Living by faith

[wil]

As I see it the world needs garbage collectors, but it wouldn't work if everyone were one. We need farmers, but again, farmers need carpenters, and someone to build machinery for them.

The monastic life is not for everyone, neither is the choice that ceil has made....I think we should honor it, not envy it, not demean it, but honor it....as an admirable choice.

 

[ciel_perdy]

IowaGuy wrote:

Many people work for money which is then used to feed their family and also make the world a better place. Plus the taxes paid on their wages help support many social causes such as food stamps, health insurance for the poor/elderly, etc. This is a good thing, IMHO..

People work for money because with it they can do what they like, it represents some from of power. Sure, they may use it to provide for thier families, sounds noble, but who chose to have the family in the first place and why? The above is the main motivation that the majority of people work for money. When possible they MAY use some of it to 'help make the world a better place', but who really ever gets around to doing more than donating a few dollars to a charity that uses most of it's donations to cover it's overheads? I'm from the UK, and the majority of people there are too busy struggling in crap jobs, working for money in a job they hate, trying to make ends meet, look after their kids, and perhaps have enough to buy some clothes and a pint at the pub. Helping others and changing the world really is not on the radar for most people.

You know that most tax money goes towards the military.

In fact, if people made more money we could have even more tax revenue to put towards social programs

And here is the fundamental flaw. It is because of greed, man's desire for money and all that it can buy, that we have the problems that we face in the world. If greed (and by effect the need for money) is the problem (which I see it as being), money cannot be the solution.

Native Americans believed basically the same about the Great Spirit (excpet for they didn't have to work for Him to get their food/clothes). Hunter-gatherer societies across the world fed & clothed themselves for 200,000 years before Jesus was ever on the scene.

Except for that doesn't work so well anymore in a world of 7 billion people... But now you blame their fellow man for not helping out?

I'm not talking about hunter-gatherer societies. Just being able to get food and clothes without working for money proves nothing about one's spiritual state and motivation. There are plenty of selfish/lazy people who do just this. Jesus however was teaching that if you work for God, you don't even need to stress/worry about hunting and gathering, he just said, ''work for God, get busy showing love for others, and God will provide for you''. But who wants to see past the false illusion of money, in order to be a part of the spiritual Kingdom that is here and that will come?

OK, so how about a schoolteacher, do you believe they are helping others in society? How about a doctor, is she helping others? Homebuilders, are they helping provide shelter for society? The guy that installs your Internet connection so you can post to this forum and learn more about others' belief systems, is he helping others? Farmers so people can eat healthy, affordable food? The person who works in a factory making medicine? The researcher working on a cure for diseases? The list goes on and on...

Yes, there are many people in paid jobs who's jobs benifit others. However, take doctors for example. Doctors make a LOT of money. A lot of people go into that profession to make a lot of money. They may have some desire to help people and that's great, but Jesus said love and greed are mutually exclusive reasons for doing something, so they will need to work out why they are there. There are so many doctors in the west per person, why? because they make a lot of money. If truly helping others was top of their list of priorities, then perhaps they could use their expertise in the 3rd world, where their help would truly be needed. Ditto with teachers, etc. There will always be people to take their place in the comfortable affluent west, so no need to worry that if they went to a poorer country that those stuggling souls in the UK or US would be without.

Money is not the issue. You apparently connect money with greed, which is not the case for many people in this world (although I admit there are way too many that love money). People that work for the love of money, yes that is wrong IMHO.

Define what working for the love of money is?

But many people work at a cause they are passionate about, which benefits society and which also allows them to meet their life's basic necessities; similar to what you are doing by "volunteering." Plus their taxes are used to benefit society at large.

I disagree, the majority of people work in jobs they hate, just to make money. Do you think there really are passionate hamburger flippers, coffee pourers, street sweepers? The reality is the majority of people never work in a job they are passionate about, they have to settle for whatever will bring in money. Sure, they may learn to 'suffer' their job with a slightly glad heart, but I think you are kidding yourself if you think most people do something they are passionate about.

The cool thing about what Jesus taught though, is that if there was no money and we all worked for love, sharing all the resources, not only would people have the opportunity to do what they love, but because love is the motivation and not simply greed and getting money, people would still do all the other needful jobs like sweeping, cleaning toilets etc, with a joyful heart. Beautiful!

But there are many in this world whose needs are not met, you have acknowledged many in Africa are in need. Are you suggesting they are not working for Jesus or freely loving others?

