationality are only skin deep, and its morality that convicts and transforms. Reasoning as you understand it is not really how the Bible is proven. Your friend believes because of a direct spiritual experience and/or because morality has convinced them. God has convinced them. The most popular author who claims that the Bible can prove you should believe in Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior is Josh McDowel, and it could be because of him that your relative is confusing fulfillment of typologies with fulfillment of predictions.
 
My question to the forum: can anyone provide me with examples of exterior sources (not from the bible or other biblical apocrypha) that document fulfillment of any biblical prophecies?
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Bullinger discusses some of them, google his name
 
people claim the same thing about the quran, and there is allways nostradamus I put it down mostly to creative interpretation and wanting to believe.

and even if prophecies do come true it does not prove its from god.
 
NiceCupOfTea said:
people claim the same thing about the quran, and there is allways nostradamus I put it down mostly to creative interpretation and wanting to believe.

and even if prophecies do come true it does not prove its from god.
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Can you literally do miracles? Miracles being bodily transformations by a light that is a power referred to by the holy spirit. Since people cannot it makes sense that there is a higher divine power(s). There are too many witnesses to these events to deny it but I am guessing you may be one of the people that has to see it to believe it.

As far as prophecies from the divine, they are meant to serve a purpose for divine salvation and progression through enlightenment. Divine events can be battles between good and bad forces, lessons, revealing of truths ect. It is all a part of the plan of salvation. However your entitled to your own beliefs and path to that enlightenment. Not believing doesnt change facts. I am not one of those people that believe that each person has the power to make their own reality but that there are divine scientific laws as to why things work certain ways.
 
On the other hand, miracles can just be fallout from a violation of The Prime Directive... because to the less technologically advanced, what is the difference between magic and technology.

Miracles happen every day, all around us. They are not something merely historical (that is one of the big shortcomings of mainstream Christianity, a constant reference to the past). Like Christ and the Pentacost, miracles are part of the texture and tapestry of the Kosmos.

Pax et amore vincunt omnia.... radarmark
 
radarmark said:
On the other hand, miracles can just be fallout from a violation of The Prime Directive... because to the less technologically advanced, what is the difference between magic and technology.

Miracles happen every day, all around us. They are not something merely historical (that is one of the big shortcomings of mainstream Christianity, a constant reference to the past). Like Christ and the Pentacost, miracles are part of the texture and tapestry of the Kosmos.

Pax et amore vincunt omnia.... radarmark
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Everything is made up of energy so miracles would surpass technology because people would be able to use their own energy to create :) when they become that advanced.
 
Dream said:
All of the predictions in the Bible were fulfilled at some point in the long past, or if recent they are couched in symbolic language. All recent fulfillments are taken from symbolic language and/or are secondary fulfillments called 'Double fulfillments'. A double fulfillment is the basis of most interpretations and hangs upon an interpretation of the phrase "First in the natural then in the spiritual," quoting from I Corinthians 15:45. Its when a prophecy is considered to have been fulfilled twice: first physically and then spiritually.
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Speaking of the physical and spiritual. Corinthians 15:45 mentions first a physical existence and later a spiritual existence. Apart from mention of a Holy Spirit is any overt mention of the two existences coinciding in the NT?
 
mojobadshah said:
Speaking of the physical and spiritual. Corinthians 15:45 mentions first a physical existence and later a spiritual existence. Apart from mention of a Holy Spirit is any overt mention of the two existences coinciding in the NT?
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Out of curiosity if women are the problem why does it seem most of the aggression is with the men,just curious? So Adam did know better and stilll does?
 
Dream said:
The first fulfillment is a matter of Biblical record somewhere in the OT such as when Israel is led out of Egypt after 400 years as slaves, fulfilling Abraham's prophecy that this would take place.
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Is there any historical evidence that the Jews were in fact enslaved by Egypt for 400 years or that there was an exodus?

NiceCupOfTea said:
people claim the same thing about the quran, and there is allways nostradamus I put it down mostly to creative interpretation and wanting to believe.

and even if prophecies do come true it does not prove its from god.
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Didn't Jesus even do certain things so his actions could be construed as fullfilling prophecy?
 
Given the intense pressure of the Romans on the Jews in 73 and 135 coupled with the Pauline thrust of a Gospel for the Nations, I think it is very likely a great many of the "prophecy fulfillments" were added to texts.

Both sub-centers of Christianity (Antioch and Alexandria) had scholars pretty well versed in both the Greek and Hebrew version of the OT... and as time passed and the focus shifted to the Nations and Roman terror focused on the People, the early Christian writers liberally sprinkled in what prophecies they could (the important ones, which Jesus clearly did not fulfill from the Jewish point of view, couldn't be addressed.