No I am not suggesting that. Their needs are not met, because people don't care. I am sure the poor and starving have more faith in God than most people. Jesus said, ''blessed are ye poor for yours in the Kingdom of Heaven'', ''blessed are ye that hunger now for ye shall be filled''. While I believe it's our responsibility to help the poor, I also believe that God will lift them up and they will inherit everlasting happiness. Jesus also told another story about how the poor who have experienced bad things in this life, will be lifted up and given paradise in the next. I am saying all of this, because it shows God's love for them, that there will be an end to their suffering, and that paradise awaits them. But I also want to make it clear the same Jesus who taught this also taught that we should do ALL WE CAN to alleviate their suffering and pain now.

This has also been my experience with agnostics/atheists, even though they don't call themselves "Christian" or need G!d to provide them with a handbook of morals.

Paul talked about people who followed God in their conscience, and showed by their actions that the law written in their hearts. That's still them following God. While God can speak to all of us within our hearts and show us the truth between right and wrong, it does not mean that at times he won't show us through something we read, or through some words spoken by others. I am not sure why you have such a chip on your shoulder with God, and presumably the bible (or are you including the Qu'ran, the Gita, Budha's writings ) etc within your statement of ''handbook of morals''?

 

[IowaGuy]

Hi Ciel, I think this topic of discussion has been very productive, I hope you feel the same. You have given me some ideas to ponder, I appreciate your perspective from the front lines of Africa. It also appears we have found some common ground; we both agree that greed and overpopulation are problems in today’s society and also for the future. It’s just that your beliefs are further on the spectrum that greed is the core issue for the world’s problems; and my beliefs are further on the spectrum that global overpopulation is the core issue for the world’s problems.

I'm from the UK, and the majority of people there are too busy struggling in crap jobs, working for money in a job they hate

Yes, I would say for a lot of people that is the reality. However, there are some (probably a minority) that work in a field they're passionate about and make a positive contribution to society. This is what I strive for in my work, I made a career change several years ago and now work in the environmental field. I make literally half the salary compared to what I used to make when I worked as a mechanical engineer. But I now have more free time for my family & community and feel like I make a positive impact on society with my career.

You know that most tax money goes towards the military.

Depends what country you're talking about. Some countries have very strong social programs and very little or no military expenditures. This is a political decision made by each particular country. So, to reinforce my earlier point, tax revenues can be used for very positive purposes in society if that society chooses to do so. The tax money itself is neutral. How a society chooses to use it makes it positive or negative. Last time I was through France and Spain, countries of high tax revenue, I didn’t see anyone starving on the street. Last time I was through Mexico and Venezuela (low tax revenue) I witnessed poverty like I have never seen before. They could make good use of some additional tax revenue, IMO.

In ancient Inca culture, “taxes” were paid via service hours to the government. Every adult in society would “volunteer” a couple months each year doing community projects such as building trails, community buildings, etc. If they had a particular specialty, that is what they usually “volunteered” to do. This would be the equivalent of a modern-day flat tax.

It is because of greed, man's desire for money and all that it can buy, that we have the problems that we face in the world. If greed (and by effect the need for money) is the problem (which I see it as being), money cannot be the solution.

Greed is bad, but money is neutral. I agree that greed cannot be the solution. But money can be. Money is a name for some object that can be exchanged for resources. Resources are what you need more of in Africa to feed the needy and buy medicine, so yes indeed it can be part of the solution.

As far as all the problems in the world, it's a little simplistic IMHO to attribute everything to greed. I agree with you that greed is bad, but the world’s problems are much more nuanced and can’t be solved with a one-size-fits all “love instead of greed” dogma. For one, such a dogma doesn’t address the core issue of overpopulation.

For example, let's roll back in time a bit, do you think all the problems of the world say, 10,000 years ago, were due to greed? How about 100,000 years ago? Humans have been on this earth 200,000 years. "Money" as we know it has only been around for a few thousand (depending how you define money). Greed is exacerbated as global population increases and subsequently there’s more demand for increasingly limited resources. So an anti-greed perspective is also pro-population control, IMHO.

I'm not talking about hunter-gatherer societies.

I think there is a lot to learn from early societies from a self-sustainability and empowerment perspective. “Help the needy” is a relatively modern phenomenon. When you read Lewis & Clark’s journal or the journals of early Catholic missionaries as they entered Native American villages for the first time, there is no mention of people waiting for a handout or suffering needlessly (given the times and no modern medicine). My point is, they fed & clothed themselves for 200,000 years without relying on Jesus (since he didn't even exist) nor an anthropomorphic God (which wasn’t part of their belief system). And from what I have read of their societies, “love of money” wasn't an issue for them since, for the most part, there were plenty of resources to go around. Where resources were scarce, conflict ensued, as it also does in today’s society.

However, now following the industrial revolution and with 7 billion people competing for the same resources (same planet Earth) greed is exacerbated and lack of resources for some people is inevitable and will only get worse in the future.

Jesus said love and greed are mutually exclusive reasons for doing something

Agreed. This is an excellent teaching of his. More common ground between you and I

Define what working for the love of money is?

Working for the love of money: Money is the main motivator for one's life work. While this is true for many people, for many others money is not the main motivator. Many would rather take less pay to pursue a career they’re passionate about which benefits society and at the same time to have more time to focus life energies on family & community. “Working” in such a way is not greedy, but instead shows love towards family & society.

I think you are kidding yourself if you think most people do something they are passionate about.

I never said most people, I said many people follow their passion, which is true. For those that don’t, that is their choice if they want to pursue money instead of their passion. They certainly have the power within themselves to pursue a passionate path if they want. I personally make a conscious choice to follow my passions and maximize my contributions to society via my work. I can only try to be the change I want to see in the world, I can’t force others to follow their true passions and make society a better place.

As a side note, have you ever read "Your Money or Your Life"? I think you would enjoy it as it expounds on some of your talking points (and some of mine).

The cool thing about what Jesus taught though, is that if there was no money and we all worked for love, sharing all the resources...

Again, “money” is just a mechanism to hold barter value. There were many Native American societies that functioned in this manner, sharing all resources. Tipis were not locked up and most resources were not owned by any one person but instead shared among the entire tribe. Food and water was easily supplied by Mother Nature. The early missionaries tried to force them out of their “Pagan” lifestyles and out of this nomadic, altruistic way of life.

I am sure the poor and starving have more faith in God than most people…… God will lift them up and they will inherit everlasting happiness. Jesus also told another story about how the poor who have experienced bad things in this life, will be lifted up and given paradise in the next. I am saying all of this, because it shows God's love for them, that there will be an end to their suffering, and that paradise awaits them.

This kind of mentality about Heaven awaiting the starving/poor and ending their suffering only disempowers them further. Karl Marx expresses this much more eloquently than I can:

“Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.”

Paul talked about people who followed God in their conscience, and showed by their actions that the law written in their hearts. That's still them following God. While God can speak to all of us within our hearts and show us the truth between right and wrong, it does not mean that at times he won't show us through something we read, or through some words spoken by others. I am not sure why you have such a chip on your shoulder with God

You’re again suggesting “God” is the only way, i.e. that he works in atheists’ hearts even though they don’t realize it.

I’m saying there are multiple paths, belief in God works for a lot of people (including many of my close relatives). If it makes them a better person and the world a better place then that’s great. But I don’t believe humans need a book of morals (bible or otherwise) from any Deity or organized religion to live an ethical life. After all, religious “books” have only existed for a few thousand years; how did humans know right from wrong for 195,000 years before that?

No chip on my shoulder with God. Though I grew up Southern Baptist I no longer believe in an anthropomorphic, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipresent God. The evidence I see in the world suggests such a God doesn’t exist. I left my childhood belief of that God back in the slums of Mexico City years ago. How anyone can walk through the barrios of Mexico City or Caracas, millions of people living in cardboard/tin shacks, with human urine/excrement literally running on the street, young girls being sold into prostitution, kids too young for prostitution begging when they should be in school; how someone could witness that first-hand and still believe in an all-powerful, benevolent God is beyond me. It actually makes me feel sick to my stomach as I’m typing this. I’m sure you see similar examples of suffering throughout Africa. I agree with you that we should take care of our fellow man in need because IMHO all they’re getting from faith in God is the opiate of the future “heaven” that awaits them.

The chip on my shoulder is with organized Christianity. I agree with many of Jesus’ teachings and try to incorporate them into my daily life. However, I think the teaching of heaven/hell by churches does more harm to society than good, and that believing that the poor will find a better place in heaven actually disempowers them to seek out a paradise on this earth in the here & now. I met scores of poor, suffering people when I lived in Mexico that were perfectly content to suffer through this existence because their church told them they would find happiness without suffering in Heaven someday. Instead of maximizing the present moment they seemed to be slogging through their current existence, with faith in something better in the afterlife. What a waste of the precious present moment.