So the Synoptics and John were both influenced by Paul's letters, the brutality of the 73 revolt, and the non-Jerusalemic influences of Antioch and Alexandria. The Kochba revolt and Irenaeus (because of his focus on heresy) nailed the lid tightly in place. That is the notion of Jesus being the Jewish Messiah (to link the new movement to Judaism) yet founding "a new law" (to not link it too closely, for fear the Romans will destroy the new movement) became Dogma.

I am not claiming it happened that way, but it could be.

Pax et armore vincunt omnia... radarmark
 
wil said:
Is there any historical evidence that the Jews were in fact enslaved by Egypt for 400 years or that there was an exodus?

Didn't Jesus even do certain things so his actions could be construed as fullfilling prophecy?
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Its not hard to know gods actions. You take holy light , the most powerful force that exists , this light can destroy the opposing light which harms people , environment ect.
 
donnann said:
Out of curiosity if women are the problem why does it seem most of the aggression is with the men,just curious? So Adam did know better and stilll does?
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I have no idea what that has to do with my question, but I think that it's the cheap asses that are the problem. They'll do anything to save or make a buck even if that means lying. For example brainwashing people into believing in a primal motivation that no one can prove exists, and encouraging blind faith over good faith to keep people in the dark.
 
Although it doesn't directly answer Iwoaguy's question, the mark of the beast prophecy, is, IMO, one prophecy that is pretty hard to dismiss.

For people's reference, it says the anti-christ (final world leader) ''will cause all to receive a mark in their right hand or forehead without which no man can buy or sell''.

People offer fanciful theories about how this is purely a spiritual mark, but that tends to completely fall apart when held up to the part about not being able to buy and sell without it. Similarly, people will say the mark was something to do with Emporer Nero, but that again doesn't deal with everyone needing this mark, in order to buy or sell, etc. Some say it's social security, still others some other government number, again looking over the obvious, ''you can't buy or sell without it''.

Money has gone through an evolution of sorts, from gold/silver, to cheap metals, to paper, plastic, now internet, and phone banking. There are night clubs in Europe where goes can have the option of having a microchip implanted in their arm, which basically acts similarly to the chip on a debit/credit card. That, IMO, is the future of money. Cash, cheques, cards, are outdated, and a chip is very efficent, and cuts down on a whole host of problems that they system faces when usuing physical money. It's only a matter of time before they realize that a chip in the hand is many times more convenient to wave, than to have someone scan your arm for each purchase.

Jesus spoke about the need to live by faith, he challenged people to not work for money (Matthew 6:24). He said that God would provide for us if we seek to work for love. When the mark comes, those who don't take it will need to live by faith.

Anyway, I thought this prophecy is a good one to discuss, precisely because it is basically being fulfilled before our very ideas.
 
ciel_perdy said:
Although it doesn't directly answer Iwoaguy's question, the mark of the beast prophecy, is, IMO, one prophecy that is pretty hard to dismiss.
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I'm glad you brought up Revelations, as many conservative Christians do believe that the poetry in that book is God's Word and are waiting for those prophecies to be fulfilled. As a child raised in a Southern Baptist family, Revelations was my favorite book of the bible; although my parents refused to answer any of my questions about the scripture in Revelations. I let my childhood imagination run wild with all the imagery of beasts, white horses, dragons, angels, etc.

If you're worried about "microchip implantation" possibly being the mark of the beast, can't you just put the chip in your left hand? Revelations 13 specifically states that the right hand will be used for the mark of the beast.

And if you believe the mark of the beast prophecy is currently being fulfilled, then logically you would also believe that the First Seal (the coming of the antichrist in Revelations 6) has already been opened? Who/what do you believe to be the Antichrist that has now been unleashed upon the earth? Should we be looking for the 144,000 Jehova Witnesses to arrive shortly? (Revelations 7) Do you consider yourself one of these 144,000?

Why believe in Revelations at all? I mean, do you believe the rest of the bible at face value? For example, if you don't believe homosexual activity should be punished by death (Leviticus 20:13), then why believe Revelations? How do you pick and choose which scripture to believe and which not to believe? Flip a coin? To me, the book of Revelations sounds just as ridiculous as does Leviticus 20:13.

In my opinion belief in the predictions of Revelations is a great example of self-fulfilling prophecy. A person can justify just about anything they want in the Revelations poetry if they feel it fulfills holy scripture. This "doomsday" mentality could potentially be very dangerous if it fuels religious warfare or irrational political behavior.

Revelations is a book that the bible editors should have left out of the bible along with all the other apocrypha, IMHO. For those that believe in Revelations, do you also believe prophecies in apocrypha that wasn't included in the bible?
 
Look up the beliefs of the Ethiopean, Armenian, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox vis a vis Revelations. Ethiopeans did not even have it in their Bible until they began a program of ecuminicalism with the Coptics. Armenians sy don't bother with it because it is just a history of the early churches in metaphor (and since they are the first nation to convert and the church has operated since then, its a pretty good sign as to how they viewed in pre any ecumenical council). Oriental and Eastern Orthodox exclude it from litergy (never read in chirch). And I think the Oriental Orthodox say do not even read it until you are 36 (kinda like Zohar).