I also think tithing is by and large a HUGE waste of resources that could serve a much higher purpose. Imagine what you could do in Africa with all the resources that are spent on the overhead of building/operating/maintaining brick-and-mortar churches. I think tithing is a great idea, but instead of giving to a “church,” people should give to a cause or to directly empower those in need. Or do as you are doing and tithe 100%. How many brick-and-mortar churches did Jesus build?

I also think that “mission” and “foreign aid” efforts have done more harm than good; instead of empowering local communities to live sustainably within the earth’s natural resources through family planning/birth control we are creating a human population timebomb (Malthusian Catastrophe) that is going to make the Irish Potato Famine pale in comparison. Mother Teresa, bless her heart (her heart was in the right place, she was just ignorant about the big-picture), she helped the poor and sick and needy and helped more babies survive to adulthood; but by withholding birth control options, she didn’t empower them to live sustainably long-term. Efforts such as these, while well-intended, only create large societies dependent on outside help for their survival. A welfare state/country of immense proportions. And the problems only get worse each subsequent year as their population increases yet they still have the same limited local resources.

Imagine the positive impact Catholicism could have on controlling overpopulation if the Pope would reverse his stance on birth control? Hopefully since you’re not Catholic your mission efforts consist in part of educating/empowering young African women to control the size of their families with something besides abstinence or the rhythm method…

We should be empowering sustainability across the globe, not putting a band-aid on the symptoms. Like the old proverb of not to giving a man a fish but instead teach him HOW to fish; we should be supplying “fishing poles” and birth control to 3rd world countries instead of bibles, food, and medicine. Western Greed is not holding these countries/peoples back, lack of empowerment is.

OK, I am stepping back off my soap box now

 

[radarmark]

CP and IG, I have found this exchange quite rewarding. Thank youse.

Pax et amore vincun t omnia... radarmark

 

[ciel_perdy]

Hi IowaGuy,

I agree with some of your thoughts, but some I don't. I still think greed is the root cause of all the problems we face in the world, even if that greed is represented by nothing more than the desire to do what we want, when we want, with little thought about God's will, or how it will effect those around us, so even over-population (in this sense) still comes down to greed (doing what 'I' want).

I don't agree with Christianity today. There is not a church I know of that teaches people to a: forsake all their material goods, and give the proceeds to the poor (a la Jesus' commands to his disciples), and b; a church that teaches it's people to stop working for money and start working for love, trusting in God to feed and clothes us (a la Jesus' in Matthew 6:24-34).
I travel and live with other christians who also follow the teaching of Jesus like the disciples did.

Thanks for sharing your experiences in Mexico. You are correct, I have seen many bad things in Africa too. However, the difference between me and you is that I know God is real and with these people, even if it's just in love from a volunteer helping them, or in the secret place of heir heart. I believe if I can do all I can to love people, then it is God in me that is loving them. Perhaps the reason why no one believe in God anymore, is because the majority of people don't have any love in them? ( I wanted to clarify that that comment is not directed towards you. Just in case you think it was. I think many people who don't believe in God are just reacting to some 'god' they have been told to believe in, either from their up-bringing/church/friends/or their own opinion, and not the true God, 'out there' beyond all our vain imaginations. And as such, they could actually BE following the true God, albeit unknowingly).

While I do see the Kingdom of Heaven as being a literally place on earth in the future, it's starts now. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is at hand, and that it is within us. Everything he taught was about getting us to start living in the Kingdom here and now, in the present moment, changing the world for the better. With regards to the poor, there is much in Jesus' and his disciples teachings, to suggest that the most important thing is that we love them, we give them food, we clothe them, visit them in prision, when they are sick, educate them, offer them (as you would say) empowerment. As John wrote, ''if you see someone in need, and you have werewith to help him, but do not, how dwelleth the love of God in you?''. I would feel wrong, going up to someone dying of starvation and preaching to them, that God will provide, just have faith, and depart by saying God bless you. No. Jesus made it clear, our love must be love in action and not just in words. I would rather spend my life showing love and aiding/empowering the poor, than preach to them about their need to have faith. For in the end, the really poor people of this world, are the one who are rich in faith.

BTW- because I don't go in for institutional churchianity, I don't do tithing. However, I agree with your points re tithing. For me though, I still come back to Jesus and what he taught, he didn't say give a bit of money to the poor, he said sell everything you have and give it to the poor, then come work for me (help the poor, teach them, etc) and God will look after you. I have found it to be true.

Well, I will leave it there, it's late here. I appreciate your comments and patience in explaining your viewpoints. I'm not sure how much further I will participate in this thread, though I hope to engage in other threads with you, as and when time permits.

paix, ciel

 

[donnann]

Hi IowaGuy,

I agree with some of your thoughts, but some I don't. I still think greed is the root cause of all the problems we face in the world, even if that greed is represented by nothing more than the desire to do what we want, when we want, with little thought about God's will, or how it will effect those around us, so even over-population (in this sense) still comes down to greed (doing what 'I' want).

I don't agree with Christianity today. There is not a church I know of that teaches people to a: forsake all their material goods, and give the proceeds to the poor (a la Jesus' commands to his disciples), and b; a church that teaches it's people to stop working for money and start working for love, trusting in God to feed and clothes us (a la Jesus' in Matthew 6:24-34).
I travel and live with other christians who also follow the teaching of Jesus like the disciples did.

Thanks for sharing your experiences in Mexico. You are correct, I have seen many bad things in Africa too. However, the difference between me and you is that I know God is real and with these people, even if it's just in love from a volunteer helping them, or in the secret place of heir heart. I believe if I can do all I can to love people, then it is God in me that is loving them. Perhaps the reason why no one believe in God anymore, is because the majority of people don't have any love in them? ( I wanted to clarify that that comment is not directed towards you. Just in case you think it was. I think many people who don't believe in God are just reacting to some 'god' they have been told to believe in, either from their up-bringing/church/friends/or their own opinion, and not the true God, 'out there' beyond all our vain imaginations. And as such, they could actually BE following the true God, albeit unknowingly).

While I do see the Kingdom of Heaven as being a literally place on earth in the future, it's starts now. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is at hand, and that it is within us. Everything he taught was about getting us to start living in the Kingdom here and now, in the present moment, changing the world for the better. With regards to the poor, there is much in Jesus' and his disciples teachings, to suggest that the most important thing is that we love them, we give them food, we clothe them, visit them in prision, when they are sick, educate them, offer them (as you would say) empowerment. As John wrote, ''if you see someone in need, and you have werewith to help him, but do not, how dwelleth the love of God in you?''. I would feel wrong, going up to someone dying of starvation and preaching to them, that God will provide, just have faith, and depart by saying God bless you. No. Jesus made it clear, our love must be love in action and not just in words. I would rather spend my life showing love and aiding/empowering the poor, than preach to them about their need to have faith. For in the end, the really poor people of this world, are the one who are rich in faith.

BTW- because I don't go in for institutional churchianity, I don't do tithing. However, I agree with your points re tithing. For me though, I still come back to Jesus and what he taught, he didn't say give a bit of money to the poor, he said sell everything you have and give it to the poor, then come work for me (help the poor, teach them, etc) and God will look after you. I have found it to be true.

Well, I will leave it there, it's late here. I appreciate your comments and patience in explaining your viewpoints. I'm not sure how much further I will participate in this thread, though I hope to engage in other threads with you, as and when time permits.

paix, ciel

Part of being a real man is protecting your wife. GOD protects his wife.

 

[donnann]

I've actually heard that before and it makes sense. I am presently trying to wean myself off meat, but I find it difficult to do. Maybe one day, eh?

It takes a while because your body is used to the other stuff. Once you eat that way for a while, it might taste bad at first but then it starts to taste like food from paradise.....sooooo goood. Your body is fooled into thinking that other stuff tastes good but it doesnt. Been there , done that and know that. I have chosen to go back to eating that way instead of being forced into eating the other way. So stick in there it will get better tasteing. There are meats from veggie sources and once you get that other stuff out of your system it starts to taste so much better and you realize how nasty dead animal flesh is.

 

[donnann]

It takes a while because your body is used to the other stuff. Once you eat that way for a while, it might taste bad at first but then it starts to taste like food from paradise.....sooooo goood. Your body is fooled into thinking that other stuff tastes good but it doesnt. Been there , done that and know that. I have chosen to go back to eating that way instead of being forced into eating the other way. So stick in there it will get better tasteing. There are meats from veggie sources and once you get that other stuff out of your system it starts to taste so much better and you realize how nasty dead animal flesh is.

You also know the difference between other things related to paradise. When the wrong person touches psycholocially or otherwise you may think it feels good like you think dead animal flesh tastes good when its really rancid and nasty but you start to realize the difference.