Anyway, there are enough early Christian traditions that "kinda-sorta" reject it (and none of those groups are literalists... I think we owe Luther thanks for that and Marge McDonalkd for the Revelation escatology).

Pax et amore omnia vincunt. Radarmark
 
IowaGuy said:
I'm glad you brought up Revelations, as many conservative Christians do believe that the poetry in that book is God's Word and are waiting for those prophecies to be fulfilled. As a child raised in a Southern Baptist family, Revelations was my favorite book of the bible; although my parents refused to answer any of my questions about the scripture in Revelations. I let my childhood imagination run wild with all the imagery of beasts, white horses, dragons, angels, etc.

If you're worried about "microchip implantation" possibly being the mark of the beast, can't you just put the chip in your left hand? Revelations 13 specifically states that the right hand will be used for the mark of the beast.

And if you believe the mark of the beast prophecy is currently being fulfilled, then logically you would also believe that the First Seal (the coming of the antichrist in Revelations 6) has already been opened? Who/what do you believe to be the Antichrist that has now been unleashed upon the earth? Should we be looking for the 144,000 Jehova Witnesses to arrive shortly? (Revelations 7) Do you consider yourself one of these 144,000?

Why believe in Revelations at all? I mean, do you believe the rest of the bible at face value? For example, if you don't believe homosexual activity should be punished by death (Leviticus 20:13), then why believe Revelations? How do you pick and choose which scripture to believe and which not to believe? Flip a coin? To me, the book of Revelations sounds just as ridiculous as does Leviticus 20:13.

In my opinion belief in the predictions of Revelations is a great example of self-fulfilling prophecy. A person can justify just about anything they want in the Revelations poetry if they feel it fulfills holy scripture. This "doomsday" mentality could potentially be very dangerous if it fuels religious warfare or irrational political behavior.

Revelations is a book that the bible editors should have left out of the bible along with all the other apocrypha, IMHO. For those that believe in Revelations, do you also believe prophecies in apocrypha that wasn't included in the bible?
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My, my, a lot of questions... Considering you have stated that you the book of Revelation is 'riduclous', and that it should have 'been left out of the bible', I can't see how me answering your questions about a book that a: you find ridiculous, and b; one you think should not even BE in the bible, is really going to go anywhere fruitful.

I will say however, that the reason pretty much WHY it goes over the heads of most people, is because there are very few people who sincerely practice the teachings of Jesus. The Revelation is not for anyone who wants to pick it up, and 'crack the code'. It says at the beginning that it is a revelation to the servants of Jesus Christ, as such people who are sincerely seeking to obey his teachings will understand the revelation. For after all, it is basically a revelation of him, his teachings, our world and the world to come, and what transpires in that transition.
 
ciel_perdy said:
Considering you have stated that you the book of Revelation is 'riduclous', and that it should have 'been left out of the bible'
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OK, I'll tone down my rhetoric a bit. But do you not think that Leviticus 20:13 is ridiculous? Or do you think homosexual acts should be punished with the death penalty? (Leviticus 20:13 is what I compared Revelations to, i.e. that we shouldn't take everything the bible says as literal interpretation). Most Christians that I know say they don't take Revelations as literal events that are going to happen, but instead that everything is metaphor. But if you want to think, per Revelations, that 10-headed beasts are going to come down to earth along with men on white and red horses and and destroy everything in their path then you are certainly entitled to that belief. It just sounds ridiculous to me.

The interpretation as metaphor is what leads to the self-fulfilling prophecy. You say the sign of the beast is being fulfilled because nightclubs in Europe put "payment microchips" in people. I stated they could just put the chip in the left hand and, no problem. Definitely not the sign of the beast if it's in the left hand not the right, correct?

Others say the droughts, floods, tsunamis, etc are a sign of the impending rapture; and reference the prophecies in Revelations as their source for this. That's why I think it would have been better to leave Revelations out of the modern bible (along with Deuteronomy). And instead focus on Jesus' teachings of peace, love, etc. Not the destruction and fear of Revelations.

How does reading and believing Revelations make anyone a better person here on this planet, in this present moment? How does it encourage anyone to help out their fellow mankind in need? I actually can't see anything positive that comes from reading Revelations; please correct me if I'm wrong.

I guess I'm more of a believer in the "red letter" parts of the bible. I personally put more weight on the things that Jesus actually said rather than John's predictions (scholars disagree on who "John" actually was) of horrific future events on earth. Why do you think Revelations is the Word of God? Just because it made it into the bible? Are the other apocrypha God's Word also? Is anything in the bible not God's Word?

As you have obviously studied Revelations, and seem to have a loving heart and compassion for your fellow man; I would be interested in your opinion on my questions raised in my previous post. I'm not trying to attack anyone's views here; but I do have some strong opinions about the prophecies of Revelations :)
 
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